Wheel Alignment the big con!

[wheels-inmotion]

Moderators sorry if this is thread is misplaced.

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Various methods are described to encourage you to resolve tyre wear or handling issues, additionally members in forums are keen to advise but often fall victim to the same miss-information, read carefully and stay ahead of 'alignment the big con'

Tracking/Alignment

Is linear, this measurement shows no concern for any other angle. This form of measurement is the most common in the World and the most damaging.

Angles measured 1

Four wheel Alignment

Uses the rear wheels as a scale to centre the steering rack.... then the front toe..... this is better but is assuming the rear is centred.

Angles measured 2

Four wheel Laser Alignment

Same as above.... be wise!

Geometry/Primary

Will image the exact rear centre line to permit a centred steering wheel.. additionally the front and rear camber positions will be measured. This is the most common form of Geometry and i consider this as 'basic'

Angles measured 8

Full Geometry/primary and Secondary

Is absolute but harder to understand. Few places even with the equipment measure the Secondary angles, these include...

Castor

KPI/SJI/SAI

Scrub radius

included angle

TOOT/Ackerman

Delta curve

and so on

Most areas that involve rapid tyre wear or handling issues need to be read from the 'Secondary' data, even more important if the car has been modified or for diagnostics after an accident.

Angles measured 15+

Not easy reading indeed, millions of pounds change hands every day for 'Alignment', a need to be wise could save you £ssss

One more thing to make the 'blood boil'.. The Primary and secondary Geometry has a customer destination?

1: Primary is the 'dumb' customer version

2: Secondary is with held unless requested and named the 'Technicians version.

[Yeti_Man]

As geometry issues are fairly common for the Octavia II; maybe mods would consider making this a sticky - Tony is prepared to offer us some excellent support and advice on the topic.

[VRStu]

Good info - Thanks.

I'll move it to a better location.

[mluton]

Great Info.

Tried to find a local place to do geometry, and twice Ive been to garages that just have wheel aligment and says its a geometry setup. Grrrrrrr!

[Tom_vRS]

Cheers Tony.

Would be good to see you come on board with the site as a more formal advisor/supporter. I think you will open a lot of eyes and can offer a great service to forum members.

[KenONeill]

As geometry issues are fairly common for the Octavia II; maybe mods would consider making this a sticky - Tony is prepared to offer us some excellent support and advice on the topic.

Seconded on the proposal for a sticky!

[bengie]

wotcha, i'll be coming to see you in a bit.

[Royston]

Is this a post from WIM in Berks? I intend to visit them very soon. can you do Jeeps as well? Lol.

[Joff]

Great post - any more info on your business where we can get this done? Assuming you're a business of course and that the Briskoda powers that be are happy for you to give out your details

[wheels-inmotion]

The thread is from wim-forum, everyone if free to read/ use or transport the papers.

I used to list "trusted centres" around the Uk but i had to drop them, reason being if they did something wrong the owner would complain to me.

What i would suggest is to put your postcode into this site> www.AlignMyCar.co.uk since the machines listed are for the serious centres.

Without charge

I can call the centre for members just to check them out

I can write settings for the modified car

I can validate the final positions

If there are issues i will contact the centre in question for you.

[Tech1e]

So how would you rate the VAG beissbarth systems?

[dstev2000]

It's nice to get some decent info on the alignment/geometry side of things.

Most people think it can all be done in 20 minutes at your local Kwik Fit.

Time to raid the piggy bank methinks

[devonmikeyboy]

So how would you rate the VAG beissbarth systems?

When i took my car to Power station that uses a VAG beissbarth it took them over an hour to do with a big A4 print off . One of the measurements was castor plus it checked the steering column alignment etc so it measures at least 8 things if not more.

[fordfan]

Good information, thread now stuck.

[wheels-inmotion]

So how would you rate the VAG beissbarth systems?

Very good.... but?

They are idiot proof, basically walking the technician through the task of wheel Geometry, that's fine until the technician needs to look outside of the box.

I'm not knocking any dealership but in my opinion their skills are to distilled meaning they are good at many things, expert in very few things.

Chassis dynamics and chassis calibration is a huge complicated arena that if understood should be used to "tune" the chassis to suit that particular car and that particular owners request/ complaint.

The raw data offered by the manufacturer is a "suggestion" not law?

Example

We both have the same car but.....

I mainly drive around town, you mainly drive on the motorway.

I don't carry any passengers, you do

I let my fuel go to reserve before filling up, you always have a full tank

I have my tyre pressures done on a service, you do yours weekly

I'm a spirited driver, your not

And so on......

It's probable we would have similar Geometry measurements but we would have very different patterns of tyre wear. So the technician should analise the complaint and adjust the "suggested" raw data accordingly.

Modify the car.... wider wheels, lower the suspension, upgrade the bushings, what settings do they use now?

A good understanding of chassis calibration would position the technician to understand every cars Geometry is unique, all cars positions need to be evolved modified or not.

[Delcac]

Can all these adjustments be made to the vRS mk1 or is it just not worth doing.

[WW_VRS]

Well mine will need checking once it's all built up I guess due to the amount of work (total replacement :P ) that is going on, so once it's running will see what can be done Interesting thread so far though

[wheels-inmotion]

Can all these adjustments be made to the vRS mk1 or is it just not worth doing.

No but a full image explores a wider picture.

Reads like fancy words so where's the point?... The point is does your VRS have an issue, if yes how wide would you expect the problem to be imaged? could you afford a probable (might be right image) or a conclusive image.

Nationally the average fee for front wheel alignment is £30-£40, four wheel alignment about £40-£60 and full Geometry around £80-£600?

Another point to note

Front wheel alignment= no printout

Front wheel laser alignment= no printout

Four wheel alignment= no printout

Four wheel laser alignment= no printout

How come we are so trusting that we can assume the when the car is returned with the keys and a bill, all is well?

Where is the evidence!!.... How do you know it's been done correctly, if at all?

[Tom_vRS]

Des its got to be worth a punt mate. Get an idea of what the car is running now and get the basic tweaking done, then they will be able to advise of any further enhancements you can make. Adjustments can be made to the back with shims, adjustable top mounts and all sorts...

[KenONeill]

Des its got to be worth a punt mate. Get an idea of what the car is running now and get the basic tweaking done, then they will be able to advise of any further enhancements you can make. Adjustments can be made to the back with shims, adjustable top mounts and all sorts...

You'd be talking shims to change camber or toe angles on the rear torsion beam, and castor is irrelevant. So are adjustable rear top mounts, because the trail arms are fixed by the pivots.

[Delcac]

You'd be talking shims to change camber or toe angles on the rear torsion beam, and castor is irrelevant. So are adjustable rear top mounts, because the trail arms are fixed by the pivots.

That's why I am asking the question. Is it even possible to correct a problem with the mk1.

[Delcac]

No but a full image explores a wider picture.

Reads like fancy words so where's the point?... The point is does your VRS have an issue, if yes how wide would you expect the problem to be imaged? could you afford a probable (might be right image) or a conclusive image.

Nationally the average fee for front wheel alignment is £30-£40, four wheel alignment about £40-£60 and full Geometry around £80-£600?

Another point to note

Front wheel alignment= no printout

Front wheel laser alignment= no printout

Four wheel alignment= no printout

Four wheel laser alignment= no printout

How come we are so trusting that we can assume the when the car is returned with the keys and a bill, all is well?

Where is the evidence!!.... How do you know it's been done correctly, if at all?

Sorry but that has just gone straight over my head.

I don't know if my car has an issue.

Are you saying that no it's not worth it but I will get a print out of any problem. It's just that I will not be able to do anything about it.

I'm not doubting your abilities at all here, just want to know if my car can be improved.

Confussed of Chaythum.

[Tom_vRS]

Des :wave:

Des its got to be worth a punt mate. Get an idea of what the car is running now and get the basic tweaking/alignment done, then they will also be able to advise of any further enhancements you can make. Adjustments can be made to the back with shims, adjustable top mounts and all sorts...

They can of course adjust the stock settings to your driving style But I certainly think they will be able to transform your car.

[Delcac]

Des :wave:

They can of course adjust the stock settings to your driving style But I certainly think they will be able to transform your car.

[KenONeill]

That's why I am asking the question. Is it even possible to correct a problem with the mk1.

Yes, at least in principle, but you'd need to know not only that you had a problem with the angles, but what it was and why you had it before anyone should give you advice on how to correct it.

The stub axles are removable, so they could be shimmed to vary toe and/or camber angles. Before I'd advocate doing that, I'd want to know that the frame mounts were straight, and the beam and trailing arms weren't bent.

Because it's a trailing arm system, caster angle doesn't really apply to the rear end; it's more of a wishbone or strut (or even kingpin on a steering beam) concept.