Honest Johns take on ESP problems

[Minimoke]

I see in todays Daily Telegraph that Honest John is recommending you don't buy an Octavia (and some other cars) unless its priced £1,500 below book value or has had the ESP module replaced by a franchised dealer.

My understanding is that there is a common (and pricey) problem with VAG ABS. Is that what he is referring to or have I got it wrong?

[Minimoke]

I think I've answered my own question as the ESP module is part of the ABS pump (?)

Does that mean that the poor relations (like me) who only have ASR would not be affected by this particular fault?

[gavindjharper]

So ASP cars are OK??? Pheeeeewwwww.......

I was getting hung up over whether to try and save up more to get a later ESP L&K rather than an older ASP L&K after the recent bad weather e.t.c. however, now I think I won't bother! (That is if I ever sell my Ambiente! )

[simonsheil]

link

My link

I don't think I have seen this before on the forum.

[Stuzo]

I think I've answered my own question as the ESP module is part of the ABS pump (?)

Does that mean that the poor relations (like me) who only have ASR would not be affected by this particular fault?

I read article and thought something was a bit odd about it all. For those that didn't read it he said:

"Teves Mk60 ABS/ESP module failure affects everybody in the independent used car trade. Typically, the sharks in the business buy the faulty cars at £1,500 below book price, disconnect the light and sell the car as though it is fine. Unfortunately, the only advice I can give is not to buy a VW Golf MkV, MkV Plus or Touran; Seat Altea, Leon or Toledo; Skoda Octavia; Audi A3, BMW 1- or 3-series; Volvo S40/V50; or Mazda3 without either reducing the price by £1,500 or checking with a franchised dealer that the module has been replaced."

I know nothing about this problem but when I read it I wondered if the light being referred to is the same light used for ASR, If it is you could tell if someone had disconnected the light simply by turning ASR on or off using the switch or sticking it in first and trying to spin the front wheels while looking for the dash light. If it isn't the same system that controls ASR and ABS then you could just find some gravel and try stopping quickly. Either would be a more sensible option than just telling all your readers to refuse anything other than a £1,500 discount on a very long list of cars.

I just hope that when I come to sell my Octavia I don't get a torygraph reader trying to knock me down £1,500.

[Avalon]

Stuzo this is about getting VAG (and others) to admit the issue and live up to the promises they made privately some time back, it had to be done over the MK4 gearbox that grenaded, the coil packs, the compressors on the MKI Octy and god knows how many other issues over the years (Toyota anyone ?), it's got nothing to do with the political stance a paper takes and as someone who doesn't read the paper but does read HJ online I actually find such a sweeping generalization misguided and immature. I don't read the Mail nor am I a particular fan of any political party, I find them almost without exception to be utterly useless and simply in it for what they can get.

Now consider for a moment it's the middle of winter, you go out to your car and start the engine, the little light with the car and skid marks stays on, you go to the dealer and pay £65 to have them confirm what you already know and have been unofficially told. It's a 1-1.5k repair bill as you are either just out of warranty or have some independent service history or were slightly late on the schedule at some point (or in my case the dealer who sold the car didn't update the last two services on DIS or register the sale of the car so you are asked to prove ownership!). But wait! VW assured us all that they'd support a 100% contribution on this part if it failed out of warranty and that even cars that were indy serviced would be dealt with sympathetically. The part in question is integrated to your ABS unit and despite the part being cheap when it used to be separated from the PCB it requires a full new ABS unit. Your dealer will give you sweet FA apart from lip service and apologies. You then start to find that the dealership stop returning your calls/letters and VAG UK despite being initially apologetic when you supply them SIX other examples of cars you know have had the same issue refuse to help. You're left with forking out the cash (in my case the week before xmas, 18 month old daughter, domestic holiday booked for Feb as it'll be the first and last time you can do so as a family of three as your other half is due to delivery a son in May, you either take out debt that in the current financial climate will be expensive or hit your savings, the penalty for withdrawal etc being a total loss of bonus rate on investment and re-valuing at SVR saving rate for the duration of the ISA). Suddenly the money you've worked hard to earn and save is now going to end up in the pockets of the very people who sold you the car in the first place knowing it was almost guaranteed to have the issue within the next 12-18 months and because they couldn't be bothered to update the computer system you were never given the option of taking extended warranty. The best bit is still to come, they will probably fit the same unit with the same problem that will suffer the same issue in 3-5 years. The third option (if you can call it that) is to let your other half and daughter drive round with the ABS running on the backup system and no TC.

To give you some of the background on this story HJ had been told and published twice stating he had been assured VAG were offering 100% parts and 50% labor on this issue last year, it turns out they were economical with the truth, if you don't have pristine MDSH including BF change (though it's been proved this is totally useless in preventing the issue) then you get nothing (local dealer has an 04 Golf in with 9k on the clock and VW are offering ZERO contribution as it's got an indy history. If the car's up to 4 years old with full MDSH it gets 100% parts 50% parts, if it's 4-5 it gets 35/35 if it's 5+ it's 0/0 irrespective, previously they'd stated less than full MDSH would be dealt with sympathetically, that consists of nicely asking you for 1k as opposed to demanding it apparently He was good enough to raise this with VW PR who ignored it and ignored it, so I decided to take the dealer to small claims court (my business relationship was with them not VAG unfortunately), i'm guessing he has received so many complaints and plea's for help after VW misrepresented the 'good will' they were offering he's decided to escalate it publicly. Why should you have to pay 1-1.5k and I pay 300 to have the same fault fixed or for that matter someone else get it done for free on similar age cars especially on a non servicable part specifically designed to last the lifetime of the car ?

The TEVES MK60 has issues, the quality of assembly is sub standard according to someone who's had one independently inspected and the failure rate is climbing, VW know this and switched supplier leading to long wait times last year. The actual failure is the G201 sensor which on older floor plan's was a separate unit and considerably cheaper to replace (tens of pounds as opposed to getting close to 1.5k however VW has reduced the fitted price to under 1k now so i'm told). Sorry if you don't like the prospect of your car being devalued but like the coil packs or the condenser units on the MKI it needs dealing with. I was more than grateful for the help and advice HJ was able to provide and i'm glad that this was published, some poor woman had apparently paid the full whack earlier in the week according to the dealer when I asked about good will 'so they didn't think any contribution was likely'. That changed dramatically when they were about to go to Small Claims Court but how many people push it that far or like yourself simply know little/nothing about the issue ?

Incidentally someone even started a FB group dedicated to this issue if you're that way inclined.

If anyone wants any more specific details i'm happy to provide them with anything I can to help, we have two VAG cars that are almost identical (Golf and Octy 2) so you can imagine how much I want to see this resolved for everyone, our Golf suffered last year, if the same is true of the Octy it's due the end of this year/early next (i've not checked the ABS unit type yet)

[MrRee]

This terrifies me about buying an Octavia .... I have been considering it ..... it's a disgrace this treatment of customers by VAG!!

[Tiger22]

I can't seem to locate the new Honest John article. Can someone provide a link?

Are cars still rolling off the production line with this issue or is it only cars of a certain age?

[Raglits]

This terrifies me about buying an Octavia .... I have been considering it ..... it's a disgrace this treatment of customers by VAG!!

It won't be the first manufacturer who's dealt with their customers in a crap way... Ford manufactured cars in the early 70s that with a $11 increase in manufacturing price would have stopped the problem of the fuel tanks being ruptured in a rear end accident, but they decided not too on the basis the compensation for the few claims would be cheaper than changing the production line... until they were taken to court over the memo which showed this and the US government fined them millions

Toyota knew about the dodgy throttles and brakes for a long time before finally admitting the problems - and Toyota probably have a better reputation for reliability than Subaru do...

Note, I am not saying Toyotas are more reliable than Subaru's, but reputations take a long time to change... FIATs always rust is an example, they've been no worse than any other manufacturer for a long time...

Things go wrong with all manufacturers, just sometimes they are better than others in dealing with the issues. I will be keeping an eye on this potential ABS/EBS issue, and will bring it up at my first service. As, I suspect will most VAG group owners, Ford Group owners and BMW owners looking at the models this potentially affects... and who knows which other manufacturers. Oh, and Subaru do get things wrong, they have recalls, just like other manufacturers...

[gavindjharper]

Surely as we are all members of a forum, there is a way that we can harness our collective power to embarrass Skoda into doing something publicly? Does anyone fancy collectively adding names to a letter to the Telegraph thanking HJ for highlighting this problem and calling on VW group to do the right thing. Surely if the part was dodgy in teh first place, people shouldn't be penalised for not having stealer services. Could we have a class-action against VW?

[fikes75]

I have the problem of the esp light on ,my car is four years old 24k miles full mdsh and Skoda uk are paying 50% of parts and labour which will leave me to pay about £400,it took them almost 1 month to decide then i was told i have 14 days to get it done.

Edited 28 February, 2010 by fikes75

[cailean]

Surely as we are all members of a forum, there is a way that we can harness our collective power to embarrass Skoda into doing something publicly? Does anyone fancy collectively adding names to a letter to the Telegraph thanking HJ for highlighting this problem and calling on VW group to do the right thing. Surely if the part was dodgy in teh first place, people shouldn't be penalised for not having stealer services. Could we have a class-action against VW?

With what's going on with Toyota you would have thought that VAG would try their best to avoid negative publicity from this issue

[velocette]

With what's going on with Toyota you would have thought that VAG would try their best to avoid negative publicity from this issue

I read this in the Telegraph yesterday and was somewhat concerned as I have a 54 reg 1.9 tdi Elegance DSG with 72k on the clock. Is there any indication that anybody knows of concerning the criteria about failure of this component? Age, mileage, BF change etc that might help me and others take a view on the likelihood of failure. As it happens I bought this car from a main dealer with a 1 year full warranty which expires next July. I do a high mileage and change cars based largely on the economics, so might well consider chopping it in at some stage or waiting for it to blow and then claiming!

Thanks Velocette

[Stuzo]

Stuzo this is about getting VAG (and others) to admit the issue and live up to the promises they made privately some time back, it had to be done over the MK4 gearbox that grenaded, the coil packs, the compressors on the MKI Octy and god knows how many other issues over the years (Toyota anyone ?), it's got nothing to do with the political stance a paper takes and as someone who doesn't read the paper but does read HJ online I actually find such a sweeping generalization misguided and immature. I don't read the Mail nor am I a particular fan of any political party, I find them almost without exception to be utterly useless and simply in it for what they can get...

I wasn't claiming that the political leaning of a newspaper has any effect on what a motoring advice column recommends, I was just using a common nickname rather than the correct name as I felt it sat well with the informal discussion of an internet forum. If we wan't to get Freudian about it then it was probably my attempt at saying 'yes, I read the Telegraph but I'm a bit soft lefty at heart'.

Anyway, irrelevant political leanings aside, I'd not heard of the problem before. I don't spend that much time on here but this is the first time I've seen it mentioned, it isn't mentioned on the Parkers reliability guide (http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/skoda/octavia-estate-2005.aspx?page=4) and it is only briefly mentioned at the end of Honest Johns list of known problems (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/skoda/octavia-ii-2004/?section=bad). Despite reading Honest Johns column most weeks I'd not come across any previous mention of it, hence why I thought that the claim that all cars should have £1,500 knocked off the asking price was a little rash.

So, I'm sorry to hear about the nightmare you are having and can emphasis; being stuck between a rock and a hard place myself with a similar situation regarding a new clutch that my local VW franchise dealer fitted to my Octavia for £1200 and has been nothing but trouble since. Anyway, with that slightly excessive defence of my character out the way, can anybody answer my original questions:

Is the light that comes on the same light that comes on for ASR or is it a different light?

If it is then turning the ASR switch off would indicate if a dodgy dealer had disconnected the light

If not, taking the car for a test drive and trying to stop sharply on a bit of gravel would surely be a simple way of testing if the ABS was functioning?

I fully understand the need to pressure VAG to admit to a problem and treat customers fairly but the letter in Honest Johns column was entirely around buying a 2nd hand car from a dealer, and I felt that there must be a better solution than asking for a £1,500 discount without proof that the ESP light had not been disconnected from a particular vehicle.

[Stuzo]

I can't seem to locate the new Honest John article. Can someone provide a link?

Are cars still rolling off the production line with this issue or is it only cars of a certain age?

The letter was as follows:

We tested a used VW Touran, which we decided to buy. There were two illuminated warning lights on the dashboard and the dealer said this was due t the battery having been removed, which blew a switch. He insisted it wasn't a problem, but warned us that the electronic stability program (ESP) light would always be on. He told us it could be fixed, but that most people didn't bother because it would cost £500-£600. The dealer suggested what we thought was a fair price and I paid £105 deposit by credit card. The following day I researched the ESP problem and discovered that it was actually quite common (and could cost up to £1,500 to replace). I called the dealer to ask him to fix it. He offered a refund, but we still wanted the car and he agreed to take it for diagnosis. I now have a £995 (plus VAT) quote for the repair, which I don't feel I should pay. I have asked the dealer to get the problem fixed, but he has declined on the grounds that I knew about it when I bought the car, What can I do?

CH, Cherry Burton

HJ: He spun you a lot of rubbish. This is a serious, well-known fault that immediately reduces the car's value by £1,500 because that's what it costs to fix. If he won't return your money, get onto Trading Standards. Teves Mk60 ABS/ESP module failure affects everybody in the independent used car trade. Typically, the sharks in the business buy the faulty cars at £1,500 below book price, disconnect the light and sell the car as though it is fine. Unfortunately, the only advice I can give is not to buy a VW Golf MkV, MkV Plus or Touran; Seat Altea, Leon or Toledo; Skoda Octavia; Audi A3, BMW 1- or 3-series; Volvo S40/V50; or Mazda3 without either reducing the price by £1,500 or checking with a franchised dealer that the module has been replaced.

[morganic]

Does anyone know if this problem affects the new style Octavia or is it all of them?

[Avalon]

I just typed out a long detailed reply then managed to loose it during submission :(

Short version:

If you have ABS you have the problem. VAG won't tell us when they stopped filling the parts bin's with TEVES ABS units and what dates they stopped using them on the lines, they also can't tell you when dealers used up existing stock on the shelves so with that in mind i'd imagine VCDS should be able to give some detail on the unit type etc but i'd need to check. The light in question is shown below:

The ASR switch should be a great way of checking but even then you'll not know if it's the switch, the pedal sensor or the ABS unit that's at fault as all 3 can cause the issue along with a whole load of others. I'll be having a look at the ABS unit in the Golf as I know it's Teves and see if I can find any distinguishing markings that may help when doing a visual check and then compare them to the Octy. As it was a mk5 issue i'd assume the MK1 Octy is safe.

For thousands more cases google MK60 and G201. BBA Reman offer cheap repairs on your own unit if you can be without the car for a few days and post off the unit.

[gavindjharper]

Everyone - take a few moments out of your schedule to write to consumer direct. If you are on other forums, please cross-post this message. If we club together, then we will be heard. If you have been stung and had to pay for the part - write to consumer direct and your local trading standards office.

http://www.consumerd...action=complain

Dear Sir / Madam,

There is a well known problem with Volkwage Audi group vehicles, from Skoda Seat Volkwagen or Audi, that use a certain ABS / ESP pump. These are known to fail on a regular basis prematurely.

VOSA will not intervene as the vehicle can be driven even with this safety fault, and it doesn't make the vehicle immediately unsafe to drive. However, many unscrupuous dealers simply disconnect the warning light which indicates this problem, giving the impression that the car is ABS braked when it is not.

Recently the problem was brought to light by "Honest John" in his motoring column. http://www.honestjoh...dex.htm?t=66972

A search for Teves Mk60 ABS/ESP module failure will reveal a wealth of internet users suffering from this problem.

Many have had cars that have not done many miles, even just out of the warranty period, and this module has failed prematurely, costing them £1500 to replace.

As it is a fault that is common to all vehicles with the pumps fitted this is a big problem for Volkwagen Audi group and we feel that pressure should be applied to them to issue a recall and fit this component for free.

I await your response with eager anticipation,

Gavin Harper

How about writing to Volkswagen marketing and threatening to cause a stink that will make Toyota's dodgy accellerators look like a storm in a teacup?

[gavindjharper]

Write to Watchdog in your masses too as someone suggested on one of the Golf forums:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/gotastory/

[gavindjharper]

This problem hasn't affected me yet - but I am highly concerned as just in the market for a new Octy and selling mine.

Do you think that a thread should be made sticky entitled "ESP Problems", with a summary of the problem, and details of contacting Consumer Direct / Watchdog... if we get it in people's mind, and all spend five minutes to send a quick email, then maybe we can get a resolution to the problem.

For clarification, does it affect ASP cars as well as ESP cars - is it ABS in general or only those vehicles with ESP as an optional extra?

[Raglits]

VOSA will not intervene as the vehicle can be driven even with this safety fault, and it doesn't make the vehicle immediately unsafe to drive. However, many unscrupuous dealers simply disconnect the warning light which indicates this problem, giving the impression that the car is ABS braked when it is not.

Actually, if a car has ABS and it's not working it's illegal and the driver could be prosecuted as well as the car failing it's MOT.... So if the "modification" is disabling the ABS as well as removing the warning light then there's some serious legal consequenses

[fikes75]

The problem only seems to affect the esp and not the abs( abs continues to work normally) so not classed as an mot fail as the abs light does not come on,even though they are part of the same unit.

Edited 28 February, 2010 by fikes75

[cheezemonkhai]

So is this only the MK60 unit or does it affect the MK70 too?

[div]

well via the art of copy cut and paste i have nicked your letter and sent mine to consumer driect too! Sorry for blagging your letter gavin but if its ok with you think everyone should do something along those lines basically if you have an octavia (any others affected like new superb?) then if you want to attempt to save yourself £1500 in the future then you should write for the sake or about 5mins work

[gavindjharper]

well via the art of copy cut and paste i have nicked your letter and sent mine to consumer driect too!

I was hoping someone would

Sorry for blagging your letter gavin

No apology neccessary!

If there is someone out there who knows consumer law better than I - even if you are a bit of an amateur Perry Mason or once worked for the CAB or something; add to my letter, amend it and make a more pressing case, and post the most recent up to date version here.

This is surely what the point of having a forum is all about? We are a community, we support each other and by leveraging our collective bargaining power we can all contribute to making the world a better place for Skoda drivers.

Even if the fault doesn't affect you, do your bit for your fellow Briskodians and make a bit of hoo-hah as I'm sure oyur combined noise will form a deafening roar which VW Audi group will not fail to ignore.

Remember, it's not what your fellow Briskodians can do for you, it's about what you can do for your fellow Briskodians.

I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to resolve any Octavia technical foibles that befall us.

We shall fight them in the citizens advice bureau,

We shall fight them on Watchdog and if they ever bring back World in Action,

We shall fight them with consumer direct and trading standards,

We shall never surrender!

I thank you...

Well, that's my little rallying call... remember "We Need YOU!"