The mileage: how much is really TOO much?

[bi1b0]

Short summary: Is a 2.5 yrs old Octavia Scout reasonable second-hand buy at 160,000 km? Or is it rather for scrap unless very cheap?

Hello guys,

I'm wondering just how many kilometres (or miles, if you prefer) could a car like the Octavia Scout endure without -- well, not already falling apart on the road -- but without the required maintenance becoming too much of a burden (e.g. when switching to a new car would be cheaper, especially considering the "downtime" and other loss of time in general.)

The reason to think about this is a second hand Scout at ~160,000 kilometres (~100,000 miles,) which caught my eye recently. I was really more looking for a car in the 80-100k km range, but at the same price tag (12-13k EUR) that means more like a 1.9 TDI-PD "ordinary" 4x4, or probably a 2.0 FSI. To tell the truth, I've not been particularly fond with the 1.9 as it seems a bit low-powered for such car (and well known for its turbo spike), and with the FSI for being, well, a petrol -- thirsty, if not anything else. However, I've also found a lot of stories on failing 2.0 TDI-PDs, and it seems that unlike the old but venerable 1.9, this engine is not quite up to the VW's tradition of producing reliable diesels. It gets more complicated, because the Scout gets the newer VW's BMM Pumpe-Düse engine, which despite being a 140 PS again, has only 8 valves per cylinder. Some sources suggest that the change was purely done for economical reasons, but I wonder if VW hasn't also fixed some problems...

Anyway, 8 or 16 valves, the main question still is just how much life is there left in a 160,000 km engine. Of course, I realize this is foremost a matter of maintenance. A well maintained engine at 160,000 could (and would) be in much better condition than a poorly maintained one at 60,000. But even with the best maintenance, obviously there's always some wear and tear, and so you can't expect an engine (and the other components) to run forever. I tend to believe that this particular Scout has been well cared for (I've yet to see the logbook). Actually, the high mileage also hints to that, as obviously the previous owner has hugely relied on the car. Perhaps even more important is the fact that, being ~2.5 years old, that Scout must've passed around 200-250 km every day. This could hardly be city driving (it's not a taxi, and it would've been funny to see a Scout as a taxi, anyway), even less likely off-road (not that the Scout is that much of an off-roader, too), so it must be motorway -- which, in my humble experience, is the least taxing on all car's components: the powertrain working at optimal temperatures and overall conditions (the 6-th gear of the 4x4s must be a blessing here, I guess,) and the suspension only handling an occasional bump. So, 160,000 km shouldn't be too much...

Or should they? I must admit that I don't have that much experience in high-mileage cars (I do have in old cars, however, and that's why I wouldn't generally bother with a 5+ years second-hand). In fact, I don't know if anyone does have such experience with the Scout at all, as it's a rather new model. This also pertains to the BMM engine specifics, as it has been in production for just 2-3 years now. Considering the body and suspension (albeit the Scout does, again, have a bit different one), from all I know the Octavia II has pretty good reputation, and that is likely also true for the Haldex in the 4x4 (at least for the 2nd gen ones.) That's why the engine, especially having heard those dreadful stories about the 2.0 TDI-PDs, bothers me most. It's hard to tell how much I would drive the car myself in both terms of mileage and time. But generally, 15,000 - 25,000 km/year seems reasonable and as I tend to get in love with the cars, I'd probably drive it until it gets too old and hard to maintain.

Perhaps I should also note that the car is in another country, so it will more or less be buying a pig in a poke. I would see and test the car before all is finalized (if I get to that point, of course), but all information that could get in advance, especially considering my modest experience, will obviously be of benefit. So, even if it would be just general thoughts, considerations and advice, I'll really appreciate to hear them. Thanks very much in advance! :beer:

Cheers,

Luchesar

Edited 28 December, 2009 by bi1b0

[fabia55]

i personally wouldn't go for so high mileage for fear of having to replace more worn parts in the future.

[chrisw880]

As long as the car has been serviced (every 12 months) and the cambelt replaced, there shouldn't really be a problem

[fabia55]

As long as the car has been serviced (every 12 months) and the cambelt replaced, there shouldn't really be a problem

i disagree because although it may have been fully serviced, things will in general be more worn out and with a second hand car you never can be 100% sure how the previous owner drove it

[luke_a]

€12-13k for a car with over 100,000 on the clock? Sod that. I got mine when it was 3 years old (117,000 miles) for £4k.

It was due an expensive cambelt service, but I'm confident it will last for years to come. Lots of taxi/police/etc drivers can't be wrong.

Edited 28 December, 2009 by luke_a

[dsr]

I'd agree with Luke_A above. It's a lot of money for a well used car and the engine isn't the only thing to worry about, everything else will have had more wear.

I wouldn't have a problem if it was significantly cheaper..

Walk away from it and look elsewhere.

D

[Dr Zoidberg]

i disagree because although it may have been fully serviced, things will in general be more worn out and with a second hand car you never can be 100% sure how the previous owner drove it

Agreed.

At that sort of mileage you run the risk of suspension and drive components needing replacement which can mean some very expensive bills , and while it won't feel worn out it probably will be noticably less tight than a newer car - more creaks and rattles , and wear and tear on the interior.

[mannyo]

Well, my 4 year old 55 plate octy is just short of 100K miles now and still drives like new, shows no sign of wear on the interior and the paintwork is still remarkably good. The engine uses virtually no oil between services and still starts first time, everytime and has not let me down at all. I have owned plenty of cars with well in excess of this mileage and have never had a problem with high miles. My last mondeo had getting on for 160K miles (256K Kms) and it too drove and look like new.

The only parts replaced on the Octy are 2 rear shock absorbers and a fuel temperature sensor and 3 sets of tyres, all the rest including the brake discs and pads are still the original from the factory.

[Greenie58]

Just a few points to think about, Oil changes are the root of all diesel problems are rather lack of them, it will have been serviced well if still running well at 160 k miles, a mate has an audi A4 200,000 mls still fine but changes the oil & filter every six months regardless. The asking price as others have said is the issue here. The Scout apart from the haldex is not that much different from the other 2.0 PD TDI`s

I`d like to know where all the horror stories are regards the engine failures?

[Hauptmann]

I've run a number of high mileage cars over the years. In general. if well serviced, the core components such as engine and gearbox will last the distance. The problems come with the ancilliary components such as alternator, starter motor, steering pump and even things like the heater flap motors. Its these little bits and pieces that also tend to show the wear and can be expensive to replace.

A lot also depends upon how the miles have been accumulated. The OP is in Bulgaria, where there are few motorways and driving conditions can be a bit rough by western European standards. A 100k mile car there might be a different proposition to say a 100k mile car in Germany, which would probably have spent most of its life cruising on motorways and smooth major highways.

[bi1b0]

Thanks very much for the replies so far. :beer:

@Hauptmann: The car in question is, in fact, in Germany, so yes -- it must've been driven on the German autobahns, where I'd mostly be concerned whether it hasn't been driven too fast. Hmm, indeed, I haven't though about the alternator, but the starter and steering pump wear, for instance, should be much more related to the age, not the mileage, no? And for 2.5 years they should still be running pretty fine -- but it might be just wishful thinking.

@Greenie58: I'll see to find those links. If I remember correctly, it was the typical modern diesel problem -- the turbo. But the really bad thing was that when the turbo breaks under heavy load, it could easily ruin the whole engine beyond repair (or at least requiring an extremely expensive one). People were complaining of increasing noise in the turbo, which had been a clear sign of its impending doom. It was not necessarily a widespread problem, but definitely more often occurring to the 2.0 TDI-PDs than to the 1.9s.

@All: Yes, the price is, indeed, a bit high. But a Scout at 80-100k km is already approaching €20,000, which is way too high for me. In fact, for that price I'd rather buy a new Yeti. Truth is, actually, that with the holiday promotions at the moment I could buy for those €13,000 a new Honda Jazz which has been my third favorite. Or a Fabia (after all, I do love Škoda,) had I not strongly disliked the Mk2 design. :( But, ah, that 4x4 bug... And, as Hauptmann said, the roads in Bulgaria are rough, and more often than not pretty much, too. So, a car with larger ground clearance is quite handy, as I friend of mine with a Fabia Mk1 (which he bought, BTW, on my advice) seems to find often. The 16 mm more which the Scout boasts compared to the "ordinary" 4x4 might not seem much, but with the total of 40 mm over the standard Octavia it might easily be the difference between "just a scratch" and expensive repair.

[bi1b0]

I just did the following calculation. If that car had indeed been driven mostly on the motorway, the 200-250 kms each day correspond to ~2 hrs of driving (based on 120 km/s average speed). Two hours on the motorway every day for two and a half years seems not too excessive. That's also about 1200-1300 hours in total. Had the car been driven that many hours in the city, instead, with an average speed of 35 km/h, it would have just 45,000 kms on the clock now. Or, to put it another way, 160,000 kms of city driving would have corresponded to 4500 hours of service. I am exaggerating a bit, but the real picture shouldn't be too much different.

All right, perhaps that's how I really wish it were. But, I've heard many times that the high mileage is not that much of a problem per se. It's more about those miles corresponding to time, as all materials age, especially plastics and rubber, the steel itself rusts, etc., and the possible lack of adequate maintenance which, obviously, does more and more harm with the miles accumulating. Those people claim that the taxis are good example: they easily reach 300-400-500k, sometimes even with just one major overhaul and only minor other worries. Yet, I don't really have any first hand experience. I certainly know, however, that the less a car is driven, the more it is prone to problems (because of bad lubrication, rust, etc.)

Edited 28 December, 2009 by bi1b0

[skippy41]

there are 4 MK1s, here in my town used as taxis, and they are all approaching 500,000 miles, they are serviced every 10 weeks

2 superbs one on 535,000 and the other on a mear 290,000

[Greenie58]

They can do the miles if serviced, but there will an adjustment for the cars mileage to how much they are worth. Remember the worse thing you can do is NOT use an engine.

Edited 28 December, 2009 by Greenie58

[Constant]

how much life is there left in a 160,000 km engine

Diesel engines can easily last for 350.000 km. But starting from about 180.000 km, (statistically) all kinds of surrounding moving parts will have to be replaced. So during the next years you will have a huge garage bill once in a while, but all together you will drive in a lovely car for a nice price. I am jealous!

My previous car, VW Golf III 1.9 TDi, lasted 260.000 km and died from a broken belt (should not have occured, but bad luck can always happen), not from engine failure itself.

So, 160,000 km shouldn't be too much...

Please make sure to check the mileage on typical sale rep cars (and service intervals), German salesreps can travel a lot in their cars (up to 100.000 km a year) and some rogue car sellers manipulate the mileage (eg 260.000 to 160.000).

[luke_a]

there are 4 MK1s, here in my town used as taxis, and they are all approaching 500,000 miles, they are serviced every 10 weeks

2 superbs one on 535,000 and the other on a mear 290,000

every 10 weeks? bloody hell, mine is being done every 2 years (which is when the car tells me it needs doing!)

[vrsadz]

id say over 160000km is a no go tbh

[numptie-boy]

100,000 miles is nothing for a modern car, especially a diesel. The Octavia's i have owned and used as taxi's were actually running smoother, quicker and better as the mileage builds up, so dont let the mileage put you off, try to negotiate on the price.

My current 2.0 pdi sport is just over 40,000 miles now and running a hell of a lot smoother than it did when i bought it a year ago with 23,000 on it. Engine sounds totally different.

I agree that some components will need replacement at high mileages, but thats the joys of motoring. Bet the car runs great.

[skippy41]

every 10 weeks? bloody hell, mine is being done every 2 years (which is when the car tells me it needs doing!)

Yes every 10 weeks thats 10,000 miles

[Agerbundsen]

Thanks very much for the replies so far. :beer:

@Hauptmann: The car in question is, in fact, in Germany, so yes -- it must've been driven on the German autobahns, where I'd mostly be concerned whether it hasn't been driven too fast. Hmm, indeed, I haven't though about the alternator, but the starter and steering pump wear, for instance, should be much more related to the age, not the mileage, no? And for 2.5 years they should still be running pretty fine -- but it might be just wishful thinking.

@Greenie58: I'll see to find those links. If I remember correctly, it was the typical modern diesel problem -- the turbo. But the really bad thing was that when the turbo breaks under heavy load, it could easily ruin the whole engine beyond repair (or at least requiring an extremely expensive one). People were complaining of increasing noise in the turbo, which had been a clear sign of its impending doom. It was not necessarily a widespread problem, but definitely more often occurring to the 2.0 TDI-PDs than to the 1.9s.

@All: Yes, the price is, indeed, a bit high. But a Scout at 80-100k km is already approaching €20,000, which is way too high for me. In fact, for that price I'd rather buy a new Yeti. Truth is, actually, that with the holiday promotions at the moment I could buy for those €13,000 a new Honda Jazz which has been my third favorite. Or a Fabia (after all, I do love Škoda,) had I not strongly disliked the Mk2 design. :( But, ah, that 4x4 bug... And, as Hauptmann said, the roads in Bulgaria are rough, and more often than not pretty much, too. So, a car with larger ground clearance is quite handy, as I friend of mine with a Fabia Mk1 (which he bought, BTW, on my advice) seems to find often. The 16 mm more which the Scout boasts compared to the "ordinary" 4x4 might not seem much, but with the total of 40 mm over the standard Octavia it might easily be the difference between "just a scratch" and expensive repair.

I have no comment on the pricing, as here in Denmark, car prices are totally skewed due to taxation.

I have just traded a 4 year old Octy Combi 2.0 PD 140 hp in for a new Yeti 2.0 TDI 170 HP 4X4.

The Octy never set a foot wrong in 120,000 km. No problems at all and drove better when sold than when new. I would hve no concern over driving it for another 120,000 km. The PD engine performed very strongly, but the timing belt was replaced as scheduled for 120,000. The factry rust protection is excelent - not a single spot under the car and no additional protection necessary. It probably would not match it, but my prec´vious car was a Mercedes 250 TD with 600,000 km on the clock. The engine was never opened and it had no mechanical problem, but died from rust.

After only 3 weeks of experience with the Yeti, I can say that it is a very well balanced vehicle. very quiet, super handling both on the road at speed and in poor weather conditions like snow and ice. the Haldex and other traction systems work flawlessly. The suspension is very poised on rough stuff - like potholes and speed bumps and very responsive in cornering on winding roads. Meeting oncoming traffic on narrow roads is actually quite fun, as you just stick the nearside tyres out in the grass and carry on as if it was tarmac.

I am happy wit my engine choice, as I do drive some ion Germany at speed, but the 140 hp TDI CR will do just as well in daily driving conditions.

It should come down to whatever you want - and the price. If the car was well maintained, mainly oil changes and the correct oil, the 160,000 km should not stop you.

[bi1b0]

Please make sure to check the mileage on typical sale rep cars (and service intervals), German salesreps can travel a lot in their cars (up to 100.000 km a year) and some rogue car sellers manipulate the mileage (eg 260.000 to 160.000).

Yes, indeed. Actually, one of the things that caught my eye in this particular Scout was the seller -- a long established family business run entirely by native Germans. Now, that's not, of course, supposed to offend anyone. But I also know the habits of my region much too well... Which, after all, is the reason I'm looking for a second-hand car in Germany.

I agree that some components will need replacement at high mileages, but thats the joys of motoring. Bet the car runs great.

Oh, yes. I've really enjoyed tinkering with the old family 120L (that's the "Estelle" in UK) for the last 22 years almost as much as driving it. In fact, I do prefer to service the car as much as possible myself, and I can only regret that with each new generation, the cars become less and less DIY-serviceable.

Yes every 10 weeks thats 10,000 miles

Hmm, something like that is how I hope that Scout has been serviced... Again, I've yet to see the logbook.

I have just traded a 4 year old Octy Combi 2.0 PD 140 hp in for a new Yeti 2.0 TDI 170 HP 4X4.

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience with the Yeti -- it's very interesting, indeed. It was yesterday exactly that I had the opportunity to explore the Yeti "first-handed". It did seem a very nice vehicle, though I was also a bit surprised by the relatively small boot space. Then again, I might had been looking too much at the Octy's immense boot beforehand, which could easily had distorted my perception.

Anyway, I won't really be surprised if I follow your path in a few years from now with a Yeti. Meanwhile, I wish you lots of enjoyment with yours!

[luke_a]

Yes every 10 weeks thats 10,000 miles

Ah, is that the fixed service interval thingy? Mine is on the variable plan.

Mine hasnt been serviced for just over a year now, but I have only done 10,000 miles in that time and the onboard computer hasn't grumbled at me to do it, so I am assuming it doesn't need to be done yet? Should I service it anyway?

[mannyo]

Please make sure to check the mileage on typical sale rep cars (and service intervals), German salesreps can travel a lot in their cars (up to 100.000 km a year) and some rogue car sellers manipulate the mileage (eg 260.000 to 160.000).

Indeed the dashpod can be programmed to read any mileage you want with the correct software and a laptop, however the correct mileage is still recorded in the cars main ecu (assuming its the original) as at least one person discovered when their newly purchased Fabia had done considerably more mileage than displayed by the dashboard.

[durhamfisher]

Ah, is that the fixed service interval thingy? Mine is on the variable plan.

Mine hasnt been serviced for just over a year now, but I have only done 10,000 miles in that time and the onboard computer hasn't grumbled at me to do it, so I am assuming it doesn't need to be done yet? Should I service it anyway?

Yes, you should change the oil, you should really be on fixed servicing if you only do 10k a year.

[bi1b0]

Yes, you should change the oil, you should really be on fixed servicing if you only do 10k a year.

Indeed, the oil deteriorates even by just being exposed to atmospheric air, where it oxygenates slowly, loosing its lubrication properties.