Dr Zoidberg

He did have a PD130 engined octavia for a good while before , and a VS for not very long

__________________
Alex

"I laugh in the face of danger, then I hide until it goes away"

www.drzoidberg.co.uk

Johnnyc

Ah, but he hasn't experienced the effect of ASR on his current car. I'd imagine the effect of ASR on the Superb might be a bit different given the fact it's bigger.

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Johnny

"Americans have different ways of saying things. They say "elevator", we say "lift" ... they say "President", we say "stupid psychopathic git."

johnjohnhealy

Yes really,

whilst you are correct in what you are saying, ESP will also brake wheels that are spinning due to excessive power being applied, it wont only brake the wheels that have grip when your sliding either, it will use a combination of allowing power to certain wheels and braking certain wheels, it does not do this 'on the fly' though, it does it according to a preset programme for each set of variables. e.g. if the computer detects wheel x is rotating at a different speed to wheel y then the car must be sliding in a certain direction and it will implement whatever strategy it has been told will 'in theory' correct the situation.

My Superb has ESP and it does NOT reduce the engines power noticeably atall unless you are doing something really stupid like attempting a burn out or driving on sheet ice.

If it wasn't for the little orange light flashing occasionaly when you pull out of a junction in a 'spirited' manner in the wet, you wouldn't even know it was doing anything, aside from a lack of wheelspin, which i'm sure many people would attribute to their supreme driving skill rather than the ability of the car!!

I will be getting an octavia II for a couple of days this week so i'll be able to compare how the other systems work (EDL ASR etc) assuming of course the Octy doesn't have ESP

It's all pretty irrelevant at the end of the day though I guess as really and truthfully if any of us are driving around with our little orange lights flashing than we really are out driving both the ability of the car and ourselves!

Wasn't getting at anyone in particular and obviously I respect other peoples opinions and rights to turn off if they so wish, just having trouble understanding why is all!?

logiclee

It's not actually ESP that brakes the spinning wheel and controls power.
Cars with ESP also have ASR and EDL. If you accelerate off the line and spin a wheel or apply too much power in a corner then EDL and ASR will operate to control the traction. The ESP works in addition to ASR and EDL as it also receives information from steering angle sensors and yaw sensors. From this information it determines whether the car is following your intended line and will apply brakes to try and control understeer or oversteer. If you are loosing traction on a driven wheel due to applying too much power for the road conditions then EDL will apply the brake to that wheel upto a certain speed or if you are above the EDL speed or both wheels are loosing traction then ASR will cut the power. Cars without ESP but with ASR and EDL will do the same to the driven wheels off the line or in corners but do not have the ability to try and control understeer and oversteer. ESP can further cut the power if required if the car is still not maintaining it's given line but it doesn't use EDL to transfer power to control understeer or oversteer as part of it's software.

The Fabia vRS has never been quoted as having EDL but other models do. If this is true it may be the reason why vRS models struggle off the line with ASR on as the only thing the electronics do is cut power rather than improve traction. Cars with EDL do not notice the power being dropped as much because the torque to the spinning wheel is transfered to the wheel with more traction. Cars without EDL just have the power cut to the spinning wheel.

The Fabia vRS as well as some Superb models also have MSR which regulates engine power so you do not cause the front whhels to skid by changing down to early in poor conditions.

AFIAK if you turn off ESP or ASR the system still leaves EDL and MSR active (Where Fitted)

Cheers
Lee

__________________
Another Ex-Scooby owner.
Mondeo TDCi 130 6 Speed Ghia, Octavia 1.9TDi Elegance (Now Sold), Fabia 1.9TDi Comfort and Felicia 1.9D GLi

johnjohnhealy

It's all a game of letters really, we're both pretty much saying ultimately the same thing but just disagreeing on what combination of letters do it!

Cars with ESP have EDL (electronic diff lock) but not as standard though, you have to specify it as an option as with ESP, but not ASR, we have the slightly different TCS (traction control system).

ESP is fully capable of braking wheels itself but it also works in conjuction with the TCS, EDL, ABS & Brake Assist.

I quote from the manual -

" The direction which the driver wishes to take is determined based on the steering angle and the speed of the vehicle and is constantly compared with the actual behaviour of the vehicle, if differences exist, such as the car beginning to skid, the ESP will automatically brake the appropriate wheel and reduce the engine speed."

ESP & TRC can be switched off but you are correct in that EDL cannot be switched off, interestingly though the manual states -

"The EDL switches off automatically if unusually severe stresses exist in order to avoid excessive heat generation in the disc brake on the wheel which is being braked. the vehicle can continue to be driven and has the same characteristics as a vehicle not fitted with EDL. The EDL switches on again automatically as soon as the brake has cooled down."

I also like the quote at the end of each 'intelligent Technology' section in the manual -

"This control process is accompanied by noises" (the sort of noises you hear as you plough through a hedge?)

logiclee

I think we more or less agree.

I had chance to review VAG's logic control for it's traction control systems when doing a PLC course a few yeas ago.

If you look at the software it's very easy to see where ESP is an add on to ASR and EDL.

I can't for the life of me work out why some models have ASR and EDL but no MSR and others in the same range have ASR and MSR but no EDL etc.etc. When the car already has the hardware why only load up some of the software? . I wonder if the brake setup on the Fabia vRS makes it impossible to enable EDL

Gets very confusing.

Cheers
Lee

__________________
Another Ex-Scooby owner.
Mondeo TDCi 130 6 Speed Ghia, Octavia 1.9TDi Elegance (Now Sold), Fabia 1.9TDi Comfort and Felicia 1.9D GLi

Tom_vRS

How can the power be stopped to one wheel only if there is no EDL? I was under the impression ASR on the vRS Fabia just limits torque to both wheels...

__________________
97/R BMW 328i in Boston Green.

logiclee

Yep you are correct.

On cars with open diffs if one wheel looses traction on poor surfaces and starts to spin hardly any torque is applied to the other wheel that isn't spinning and has more traction.
On cars with out EDL the ASR just throttles back the engine until the wheel that is spinning regains traction.
On cars with EDL the spinning wheel is braked and the engine torque is transfered to the wheel that wasn't spinning and has better traction.
If both wheels spin in cars with EDL the the ASR will cut the power.

It's probably why those without EDL are complaining that ASR is intrusive yet those with EDL hardly ever notice it.

On Fords turning off the traction control also turns off Fords version of EDL.
It's amazing to see on snow and ice. With it turned off and a bit of power on the car will go nowhere and one wheel will spin. Turn it back on and the car just drives away (unless it's sheet ice).
Ford demo'd the system when the Mondeo first came out and a TC equipped Mondeo could get further than a Sierra 4X4 and they have LSD's centre and rear.

Cheers
Lee

__________________
Another Ex-Scooby owner.
Mondeo TDCi 130 6 Speed Ghia, Octavia 1.9TDi Elegance (Now Sold), Fabia 1.9TDi Comfort and Felicia 1.9D GLi

spinndrift

I'm amazed that so many people are 'outraged' that some of us turn off ASR.

It's a personal choice. I never had traction controls in any of my previous cars and they certain don't make a better driver - if anything they can help hide your bad habits.

As for power sliding a front wheel drive car

Understeer and lift off oversteer is what you'll be getting.

I like to feel what the car is doing and use my skill as a driver to control the car. If I was dependant on driver aids I wouldn't be building the Subtle because that ain't going to have any kind of traction control but is going to require skill to keep it under control.

It's down to the driver what they want to do.

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Rev. Andy
The Rallying Reverend
www.miniroadrunnerrallying.co.uk
Engine data aquisition is fun

robmawer

...or torque steer.


Rob.

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spinndrift

In a fabia

__________________
Rev. Andy
The Rallying Reverend
www.miniroadrunnerrallying.co.uk
Engine data aquisition is fun

robmawer

Should be possible...wet road, full throttle, cold budget tyres...


Rob.

__________________

spinndrift

__________________
Rev. Andy
The Rallying Reverend
www.miniroadrunnerrallying.co.uk
Engine data aquisition is fun