Honest Johns take on ESP problems

[cheezemonkhai]

I don't think an owner should have to fix it, but the question I have is can you get new pressure sensors as if you can then it would be low cost swap to get the car going again.

Personally I think everyone who has a car less than 6 years old with this fault should be taking their supplying dealer (be it a VAG group one, BMW or any with this fitted) to court under their statutory rights and claiming that the good supplied are not up to a reasonable quality.

[mrose]

Everyone - take a few moments out of your schedule to write to consumer direct. If you are on other forums, please cross-post this message. If we club together, then we will be heard. If you have been stung and had to pay for the part - write to consumer direct and your local trading standards office.

http://www.consumerd...action=complain

Dear Sir / Madam,

There is a well known problem with Volkwage Audi group vehicles, from Skoda Seat Volkwagen or Audi, that use a certain ABS / ESP pump. These are known to fail on a regular basis prematurely.

VOSA will not intervene as the vehicle can be driven even with this safety fault, and it doesn't make the vehicle immediately unsafe to drive. However, many unscrupuous dealers simply disconnect the warning light which indicates this problem, giving the impression that the car is ABS braked when it is not.

Recently the problem was brought to light by "Honest John" in his motoring column. http://www.honestjoh...dex.htm?t=66972

A search for Teves Mk60 ABS/ESP module failure will reveal a wealth of internet users suffering from this problem.

Many have had cars that have not done many miles, even just out of the warranty period, and this module has failed prematurely, costing them £1500 to replace.

As it is a fault that is common to all vehicles with the pumps fitted this is a big problem for Volkwagen Audi group and we feel that pressure should be applied to them to issue a recall and fit this component for free.

I await your response with eager anticipation,

Gavin Harper

How about writing to Volkswagen marketing and threatening to cause a stink that will make Toyota's dodgy accellerators look like a storm in a teacup?

It would be a good idea to add the following facts;

1. The MK60 ABS/ESP unit is is a non-serviceable part and as such is intended to last the lifetime of the car.

2. The fault in question is inherent in the design and as such the inevitable failure is not influenced by the service record of the car.

3. The inherent design fault makes the unit 'unfit for purpose'. Given the G201 sensor fails the unit cannot function as intended due to its design and manufacture.

4. Skoda customers who will suffer from this failure were offered this 'feature' as a premium option at an additional expense of around 350 UKP. Customers who did not opt for this higher cost feature will not suffer from the fault. In essence customers paid 350 pounds extra for an inevitable repair bill in excess of 1,500 UKP.- (I think I'm right in this. Please correct me if I'm wrong)

[Rhoobarb]

Complaint sent

[TsvRS]

My apologies if I have skimmed over this but is this unit still being fitted? It would beggar belief if it is because VAG would then be very much in the same shoes as Toyota in that they would be consciously choosing to continue fitting a faulty/dangerous part in full knowledge of a problem.

I will happily add my voice to the throng but it will only have true meaning to Consumer Direct if from one who is affected by it I would have thought?

[Rhoobarb]

Im curious as to what circumstances they fail, is it just a matter of time before these things fail or is it just 'x' amount of failures for every 'y' amount of cars? Also for example, if I switch my ESP off, will that delay the problem or will it still fail regardless? Can these things be taken from a breakers car and fitted or is it programmed to the car? I read that the units are not servicable, but is the £1500 dealer replacement the only option aailable?

Edited 4 March, 2010 by Rhoobarb

[blueR36]

Mine failed 4 months out of warranty . dealer serviced full history ,27500 miles or just short when it happened .DM Keiths in Bradford pushed Skoda GB for goodwill. It was replaced and i paid £625 towards. :S

[Obadiah]

I wrote to Consumer Direct, as suggested, had an acknowledgement from someone in Kent. Just received a call from my local Trading Standards.They have contacted VOSA, who are not interested 'because this fault would not caus e a catastrophic failure of the braking system' (thier words!!).

All I have been offered is that the case will be transferred to Milton Keynes Trading Standards 'so that they are aware of the matter'. I suggested that they would simply add it to thier pile!!

[TsvRS]

I am not sure if this adds any new information but under the sale of goods act the supplier is liable for up to 6 years for any fault that could be shown to make the goods not conform to contract.. Seee extract here http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html

Only problem is that after six months the onus is on the buyer to make his case and not on the supplier to defend it.

So all we really need is an enterprising lawyer to pick up the case . . .maybe?

[Tomson]

If I undersood corectly, the new 2010 Octavias for shure don't have this problem? (as I ordered one in february)

[gurujockstrap]

So basically, if your Octy has ESP, and the ESP light on the dash is constantly illuminated (pressing the ESP button doesn't turn it off) then you have this ABS failure and potentially huge bill?

My Octavia is out of warranty and I'm contemplating taking out a £200 warranty to cover against a potential £1500 repair bill.

[Hauptmann]

As I have mentioned before on this forum I am ex-motor trade. I still have a mate who works as a tech at a local VW dealership. Apparently with the Mk60 units its a case of WHEN not IF the units will fail. He reckons the unit was modified sometime earlyish in 2008 to reduce the chances of failure.

VAG have shipped very large numbers of these units as spare parts to meet the demand for replacements. I also gather that they have been availble from TPS for around £650-700 for some time - so people who are paying 'only' £650 for the repair are in fact paying more or less the full cost of the unit. Those who are paying £1500 are being ripped off. I think its all a scandal really.

I can't for the life of me understand while people aren't going the Small Claims Court route. Its dead easy and the most you are risking is the £70 fee. From my own experiences in the motor trade the chances of winning should be very high. Note that the SCC is also open to those who bought their car secondhand, just take a SCC summons out against the supplying dealer. Give them one change to fix it (put details in writing, give them 14 working days and send by Special Delivery).

All this hoping for goodwill and arguing with dealers is a waste of time, you are playing with very hard-nosed dealers who have seen it all before and are under great pressure to keep warranty and goodwill costs to an absolute minimum.

If enough dealers get hit with SCC summons (which cost them a lot to defend) then they will bend the ear of Skoda UK and something will get done. This is what happens in the US where the car buying public are not as weak-willed as in the UK.

Edited 6 March, 2010 by Hauptmann

[Bob Upndown]

What's really needed is a definitive "evidence pack" that we can all use to go to the small claims court. Ideally we need a report from a recognised organization (RAC, AA) clearly stating that the design is flawed.

[Nortones2]

I wrote to Consumer Direct, as suggested, had an acknowledgement from someone in Kent. Just received a call from my local Trading Standards.They have contacted VOSA, who are not interested 'because this fault would not caus e a catastrophic failure of the braking system' (thier words!!).

All I have been offered is that the case will be transferred to Milton Keynes Trading Standards 'so that they are aware of the matter'. I suggested that they would simply add it to thier pile!!

Perhaps the responder was unaware of the Transport Research Labs report "S280D/VD: Antilock brakes: their influence on accidents" - here is a link http://preview.tinyurl.com/yksa8l5

It points up a significant increase in accident rates with non-ABS vehicles. This was 1999 - there may be later TRL reports. But, it makes a nonsense of their attitude that failure of the Teves device is without safety impact.

[Raglits]

Perhaps the responder was unaware of the Transport Research Labs report "S280D/VD: Antilock brakes: their influence on accidents" - here is a link http://preview.tinyurl.com/yksa8l5

It points up a significant increase in accident rates with non-ABS vehicles. This was 1999 - there may be later TRL reports. But, it makes a nonsense of their attitude that failure of the Teves device is without safety impact.

As far as I am aware, this failure doesn't stop the anti-lock brakes from working, but does stop the ESP from working...

[Nortones2]

As far as I am aware, this failure doesn't stop the anti-lock brakes from working, but does stop the ESP from working...

Thanks for that! Nevertheless there would be some reduction in safety I asume, if the ASR facility were to fail?

[Phil_P]

Thanks for that! Nevertheless there would be some reduction in safety I asume, if the ASR facility were to fail?

I think if you're relying on traction control to avoid accidents then you're probably an accident waiting to happen anyway. IMHO these technologies tend to save you when you're otherwise driving too fast for the conditions which I believe is the approach VOSA are taking.

VOSA have looked at it and made a decision - I don't think there's much point pursuing that route.

I agree with a poster above - a more fruitful route seems like the small claims court to put pressure on the dealers to further pressure Skoda (UK). If there's a significant failure rate, and it's a non-serviceable part then it's not fit for purpose and they should cover the cost of replacement, especially where a main dealer full service history is present.

[Nortones2]

I think if you're relying on traction control to avoid accidents then you're probably an accident waiting to happen anyway. IMHO these technologies tend to save you when you're otherwise driving too fast for the conditions which I believe is the approach VOSA are taking.

VOSA have looked at it and made a decision - I don't think there's much point pursuing that route.

I agree with a poster above - a more fruitful route seems like the small claims court to put pressure on the dealers to further pressure Skoda (UK). If there's a significant failure rate, and it's a non-serviceable part then it's not fit for purpose and they should cover the cost of replacement, especially where a main dealer full service history is present.

Loss of control is not necessarily down to wilful excess speed. There are many other scenarios where the driver is unable to deal with an event. I think the potential cut from reductions in accidents is why the EU will make ESP a mandatory fitment from November 2011. As to whether such reliance on technology is wise in the long term, I have my doubts. But driver competence seems to be diminishing already:)

[Nortones2]

An amplification of my point re VOSA.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ye8y2va on ABS doubts. Little evidence of a positive benefit from ABS.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yctguet European Commission on road safety calculates a 25% road death reduction, which is why mandatory ESC fitment is being implemented.

ABS is mandatory from 2004 I believe and where there are defects, VOSA have issued recall notices. PSA have been one example. VOSA accept ABS defects as a safety issue (see their CoP) but have not woken up to the risks accompanying defective ESC. Curious.

Phil-P may well be right that pursuing VOSA is pointless. But when ESC is mandatory, will they still maintain the stance that failure is not a safety issue?

An extract from VOSA Code of Practice:

"The Code deals with information to be given to VOSA and to the owner/registered keeper in respect of passenger cars, commercial vehicles, passenger service vehicles and components fitted as original equipment. This document does not cover motor cycles, trailers, motor caravans or components supplied to the automotive aftermarket, or any vehicles more than ten years old.

A "safety defect" is a feature of design or construction liable to cause significant risk of personal injury or death.

The Cases covered by the Code are those where:

a) the evidence indicates the existence of a safety defect in the vehicles; and

the defect appears to be common to a number of vehicles; and

c) some of the vehicles involved have already been sold for use in the UK.

In some cases, it will be matter of judgement to decide whether the number of vehicles affected by a defect is sufficient to justify invoking the Code. No fixed numerical limit can be specified because the decision must also take account of the degree of seriousness of any possible road hazard involved."

Edited 7 March, 2010 by Nortones2

[Hauptmann]

On cars equipped with the Mk60 unit the stability control feature (ESC, ESP) is driver selectable - i.e. you can enable or disable it with a button. It is therefore an 'optional' driver aid and it is doesn't function this is not an MoT failure and your insurance continues to be valid.

[Raglits]

On cars equipped with the Mk60 unit the stability control feature (ESC, ESP) is driver selectable - i.e. you can enable or disable it with a button. It is therefore an 'optional' driver aid and it is doesn't function this is not an MoT failure and your insurance continues to be valid.

Does that mean I don't have the MK60 as I can only turn traction Control on or off, the ESP is always enabled...

[Hauptmann]

Does that mean I don't have the MK60 as I can only turn traction Control on or off, the ESP is always enabled...

Don't know what you have. On the Mk60 vehicles I have seen there is an ESP switch (near the aircon controls) and it is used to turn the ESP off. Sounds like you have ASR switch (traction).

[susi]

Checked this with my dealer this morning. They will offer goodwill in the event of failure.

[Minimoke]

Apologies for bumping my own thread but got a reply from Skoda late Friday regarding identifying whether a particular vehicle is fitted with a Teves 60 (the problem unit) or a Teves 70 (the OK unit).

In summary what they seem to be telling me is that they cannot identify the id of the Teves unit purely from the VIN number (WTF??????). Instead I must go to a Skoda/VW dealer and ask them to attach their computer and interrogate the ECU to find out this information. This is probably chargeable (say Skoda).

Others have reported that the Teves 60 is installed in cars with ESP, the others should have Teves 70. But the only way of telling it seems is to get the dealer to interrogate the ECU. is there a possibility that they may use 60 units anyway in some cases?

I'm sorry this is not conclusive but this is what Skoda UK have told me.

[bond007]

send me your registration dont see why they cant tell you pretty sure i can

[neharris]

Are the units being fitted now still called a TEVES Mk60? My wife's car had to have this replaced last week and I want to make sure they have replaced it with a modified unit. When my Ross-Tech cable arrives (part of Group Buy) I want to interogate the unit and see what it is. Is there any way of seeing if its a revised unit or the same as the unit that failed.

FYI my wife and I both have 56 plate 2.0TDI Octavia 4x4's bought new at the same time. Her's has now only done 14K miles and the unit failed, mine has done 44K miles and is still okay. I'm glad I took the extended warranty out on them in November though. The potential cost of the repair more than offset the warranty for both cars! Now keeping fingers crossed mine fails while still under the extended warranty ;-)