One For The DSG's

[Supurbia]

Hi, bit of a section jump for me as I'm a Superb driver, in every way

What I'd like to ask you DSG owners is this, how reliable is the box and what is the driving experience like over a conventional tip box, mpg etc.

Thx in advance.

[peterg1955]

There's been a couple of threads on here previously about this and from memory there haven't really been any problems with them apart from the odd isolated one.

Speaking from personal experience, we have 2 cars with the DSG box :

54 reg VW Golf mkV 2.0 TDi currently on 55000 miles, average mpg 45.6 - used on commute from Basingstoke to Hammersmith 1-2 times a week plus other journeys of various types

05 re Octy II 2.0 TDi now at 26000 miles, average mpg 47.9 - used daily for 25 mile each way commute on A and B roads at er, brisk speeds

They're great cars to drive and it's very rarely that I wish I was in a proper manual box car and never in a old style slushmatic

[Ray_Green]

Originally Posted by Supurbia

Hi, bit of a section jump for me as I'm a Superb driver, in every way

What I'd like to ask you DSG owners is this, how reliable is the box and what is the driving experience like over a conventional tip box, mpg etc.

Thx in advance.

1.9 TDI DSG Estate. I love the DSG, I have been driving for 33 years and its the best gear box I have ever used.

I have never driven any other Tip box.

I have just completed 3500 miles and I am getting just short of 41 MPG. I work out my MPG by replacing the fuel and using a calculator. My on board computer reports 44 MPG.
I would guess my MPG will get better as the car covers more miles.

My driving style is progressive



Its Tommy 2 tums good

[Fluffmeister]

My pd140 dsg has done 10k miles now since picking it up at the end of september.

I quite like the dsg, in lazy mode it drives well, turbine smooth and very quick gear changes, manual mode is great and offers a lot more engine breaking than you get in a true auto, so makes the slug fun.

From distant memory I had a passat 1.8T Sport with tiptronic and I don't remember the manual or sport mode being anything like as much fun as the dsg can be.

My only standing criticism is that it can get confused on the odd occaision when coasting down then getting on the gass again straight away, and in sport mode the change between 1st and second is a bit clunky as it's over in a split second.

I only have a dsg because of a recent shoulder op and an upcoming hip operation, after that I would probably go for another DSG as it's so handy in traffic and fun when you want it, but NOT in a diesel (best start digging deep in the pockets then )

[runboy]

I'd echo Fluffmeister - on the whole the DSG is great, but I do a lot of city driving and every now and again the DSG can be caught out and be doing something you don't want it to do. For example if you come off the gas because some twit in another car is hesitant then you want to get out of the way quickly the DSG may be in the wrong gear or just changing gear as you put your foot on the gas and you get a clonk and sometimes it will just be in the wrong gear for what you want but no auto box can ever see what you see and be ready 100% of the time.

On the whole I would have another DSG car.

[Tom_vRS]

With the gearbox confusion, how simple is it to anticipate that you'll need a lower gear than the box is in, and just pop it down a cog??

[Octavia5]

I've run a dozen different Auto cars from different manufacturers and would say the DSG in my PD140 is the best of them all. It changes gear quicker than a manual and has no 'auto slip'. MPG will depend on how you drive the car as there is no loss of mpg from a DSG box as it has no fluid flywheel.

I would say the 3 mode DSG is the best box on the market, pity Skoda do not offer the Flappy Paddles you can get on the Audi but it is easy enough to use the gear leaver to flick up or don the box in manual mode.

Only downside is if you want to upgrade the power a bit as the torque limit on the DSG box is 350nm according to VAG though several people appear to be running 360nm - with a Dragon Tuning Box - without any problems. Some tuners offer to remap to 380nm but there appears to be no one who has run this for any length of time to report on its reliability.

[Fluffmeister]

Originally Posted by Octavia5

without any problems. Some tuners offer to remap to 380nm but there appears to be no one who has run this for any length of time to report on its reliability.

I know someone who has run for over 10K with 400NM and there is another brisky member with over 36k miles on a map producing 400NM.

There is a good post on UK MKIV's about DSG, and as I mentioned in a previous post, I have a friend from the bike club who has a friend who works for Bentley in Crewe and has had personal experience of factory VW's (supercharged R32, big turbo conversions on MkV Gti) on standard DSG box's.

It's the traction control module that is programmed for 350nm so they say

Dsg - Jalopnik

And shamelessly stolen from tyresmoke

"

The O2E DSG box has exactly the same torque rating as the O2M box found in manual R32's, and that is 350Nm or
approx 258Lb/ft of torque. Internally at VW the gearboxes are known as O2E 350 and O2M 350 because of these ratings. (on Audi 3.2 TT’s they are know as MQ-350 and DQ-350 gearbox’s) same gearbox’s same torque ratings.
VW also produce an O2E 280 which has a 280Nm torque rating for lesser powered VW models.
The weight of the DSG Box is approx 95kg by the way of which the special gear oil weighs 5.3kgs!!, I know this because I have completed a competitive analysis and tested the gearbox then taken one apart to inspect it's internals. We had no problems with it while it was tested at the proving ground.

Anyway, that’s not to say that the O2E or O2M box's can't handle more torque as anybody knows, with the current
crop of conversions from HGP-Turbo, EIP, HPA, Rothe etc.

HGP also produce a Single-Turbo conversion for the DSG with 400ps and 515nm of torque, so it kind of puts to bed he rumor
that the box is the "weak" point of the car.
The limiting factor of the box is not the gears or clutch packs but the programming of TCM (transmission control
module). The DSG TCM is programmed such that, if the input shaft sees more than a certain amount of torque (350 Nm)
it tells the ECU to dial down on the engine power. I assume this has been done by VW engineers to prolong the life
of the box and preserve clutch packs and brake bands, as I have heard that the clutch packs are designed to last the life of the car without out ever
needing to be changed... this statement comes from an article written in ATZ/MZT Engineering magazine (from Germany) in March 2004
by Dr. Frank Günter, Director of VW Program Management for BorgWarner Transmission Systems, who helped develop the
gearbox.

Ok, back on track, a certain tuning company built at VW’s request a few single turbo R32 DSG’s for VW to stress
test their DSG’s at Ehra-Lessien proving grounds and VW have logged at full throttle 5500rpm launches with no
reported issues. I believe this to be single turbo engines pushing out approx 400ps similar to HGP’s 400PS
conversion.
The TCM’s were modified to increase the standard launch control rpm’s from 3500 to 5500 to further enhance
acceleration times, and test the transmissions durability.
They also were able to reprogramme the oil pressure regulators of the clutch packs (hydralic controls & pumps)to simulate higher clamping
loads and hence enable the clutch packs to compress further to enable them to handle more torque without slipping.
It should also be noted that the clutch packs are sprayed with oil to lubricate and to help dissipate heat
during certain driving conditions.

The probable reason why AMD and other tuning companies in the UK have limited torque increases on R32 and 3.2 TT's conversions is that have not yet been brave enough to dig into the gearbox internals and modify the TCM's to increase the oil pressure in the box and therefore increase it's torque rating.
So it's not that it can't be done, you just have to know what you're doing.
HPG Tuning in Germany can carry out this modification, and do for there 400Ps conversion, Wendland MotorenTecknik produce engines conversions for DSG equipped vehilces up to 310ps/360Nm torque.

I hope the above goes some way to halt the general assumption that O2E’s can’t handle more torque.
"

[runboy]

Originally Posted by Tom_vRS

With the gearbox confusion, how simple is it to anticipate that you'll need a lower gear than the box is in, and just pop it down a cog??

Sounds like a solution but you would need to leave the box in manual which negates some of the benefits of the auto. You could whip it over into manual when the need arises but you'd need to have a look at what gear you were in to decide which you wanted to be in - not sure if it's worth it over a rough change now and again - it doesn't happen too often.

In fast paced Norfolk the tractor would have taken your nose off by then - gotta be quick with them thar tractoors!

[cng]

I have driven 12000 in a 2.0 TDI DSG. Like the other postings I would recommend it. I test drove a manual and a DSG when buying a new car last year and fell in love with the DSG then. I suspect may be slightly less economical than the manual as the DSG is a bit heavier than a standard set up and I think top gear ( 6th ) is slightly lower geared than the manual ( 70mph indicated speed about 2150 rpm ). I average about 45mpg on the readout , very mixed motoring.

It can be a hoot when you are a hurry as the up changes can very quick and unlike a manual you don't have let up on the loud pedal.

If I had to pick faults , I'd say as others have said it can be a bit hesitant from standstill and a bit jerky if you confuse it.

It obviously isn't a cheap option, but I hope it is a desirable one come trade in time.

[Ray_Green]

Originally Posted by cng

It obviously isn't a cheap option, but I hope it is a desirable one come trade in time.

But worth every penny

[slider]

This is my first auto and I totally love it. I went to test drive a manual when I changed my car two years ago and had never even considered an auto. Dealer asked if I would like to try the DSG and a thought why note......an hour later I had bought one!!!!!!!!!

It is such a relaxing car to drive, but I do echo he comments above that it very occasionally get caught in the wrong gear in very specific circumstance. i.e. when the box thinks you a slowing for a round a bout then you suddenly what to take off again.

My box was replaced at 40K miles but that was due to damage from an external object (long story on another thread) and no fault of box its self. This has however given me confidence to run the car to a much higher final mileage as I had a nagging thought in my head about the possibilities of an expensive repair bill a few years down the line.

Fuel consumption is a trip computer average of 52 mpg but i suspect this is a bit optimistic. Interestingly I had a manual courtesy car for 3500 ml and returned the same consumption (admittedly this was an almost new car and was not broken in).

While I had the courtesy car I was beginning to think I could go back to a manual but when I got my own car back I realized just what I had been missing!!

[Connor]

having just bought a dsg, my first auto, i have found it a joy. 4 2 hour journeys in the first 2 days and i have found myself noticeably fresher on getting to work/home. as for occasionally being caught in the wrong gear, well i have to confess to being caught in the wrong gear myself on occasion in the old manual!

[y Me]

My 1.9 TDi is my 3rd. Auto. The others being a Peugeot 505 and a Suzuki GV 1600 SE. The Octy DSG knocks spots off both of them.

I was a bit concerned at first about getting this type of auto box as the two cars I have ever had with Tiptronic gearboxes (both Corsas, both courtesy cars) had massive flat spots when changing up or down and I couldn't live with that for more than a day or two.

[Fellwalker]

at least 6 autos before this one. The DSG came as a revelation, with almost unnoticeable changes even after 40k miles. Hesitation from standing start. You feel its going to get in the way of that car coming up on you, then all of a sudden they are a distant speck in the rear windscreen.
About once a year i use the "manual" paddle gear change, but its such a waste of effort. The DSG has little hesitation in changing down, and picks up quickly except from that standing start.
Occasionally i drop to sport to come down long steep hills, and very occasionally use the "manual" setting to cut it to 3rd or 2nd on very steep down hills - but only long ones.
I'm considering change, and cannot find another auto that is as smooth. You couldn't pay me enough to swap back to a "proper manual" car.

[gilesk]

Sorry for the lack of knowledge but I have the 2.0 TDI and I want to remap for better fuel economy, what is the nm from standard? and what can I take it to and what are the corresponding BHP figures? I know it is a 140, Thanks

[JohnM]

I have had a number of autos, the last being an auto Merc C180 compressor, but the DSG in my Octy II is by far the best I have driven I find it particularly noticeable on roundabouts and sharp bends. I tend to drive a little hard, and have found, with all previous autos, that I have to use the tipronic to drop a cog or two in order to retain drive through roundabouts or bends. With the DSG I have hardly touched the tiptronic at all - it is always in the correct gear!! It's an amazing gearbox and I will be looking for same on my next car. (Even with quite hard driving I am averaging 43mpg - car has done 22k miles)

John

[Lummox]

Originally Posted by runboy

Sounds like a solution but you would need to leave the box in manual which negates some of the benefits of the auto. You could whip it over into manual when the need arises but you'd need to have a look at what gear you were in to decide which you wanted to be in - not sure if it's worth it over a rough change now and again - it doesn't happen too often.

In fast paced Norfolk the tractor would have taken your nose off by then - gotta be quick with them thar tractoors!

This is why the paddles are a lot better, you dont need to flip into manual mode, touch one of the paddles and it will atuomatically go into manual mode and you can play, leave it for a while and it goes back.

And the reason the DSG is sooo much better than an auto is.......

Its a manual gearbox.

[k.young]

Originally Posted by Octavia5

I've run a dozen different Auto cars from different manufacturers and would say the DSG in my PD140 is the best of them all. It changes gear quicker than a manual and has no 'auto slip'. MPG will depend on how you drive the car as there is no loss of mpg from a DSG box as it has no fluid flywheel.

I would say the 3 mode DSG is the best box on the market, pity Skoda do not offer the Flappy Paddles you can get on the Audi but it is easy enough to use the gear leaver to flick up or don the box in manual mode.

Only downside is if you want to upgrade the power a bit as the torque limit on the DSG box is 350nm according to VAG though several people appear to be running 360nm - with a Dragon Tuning Box - without any problems. Some tuners offer to remap to 380nm but there appears to be no one who has run this for any length of time to report on its reliability.

I have 160,000kms on my remapped 2.0Tdi DSG and to the best of knowledge it has close to 400nm's of torque although I only have the tuners word for this, it has never given an ounce of trouble apart from the DMF which I believe is a common problem and that only went after being abused for 130,000km. I think VAG are only keeping themselves well covered with the torque rating of the DSG box.

[JohnMorr]

Our DSG is generally excellent, but sometimes a bit snatchy when moving away first thing in the morning.

But a few times when stopping or starting from a long gentle cruise there has been a massive "clonk" - the first time we thought we had been run into from behind - the engine stalled.

Our garage (Skoda Canterbury Motorline) say they have never heard about this and there were no error codes reported from the black box.

My guess is that under certain conditions the DSG tries to engage first and second gears simultaneously, so crashing the gearbox. But it happens very occasionally, so I'll live with it. No-one else on Briskoda seems to have this problem.

[runboy]

We have the occasional clunk/lurch as the DSG box gets confused - I find it most when some twit is faffing around in front and I'm having to go from power/off power/back on full power and I've probably caught the box changing.

[rockhopper]

I have covered about 10k in a ford non tiptronic auto box. simply awful. then I covered over 100k in two BMW e39 5 series tourings. lovely gearbox, nice and smooth.

Then I got my 2.0PD L&K DSG estate. This gearbox just raises the ante for autos. yes like any auto it can get confused as mentioned in previous posts.

I recon that the DSG will convert many more people over to auto from manual, now that the facelft vRS will be available with paddles.

I've only done 3,500 miles in just over a month using the DSG, but this is the best gearbox I have ever used. I have supposedly 380Nm of torque & 170bhp.

Biggest problem I have is setting off. Engine won't rev over 1200rpm with sport mode selected, ASR off & left foot on brake. Just won't do a fast getaway.

[woodenspatulas]

im currently driving a tip 2.5v6 tdi superb and from my basic understanding of these boxes, this is considered more a traditional auto box with 4 speeds. Vs the dsg in the octy, they are almost as far apart as two gearboxes can get!

the tip seems to rev almost like the clutch is slipping and for 160bhp it doesnt seem that quick. its a breeze to drive and once on the motorway its great though.

but the dsg beats it in almost everyway. only one aspect gets me, and thats starting from stationary. the dsg has a clunky start, not smooth at all. where as the tipronic has a very smooth take off. ive found both boxes can end up in the wrong gear, but the dsg seems to pick this up quicker. again the tiptronic is so smooth through the gears, but considering the dsg has 2 more gears to go through, its gear changes are almost as good.

if i were to choose between to identical cars, one dsg, and one dsg. i'd pick the dsg everytime!

depending on the car, i'd even have a hard time choosing between manual and dsg!

[fortyfirs]

We have a 140 dsg Elegance and its great, never had any unusual things happening even when pulling our caravan which is 1350 klg.Now i suppose i am a boreing old fart as i have never used the other options on the box so question,by not using these other functions will anything happen such as "sticking" when something is not used?.

[Supacabby]

Reliability over 60k very much in question, at least that's about as long as they last most Brighton based cab drivers I've spoken to. No personal experience so can't say much more, just beware they are expensive to replace when they fail!