Honest Johns take on ESP problems

[Avalon]

I'm not sure if people skimmed the reply earlier judging by some of the questions so to clear up ...

1. If you have ABS on your car (yes that's everyone as far as i'm aware) then you have an ABS control unit. It's the G201 sensor surface mounted onto the board. The result is the ASR off light but it has nothing to do with ASR or TC options at build it's the MK60 ABS unit that needs replacing. Other common failures that cause this are the pedal switch which is a cheap/easy part to replace.

2. ABS still works, VOSA won't get involved unless it stops and trust me it still works!

3. It's a TEVES MK60 issue only as far as i'm aware.

I got nothing from watchdog when I raised the issue but feel free to try, i'm slightly surprised from other posts that Skoda don't offer the same as VW in terms of the good will matrix I posted details of as all cars under 4 years old should get 100% parts and 50% labour good will offers as far as i'm aware, the main issue is it seems to be an item that fails at 3-5 years old so VW's 'gesture' is still way too short considering it's a unit that is supposed to last the lifetime of the car and I see no reason that should be only 5 years considering what's paid ?

[Hauptmann]

As I have posted in the past - your warranty is IN ADDITION to your statutory rights. Failure of this unit at less than 5-6 years or 100k miles would IMHO give you a case under the 'durability' terms of the Sale Of Goods Act (SOGA). My advice to anyone with this problem is to write a Letter Before Action to the dealer who sold you the car and inform them that unless they agree (in writing) to repair the car then you will take out a Small Claims Court summons under SOGA for insufficient durability of the part. Send the letter by Special Delivery and give them 7 working days to respond. If no satisfactory response then complete the online SCC and pay your court fee (about £70). Print off everything you can find about this problem (including details of the VW offer to pay 100% - an admission of liability) and then be prepared to take it to the SCC. I would think the probability of winning if very high. Don't accept anything less than 100% and please post the outcome here.

[Phil_P]

I'm not sure if people skimmed the reply earlier judging by some of the questions so to clear up ...

<snip>

3. It's a TEVES MK60 issue only as far as i'm aware.

I found some VW documentation suggesting that ABS/ASR only cars (ie, no ESP) are fitted with TEVES MK70 as an ABS only solution. As I don't have ESP on my car, I'm still trying to deduce if I might (potentially) be affected or not, the inference being that if it's a MK60 only issue then cars without ESP are not affected.

Would be nice to get some more definitive information though.

Edited 1 March, 2010 by Phil_P

[Hauptmann]

Yes, its a MK60 problem only. Apparently they were modified sometime in 2008 to rectify the problem, so if yours is a 2009 built car you most likely wouldn't suffer the failure anyway.

[sparky2]

Well I have a FL Octavia 09 Scout and my light is on all the time now ! where is the unit located (any pics) so I can have a look to see if this unit is fitted, will book it into the dealers in a couple of weeks to hopefully get sorted. cheers - Stuart.

[Aspman]

Any symptoms on the box to lookout for? Rust, splitting plastic etc?

Would be handy if it were to break before the car goes out of warranty in July.

[expostmanpat]

Is it limited to the cars mentioned in the earlier post, or does it extend to all VAG cars eg Passatt, Superb and what about Fabia where the ESP option as been specified?

Edited 1 March, 2010 by postmanpat

[Tom_vRS]

Only the A5 platform cars as I understand it.

[Minimoke]

Following on from Phil_p's post has anybody tried contacting Skoda Customer Service to ask if non ESP cars are fitted with Mk70's rather than Mk60's?

If not, then I'll try them tomorrow (Tuesday) sometme.

[Phil_P]

Following on from Phil_p's post has anybody tried contacting Skoda Customer Service to ask if non ESP cars are fitted with Mk70's rather than Mk60's?

If not, then I'll try them tomorrow (Tuesday) sometme.

I found the document, it's a VW Golf 2004 service guide:

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_321.pdf

and here's the paragraph I was referring to (page 27):

Installed as an exclusive ABS system is the MK 70. As this component only features the ABS

function (4 inlet and 4 outlet valves), it is smaller and lighter than the MK 60 system.

Hope that helps.

[GED-VRS]

JUST A QUICK QUESTION ,ive seen which makes and models are affected but can anyone tell me how many cars world wide could be affected ,and how many have actually failed,

also im new to skoda and was wondering when this problem first noticed,having just bought a 2006 vrs on saturday ,im a bit concerned ,

[Hauptmann]

Well I have a FL Octavia 09 Scout and my light is on all the time now ! where is the unit located (any pics) so I can have a look to see if this unit is fitted, will book it into the dealers in a couple of weeks to hopefully get sorted. cheers - Stuart.

I would be very surprised if this is the ESP fault talked about here. Probably some other fault.

[Nick P]

I can confirm that every ASR only (no ESP) Mk2 Octavia that I've scanned with VAG-COM has an Mk 70 controller - NOT an Mk 60. I've just gone over all my saved logs.

Edited 1 March, 2010 by wega3k

[Biffo]

I can confirm that every ASR only (no ESP) Mk2 Octavia that I've scanned with VAG-COM has an Mk 70 controller - NOT an Mk 60. I've just gone over all my saved logs.

Is VAGCOM the only way to identify which type of unit is fitted. I have a 2008 PD vrs which is still under warranty and I would like to know what unit I have. Thanks.

[cheezemonkhai]

I can confirm that every ASR only (no ESP) Mk2 Octavia that I've scanned with VAG-COM has an Mk 70 controller - NOT an Mk 60. I've just gone over all my saved logs.

Mine is ASR and also has an MK70 fitted.

[Hauptmann]

Is VAGCOM the only way to identify which type of unit is fitted. I have a 2008 PD vrs which is still under warranty and I would like to know what unit I have. Thanks.

It will be an Mk60. I believe the units were modified some time during 2008 to reduce the likelihood of failure?

[Minimoke]

As promised earlier I have contacted Skoda Customer Services regarding which Teves ABS is fitted to non ESP cars (this was before I saw your post wega3k) and am waiting for them to get back to me. I'll post their answer when I have it.

I notice that Honest John is really having a go about this. I found this on his website today:

Auction Values of BMW 1 Series Set To Drop

Thu, 25 Feb 2010

BMW has turned down a claim by the owner of a 2005 BMW 120D in which the ABS/DSC module failed, leaving the customer with a bill of £1,613 + fitting. This is around 20% of the value of the car.

The reason for rejecting his claim to goodwill over the cost of this safety-related part is that the customer bought the car used from a car supersite and, though it had been serviced by BMW dealers and an 'Approved' BMW service specialist, BMW felt that the history of the car did not justify any goodwill at all towards the repair.

Failure of Teves Mk 60 ABS/ESP/DSC modules at 3 - 6 years old due to an internal sensor fault is afflicting Audi A3s, VW Golfs, VW Tourans, SEAT Alteas, SEAT Toledos, SEAT Leons, Skoda Octavias, BMW 1 Series, BMW 3 Series, Volvo S30s, Volvo V50s, Mazda 3s and Mazda 5s.

Manufacturer 'goodwill' towards the repair depends on age, mileage and service history. So far, on the basis of the 60 - 70 cases reported to HJUK, goodwill seems to be most forthcoming from Audi and Volvo. VW's offer varies from around 30% to 100%. SEAT, Skoda and Mazda seem to be the least accommodating.

VOSA has refused to issue a Vehicle Safety recall because though in most cases the fault would result in an MoT failure, VOSA claims drivers are not in danger because they are warned of the fault by a light.

However a hardening of manufacturer attitudes to goodwill repairs must inevitably have a knock-on effect on auction prices of ex-fleet cars which, by their nature, may not have full franchised dealer service histories and if they are re-sold by independent dealers might be disqualified anyway.

[redlemon]

maybe a dumb question, but how do i tell if i have ESP?

button on the dash of my 08 TDI105PD says ASR. the handbook only seems to refer to ESP ???

[Phil_P]

maybe a dumb question, but how do i tell if i have ESP?

button on the dash of my 08 TDI105PD says ASR. the handbook only seems to refer to ESP ???

Then I don't think you have ESP. If you had ESP fitted then the button would say ESP, not ASR (I think).

[Hauptmann]

maybe a dumb question, but how do i tell if i have ESP?

button on the dash of my 08 TDI105PD says ASR

You have ASR then!

[Avalon]

Well just checked, the Golf's ESP and it's an MK60, also included the VCDS error log for it for reference.

Component: ESP FRONT MK60 0102

Coding: 0021122

Shop #: WSC 01279

1 Fault Found:

01435 - Brake Pressure Sensor 1 (G201)

012 - Electrical Fault in Circuit

The Octy is ASR not ESP and sure enough it's an MK70, so that would suggest the ASR=MK70 statement is accurate, I only have scan's from both of our cars but it looks like my findings back up Phil_p and Wega3k's posts

Component: ASR FRONT MK70 0105

Coding: 0017025

Shop #: WSC 73430

No fault code found.

[Nick P]

Booked my Mk60 adorned car in for it's two year brake fluid change at a Skoda dealership on Monday. £47 + VAT, but I'm considering it an investment in case the unit fails outside of warranty. That way they can't say I didn't have it done at the right time or didn't have it done at a Skoda dealership. *******. :(

[cheezemonkhai]

Is the fault just a problem with the switch, such as a dry joint or is the switch itself faulty.

[redlemon]

You have ASR then!

sounds like good news then

[Hauptmann]

Is the fault just a problem with the switch, such as a dry joint or is the switch itself faulty.

I believe its a silicon thin-film pressure sensor. This fails due to a design defect. At the moment there is nobody in the UK who can recondition these (although BBA-Reman are working on it). It is clearly a design fault and VAG are wide open to customer taking them to Small Claims Court and getting 100% payout on any car up to about 5-6 years old. This is a non-servicable part so where/when the car was serviced is not material to any claim. The fact that Audi and VW owners are getting 100% of their repair costs met is an admission of liability.