Haldex - Longevity and 'tuning'

[OldToot]

Evening all.

I'm researching my next car and finding some great info here - thanks.

The Octavia 4x4 estate 2.0 diesel seems to fit all my criteria - except I have no idea how reliable the 4x4 system is - how long to these tend to last? I like to keep my cars for a while - my last family sized car was an Alfa 156 which I had for 110,000 miles. Would the haldex system last that long? What do I need to look out for?

Also I understand that the pre-facelift cars have version 2 of the haldex system fitted, whereas the later ones have version 4, which seems much better on paper - although I have seen you can get replacement controllers for the version 2 which transfer power to the rear based on how hard you accelerate as well as if it detects slippage.

Has anyone experience of either or both versions - or an upgrade and can offer any insight?

Thanks in advance.

Edited 10 November, 2009 by OldToot
correct poor pre-post edit!

[vRSy]

id probably advise finding an R32 or S3 forum and asking about haldex on there

Edited 12 November, 2009 by DGW
No need to quote previous post.

[cjb]

Yeah. Pop over to www.audi-sport.net and ask some S3 owners, as that's had the 4WD for a long time now.

[riph72]

I believe the Haldex is fine mechanically, I had some contact with a Haldex engineer when I was researching my car, the biggest mechanical problem they have is dealing with the torque spikes that occur. After a simulated lifetime of use, the wear on the clutch plates was negligible, it doesn't work like a "normal" clutch where there can be a big difference in speed between plates (hence causing wear).

I think the electronics in the first generation were known to fail from time to time, I am fairly sure someone on this very forum (a mechanic) said the 2nd generation were much better. This is from memory though!

I've been hanging around on this forum for about 18 months or so now and don't recall ever seeing a thread about a failed Haldex, although bear in mind most Octavias don't have Haldex, so read into that what you will...

I wouldn't get too hung up on the gen2/gen4 thing, gen2 will be fine for most purposes IMHO. If your 4x4 needs are that extreme then buy a Land Rover or a Jimny :P

Edited 12 November, 2009 by DGW
No need for quote.

[Philip]

I have had both Mk1 Octavia 4x4 and Mk2 Scout. From last winter on ice (Mk2) I was disappointed at how long it took the car to bring drive to the rear and the edl to keep wheelspin in check! Now this is just an observation and I am on the Dunlop tyres in the Scout but had BF Goodrich G-Force tyres on the Mk1 which were much better in wet or wintery conditions.

The great thing with haldex is you are mostly driving in fwd and therefore fuel consumption is not hit as much as a torsen diff quattro say. I had a Audi 100 quattro before the octavia and with the locking rear diff it was MUCH better in snow and ice.

The 2.0 diesel doesn't have the power to engage 4x4 in most conditions, I now drive for economy mostly and enjoy keeping the average 50 + mpg in the Scout.

The 1.8T in the Mk1 could get off from a standstill in the wet as good as most, you would feel the 1/4 turn of the front wheels before the back kicked in and you were off.........

I remember getting the Mk1 stuck on a sandy beach, each time I tried to pull away the front wheels started to turn, digged in and I stalled. The solution was loads of revs and keep the power on until that first 1/4 turn brought the power to the back as well and I drove out 4 wheels scrabbling for grip!

For day to day use the Octavia is a great car, the 4x4 gives you that bit extra in wet, muddy or snow conditions. To get the most from the 4x4 ability I would choose a tyre other than the dunlops that are original equipment. By the way the BF Goodrich G-Force may be great for grip but my mpg fell from 34 average to 30! in the Mk1 4x4.

[riph72]

You're in a better position to judge the two cars you've owned than me, but as you say yourself, you're not comparing like-for-like with completely different sets of tyres on each car! Not that this would affect engage-time though.

I doubt the Haldex system being in 2WD most of the time (although remember that even toe-in results in small amounts of slip) results in that much of a fuel saving. The majority of extra fuel burned (over a 2WD Octy) is probably to drag all that extra metal around, rather than frictional losses when 4WD is engaged. Remember that the front->rear driveshaft is permanently engaged, even in 2WD mode. The Haldex clutch is located at the rear of the car.

I'm bemused by what you say about the 2.0 diesel not having the power to engage 4x4 in most conditions? Not in my experience. It's got 140bhp and 320Nm output, that's plenty to turn 4 connected wheels as far as I'm concerned!

The fact your mk1 was a petrol might explain your revving experience/advice on the beach? I'd be surprised if the 2.0 TDi would have such an issue, with all the torque available.

When all's said and done though, the Octy (4x4 estate or Scout) is a great vehicle IMO, but it's a car with 4WD, not a tractor! I've changed over to Nokian WR, which are all-season tyres, rated with the M+S symbol.

Edited 12 November, 2009 by DGW
No need to quote previous post.

[OldToot]

Thanks for your replies.

I don't really need 4wd I guess, but we are going to get a caravan, and having struggled to get the (FWD) Alfa off a few muddy sites with just a tent in the boot, I thought 4wd might be useful. Plus I always wanted a quattro when I was a kid, but the boot is tiny :-)

Philip - the point you make about shifting power front to rear is part of what I was getting at with the difference between version 2 and 4 (version 3 was only fitted to Saab's, apparently) - the latter is supposed to be much better at shifting power to the back, but I can't find a definitive answer as to which version is in the facelifted Octavias. This is the replacement controller for version 2 which adjusts drive not just on the basis of detecting slip, but also on how hard you accelerate, which I [i[think[/i] makes version 2 much more like version 4.

I guess another factor in the increased fuel consumption, aside from the weight and friction, is that the 4x4 has raised suspension, and the Scount even more raised suspension? I suppose there is no reason you couldn't fit the standard suspension to a 4x4 though - as I said I don't want to go off road, I just want it for towing - plus it's quite hilly where I live, and having had to turn around last winter because I couldn't get up a hill, it'd be nice to have in the winter.

[riph72]

Tyre choice is argueably as/more important as/than 4WD, depending on who you're talking to.

You won't have a problem with boot space with an Octy estate

If you're just concerned about getting a caravan off a muddy field, you really don't need to worry about the gen2/gen4 differences

Scout has more raised suspension that the (already raised) 4x4, yes. Why would you even consider retro-fitting standard suspension to the 4x4/Scout?! The difference in aerodynamic profile probably accounts for 1 or 2 mpg at most (a guess, admittedly), less so when you are not on a motorway.

Edited 12 November, 2009 by DGW
No need to quote previous post.

[riph72]

the latter is supposed to be much better at shifting power to the back, but I can't find a definitive answer as to which version is in the facelifted Octavias. This is the replacement controller for version 2 which adjusts drive not just on the basis of detecting slip, but also on how hard you accelerate

Also, better at shifting power only in terms of response time if you floor it. That's the big difference. How often are you planning on doing that, getting your caravan out of those muddy fields?!?! I'd have thought that in such circumstances you'd be crawling as slow as possible to avoid losing traction...

You really are worrying about nothing here

[sparky2]

The Scout (FL) sticks to the road brill and pulls my caravan with no probs, I am sure that its fitted with v4 of the Haldex, not had a proper chance to really test it off road with the van on yet ( now put the van away for winter ) but it should perform well, changed to the Scout from an Octavia TDi 2000 when I slipped on long dry grass going slightly uphill :rotz: so apart from the Scout being hesitant in first gear ( going into dealers next week ) I am very pleased with the car - cheers - Stuart

[skomaz]

Just thought I'd post a couple of comments as an owner of a pre-FL 2.0 TDI 4x4.

In the bad weather last year I had no grip or traction problems at all in snow and ice on standard summer tyres (Vredestien Sportrac 3's). In fact I was easily able to keep up with and follow supposedly more capable cars (eg Discoverys) on snow and ice, including pulling away uphill from a standstill on compacted snow and ice. The rear wheels defintiely came into play when needed and, interestingly, when "playing" it was the back end that gave way first rather than the front (probably as a result of the weight distribution). Hence my opinion is that the Haldex 2 is more than adequate for most uses.

In terms of longevity my MX5 is maintained by a guy who, also looks after the NHS fleet and, here in South Yorkshire they use a lot of Pre-FL Octavia 4x4 and Scout's. Various discussions with him have indicated that he sees them as a good, solid car with no real reliability issues, provided they are loked after and, in the case of the Haldex system provided the oil is changed as per the service requirements (4 years and 40,000 miles from memory).

[OldToot]

Also, better at shifting power only in terms of response time if you floor it. That's the big difference. How often are you planning on doing that, getting your caravan out of those muddy fields?!?! I'd have thought that in such circumstances you'd be crawling as slow as possible to avoid losing traction...

You really are worrying about nothing here

You're quite right - with the caravan on the back it'll be steady as she goes, but if one has the capability of 4wd, it's be nice if it were a bit more proactive when driving, er, more expressively, without the caravan :-)

Not applying power to the back until the fronts have already started to slip sounds a bit daft, but if it works ok then that's fine by me :-)

[OldToot]

Just thought I'd post a couple of comments as an owner of a pre-FL 2.0 TDI 4x4.

In the bad weather last year I had no grip or traction problems at all in snow and ice on standard summer tyres (Vredestien Sportrac 3's). In fact I was easily able to keep up with and follow supposedly more capable cars (eg Discoverys) on snow and ice, including pulling away uphill from a standstill on compacted snow and ice. The rear wheels defintiely came into play when needed and, interestingly, when "playing" it was the back end that gave way first rather than the front (probably as a result of the weight distribution). Hence my opinion is that the Haldex 2 is more than adequate for most uses.

In terms of longevity my MX5 is maintained by a guy who, also looks after the NHS fleet and, here in South Yorkshire they use a lot of Pre-FL Octavia 4x4 and Scout's. Various discussions with him have indicated that he sees them as a good, solid car with no real reliability issues, provided they are loked after and, in the case of the Haldex system provided the oil is changed as per the service requirements (4 years and 40,000 miles from memory).

Thanks Skomaz and Stuart - so it seems pre FL have Haldex 2 and Fl have Haldex 4. As you say though Skomaz, 2 is perfectly adequate for my needs. But then there is always that nagging voice that tells you for a bit more you could get the more up-to- date one :-)

Interesting about the NHS fleet guy - I live in Rotherham but work in Sheffield and I suppose you do see a few Scouts about in Sheffield - they all seem to be S-Max's and Volvo's where I live though.

I'm reassured anyway - just need to wait a while for the car I want to pop up on autotrader at a price I want to pay, when I happen to have the cash :-)

In the meantime I'll lurk about picking up more tips from you guys if that's ok?

Cheers

[sparky2]

If you can get the scrappage deal its worth £3500 off the FL Scout and you will find that they hold the price, for me it was a tatty first generation or a brand spanker with 3 yrs warrenty for an extra £1000 and as we had an endowment due we spent it ! cheers - Stuart

[skomaz]

If you can get the scrappage deal its worth £3500 off the FL Scout and you will find that they hold the price, for me it was a tatty first generation or a brand spanker with 3 yrs warrenty for an extra £1000 and as we had an endowment due we spent it ! cheers - Stuart

Fair point - Bickertons have the scrappage on at the moment. Also, I know it sounds stupid but check out ebay - I didn;t buy from ebay but did find mine there - it was a Dealer car with three months on the clock that had been specced up and they were wanting to move on - they get them at cost price I think and Skoda doesn't allow them to sell on until they are supposedly six months old so they use "unusual" channels to do so.

[Constant]

You're quite right - with the caravan on the back it'll be steady as she goes, but if one has the capability of 4wd, it's be nice if it were a bit more proactive when driving, er, more expressively, without the caravan :-)

Not applying power to the back until the fronts have already started to slip sounds a bit daft, but if it works ok then that's fine by me :-)

Did you turned ESP off during these muddy situations? As I understand reading the manual (so correct me if I am wrong) this will result in a 4wd situation.

[DGW]

Stuart_J had a Mk 1 Octavia 1.8T 4X4 Hatch tuned to 350bhp and had no problems with the Haldex coping with the extra 200bhp. Also EddyH's Mk 1 Octavia 1.8T 4X4 Estate was tuned to 400+bhp and again the Haldex - in this case fitted with the uprated controller - coped without problems as far as I know. Enough said?!