What's in a map?

DaveH · 24-02-2004, 20:01

Although a while off yet, I've started reading up on the various 'chipping' options (4x4). Using this and other forums, you soon start to get a feeling for who is well regarded and who is not. Information on the likely results of the various companies' remaps is also relatively easy to find but does anyone know what is actually done by each company in their remap?

For example, APR state that their chips are 1 bar and for the sake of engine longevity and driveability they don't 'boost spike' like other companies. Revo state that they change 32 (from memory) tables in the ECU to get their map, whereas other companies only change a few, implying that more is better. Is the technical info out there to allow a detailed comparison or should I get back in my mechanical engineer box?

Real Skoda · 24-02-2004, 21:47

Back in ya box!

What do you think? APR, Revo, AMD, Jabba, etc all spend thousands of pounds on developing their software. Surely they are not gonna give everything away for the competition to copy?

No doubt Ross will agree

I'm making a guess that they won't tell you exactly what they've changed the maps to. However, for a small fee you could buy a bit of software and read what thy've put in the various tables, as most companies use the same base maps and the same mapping software.

Awaits Q and Ross......

DaveH · 24-02-2004, 21:54

I don't think its unreasonable to know e.g. what boost levels they're running. APR quite happily state that they run 1 bar, am I really any closer to starting up my own chipping business, don't think so?! How are you supposed to judge how safely/well engineered the product is otherwise, I for one would prefer to sacrifice an amount of bhp if it meant a 100% increase in engine longevity.

Quinten · 24-02-2004, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real Skoda

Back in ya box!

[snip]

Awaits Q and Ross......

Oh crap!

DaveH · 24-02-2004, 22:14

This is a wee bit confusing, how come some posts were done tomorrow? Anyway, I think analysing each map is beyond my requirements (and capability). Lets come out and say it then, enough of the political wording, most companies seem to offer 210bhp, 220lbft or there abouts. Jabba offer 230bhp typically. Is this purely down to the fact that they map per engine and other software is cautious to ensure compatibility across all engines or do Jabba tweak settings, e.g. boost, that bit further than everyone else? (One and the same thing?) Jabba have an excellent reputation, I was just wondering thats all.

Quinten · 24-02-2004, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveH

This is a wee bit confusing, how come some posts were done tomorrow?

Server glitch. Should be resolved after 5am tomorrow

Quinten · 25-02-2004, 04:47

What do you think? APR, Revo, AMD, Jabba, etc all spend thousands of pounds on developing their software. Surely they are not gonna give everything away for the competition to copy?

Lummox · 25-02-2004, 04:49

Indeed

Nigel26 · 25-02-2004, 11:29

i wouldnt nessasarily want to know the exact ins and outs of the mapping just that i was getting what i wanted from the remap, its seems Jabba are the main shakers in this area as they tailor the map to your requirements (from what i can gather).

e.g. you can have the car peaking at 220bhp but have a better shove lower down than say someone that wanted 230bhp at top end.

i might be wrong but thats the way i've interpreted it anyway

badger5 · 25-02-2004, 15:36

Its usually a case of what suit you best. Features/power/torque/driveability/cost

Higher boost low end usually means more heat at high rpms... and lower peak power. Higher peak torque at lower rpms usually runs out of puff at high rpms.... What you can't have from a stock system is both ends of the scale from an otherwise stock motor. Nice big efficient FMIC's and things can change for the better.

DaveH · 25-02-2004, 22:25

I guess its all down to reputation then, suppose its usually the best method anyway. I get paid to investigate, assess and recommend engineering upgrades, I guess I just can't help wanting to get down into the detail of how each company achieves their gains and why they aren't all equal. Someone put me out of my misery!

Stuart_J · 26-02-2004, 06:39

The results are also dependant on fuel, ambient temperature & also different rollers will give differing figures as you probably know.
The best way to get an idea is by the reputation of the company. From a personal point of view I would go Jabba, they have mapped both our cars & the results are excellent. Also pre Cannonball I wanted the 4x4 "stretched" as far as possible but they could not be persuaded to push it too far despite my requests so I get the feeling that they arent going to do anything that will be seriously detrimental to the longevity of the Engine, obviously if you increase stresses it probably wont last as long but Jons Octy which had been Jabbad was well over 100000 miles before it broke & the breakage can be traced to a component failure that was not related to the map, We all know that car was "well used"

Its really down to who you feel happy with, I suggest you talk to Jabba, AMD etc & see who gives you the best feel & get a drive in cars they have mapped. Its not all about BHP/Torque figures, its how driveable the overall package is & how it suits you.
My old Scoob was 292 bhp but the powerband was limited & it took time to wind up, the Octy is 228 but is much easier to drive & feels quicker.

Stuart

**TaviaRS** · 26-02-2004, 08:08

Dave,

As Stuart has said there are a lot of variables. However, there are a couple of things to bear in mind:

1. The figures are irrelevant, IMHO. It is the area below the lines that counts and the shape of the curves. I have seen certain maps provided by some of the tuners, on various rollers, that, yes, they do provide a big power figure. When you look at the curve it goes up and down like a whore's draws. There is use of the over boost facility to give a good peak figure but when you drive it on the road you get spikes and surges whereas one with a nice, clean and consistent curve is easier to drive and is quicker in everyday driving.
2. A custom map will be better, again IMHO, than an off the shelf one size fits all type map. It is specific to your car and to your driving. When I had mine mapped I was very specific about the type of driving I do and how I wanted the powerband.
3. Your gut feel when talking to the person who is going to tinker with your pride and joy. If you feel unsure of them or their competence, walk away. However, if they are prepared to talk to you and can expalin exactly what they are going to do to your car and why - go for it. One of the reasons I went to Jabba was they were quite happy to talk to me about what they were doing and why. Also liked that when he'd done the initial map, we stood and looked at the curves and I said, could you shift that part of the curve to there, hold that part for slightly longer etc etc He said yes or no and would give reasons if he'd said no.

My advice, talk to the people you are going to spend your hard earned with. See what they'll tell you, if it's nothing, why won't they tell you? Also, I'm guessing, you should be able to see through the waffle and the sales bull (seeing as you're an engineer), if it doesn't sound right, it probably isn't.

Jon

DaveH · 26-02-2004, 08:37

Cheers for that fellas, sound advice. I do like the sound of the interative process that seems to be a Jabba remap, I didn't realise you had the chance to comment on the map and ask for changes. I'll be coming down to the national day to blag a few passenger rides in various 'chipped' cars and of course canvassing the opinion of the owners. Any info on how long it will be before Jabba are doing OBD custom remapping?

24-02-2004, 20:01	#1
DaveH Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sheffield Posts: 806 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	What's in a map? Although a while off yet, I've started reading up on the various 'chipping' options (4x4). Using this and other forums, you soon start to get a feeling for who is well regarded and who is not. Information on the likely results of the various companies' remaps is also relatively easy to find but does anyone know what is actually done by each company in their remap? For example, APR state that their chips are 1 bar and for the sake of engine longevity and driveability they don't 'boost spike' like other companies. Revo state that they change 32 (from memory) tables in the ECU to get their map, whereas other companies only change a few, implying that more is better. Is the technical info out there to allow a detailed comparison or should I get back in my mechanical engineer box?

25-02-2004, 04:47	#7
Quinten playing dadsie Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: fast lane Posts: 10,021 Thanks: 19 Thanked 40 Times in 37 Posts	What do you think? APR, Revo, AMD, Jabba, etc all spend thousands of pounds on developing their software. Surely they are not gonna give everything away for the competition to copy? __________________ Awooga!!!

25-02-2004, 04:49	#8
Lummox U18 Automotive Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Newport Pagnell Posts: 21,762 Thanks: 22 Thanked 636 Times in 545 Posts	Indeed __________________ Unit 18 Automotive Services now open Servicing, repairs, modifications you name it we do it. Cupra console bushes at special price, PM for a very competitive quote.

25-02-2004, 15:36	#10
badger5 Briskodian Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: nr Glos,UK Posts: 499 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Its usually a case of what suit you best. Features/power/torque/driveability/cost Higher boost low end usually means more heat at high rpms... and lower peak power. Higher peak torque at lower rpms usually runs out of puff at high rpms.... What you can't have from a stock system is both ends of the scale from an otherwise stock motor. Nice big efficient FMIC's and things can change for the better. __________________ 517bhp / 378lbft SEAT Ibiza Badger Mobile

26-02-2004, 06:39	#12
Stuart_J Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Winchester Posts: 5,600 Thanks: 38 Thanked 81 Times in 74 Posts	The results are also dependant on fuel, ambient temperature & also different rollers will give differing figures as you probably know. The best way to get an idea is by the reputation of the company. From a personal point of view I would go Jabba, they have mapped both our cars & the results are excellent. Also pre Cannonball I wanted the 4x4 "stretched" as far as possible but they could not be persuaded to push it too far despite my requests so I get the feeling that they arent going to do anything that will be seriously detrimental to the longevity of the Engine, obviously if you increase stresses it probably wont last as long but Jons Octy which had been Jabbad was well over 100000 miles before it broke & the breakage can be traced to a component failure that was not related to the map, We all know that car was "well used" Its really down to who you feel happy with, I suggest you talk to Jabba, AMD etc & see who gives you the best feel & get a drive in cars they have mapped. Its not all about BHP/Torque figures, its how driveable the overall package is & how it suits you. My old Scoob was 292 bhp but the powerband was limited & it took time to wind up, the Octy is 228 but is much easier to drive & feels quicker. Stuart __________________ Speed is an addiction for which thankfully there is no cure

24-02-2004, 21:47	#2
Real Skoda BANNED Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southend Posts: 522 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Back in ya box! What do you think? APR, Revo, AMD, Jabba, etc all spend thousands of pounds on developing their software. Surely they are not gonna give everything away for the competition to copy? No doubt Ross will agree I'm making a guess that they won't tell you exactly what they've changed the maps to. However, for a small fee you could buy a bit of software and read what thy've put in the various tables, as most companies use the same base maps and the same mapping software. Awaits Q and Ross......

24-02-2004, 21:54	#3
DaveH Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sheffield Posts: 806 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I don't think its unreasonable to know e.g. what boost levels they're running. APR quite happily state that they run 1 bar, am I really any closer to starting up my own chipping business, don't think so?! How are you supposed to judge how safely/well engineered the product is otherwise, I for one would prefer to sacrifice an amount of bhp if it meant a 100% increase in engine longevity.

24-02-2004, 22:14	#5
DaveH Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sheffield Posts: 806 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	This is a wee bit confusing, how come some posts were done tomorrow? Anyway, I think analysing each map is beyond my requirements (and capability). Lets come out and say it then, enough of the political wording, most companies seem to offer 210bhp, 220lbft or there abouts. Jabba offer 230bhp typically. Is this purely down to the fact that they map per engine and other software is cautious to ensure compatibility across all engines or do Jabba tweak settings, e.g. boost, that bit further than everyone else? (One and the same thing?) Jabba have an excellent reputation, I was just wondering thats all.

25-02-2004, 11:29	#9
Nigel26 Briskodian Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Walsall, West Midlands Posts: 2,298 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i wouldnt nessasarily want to know the exact ins and outs of the mapping just that i was getting what i wanted from the remap, its seems Jabba are the main shakers in this area as they tailor the map to your requirements (from what i can gather). e.g. you can have the car peaking at 220bhp but have a better shove lower down than say someone that wanted 230bhp at top end. i might be wrong but thats the way i've interpreted it anyway

25-02-2004, 22:25	#11
DaveH Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sheffield Posts: 806 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I guess its all down to reputation then, suppose its usually the best method anyway. I get paid to investigate, assess and recommend engineering upgrades, I guess I just can't help wanting to get down into the detail of how each company achieves their gains and why they aren't all equal. Someone put me out of my misery!

26-02-2004, 08:08	#13
TaviaRS Dinosaur Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: North of the Watford Gap Posts: 14,931 Thanks: 19 Thanked 42 Times in 38 Posts	Dave, As Stuart has said there are a lot of variables. However, there are a couple of things to bear in mind: 1. The figures are irrelevant, IMHO. It is the area below the lines that counts and the shape of the curves. I have seen certain maps provided by some of the tuners, on various rollers, that, yes, they do provide a big power figure. When you look at the curve it goes up and down like a whore's draws. There is use of the over boost facility to give a good peak figure but when you drive it on the road you get spikes and surges whereas one with a nice, clean and consistent curve is easier to drive and is quicker in everyday driving. 2. A custom map will be better, again IMHO, than an off the shelf one size fits all type map. It is specific to your car and to your driving. When I had mine mapped I was very specific about the type of driving I do and how I wanted the powerband. 3. Your gut feel when talking to the person who is going to tinker with your pride and joy. If you feel unsure of them or their competence, walk away. However, if they are prepared to talk to you and can expalin exactly what they are going to do to your car and why - go for it. One of the reasons I went to Jabba was they were quite happy to talk to me about what they were doing and why. Also liked that when he'd done the initial map, we stood and looked at the curves and I said, could you shift that part of the curve to there, hold that part for slightly longer etc etc He said yes or no and would give reasons if he'd said no. My advice, talk to the people you are going to spend your hard earned with. See what they'll tell you, if it's nothing, why won't they tell you? Also, I'm guessing, you should be able to see through the waffle and the sales bull (seeing as you're an engineer), if it doesn't sound right, it probably isn't. Jon __________________ A jolly sensible Mercedes E class saloon in a rather fetching bluey grey colour. No it isn't fast, no it isn't modded, and yes, it will still eat your Fabia for breakfast. Official mobile chicane for Briskoda trackdays

26-02-2004, 08:37	#14
DaveH Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sheffield Posts: 806 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Cheers for that fellas, sound advice. I do like the sound of the interative process that seems to be a Jabba remap, I didn't realise you had the chance to comment on the map and ask for changes. I'll be coming down to the national day to blag a few passenger rides in various 'chipped' cars and of course canvassing the opinion of the owners. Any info on how long it will be before Jabba are doing OBD custom remapping?

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