Whilst a lot of the cheapy leads on eBay don't support CAN, there are some that do....

My question is; what can you do with one of these cheapy leads? Do they come with any software and can you do any of the same stuff that you can do with more expensive kit.

Is there such a thing as an "open source" alternative to VAG COM?

If a cheap chinese lead supports can, then its a hacked and therefore illegal product. The only official product to support CAN as used in the MK2 octy, Superb and newer Audi/VW cars is VCDS and it is only available through official resellers like Gendan or Ross-Tech. Discussion of illegal versions of the lead/software is not allowed and any threads will be deleted. There is a GB currently running where you can get the official cable/software for a substantially discounted price.

Gavin,

I see what you are trying to do (save money) however as Mannyo has said the Cheap cables on Fleabay & the like are hacked products.

Also why risk plugging in a cheap cable that could damage to your pride & joy's ECU?

Personally i would rather spend £200-300 on a genuine cable than a cheap one which you ask to do one thing, Potentially does something else and FUBAR's the ECU

A new ECU is a lot of money.

Carl

Don't be tight. The proper ones are under £200 and you're not just paying for the lead, you're financing the continued development of the software which is vital as new models and controller revisions come out.

The authorised software essentially describes about 10,000 error codes, and allows basic reprogramming of some functions? Or am I missing something?

The full software gives you more than 30,000 fault codes, gives advanced settings that you can alter easily. VCDS is the only software that can connect and modify settings on the Octy2, Superb2 etc. This software in turn only works with the official authorised cable as the cable itself contains a hardware key. Without the hardware key the software does not work, and any cable that supports can and the latest version and is cheap will be an illegal cable.

Is there such a thing as an "open source" alternative to VAG COM?

To best of my knowledge, have never come across an open source VW/Audi diagnostics package. Some of the modules for particular applications were open source - VAGscope and TDIgraph come to mind. At one time we asked for people to supply open sourced apps to run along with VAG-COM but almost none were ever submitted for evaluation.

All of the CAN based cheap product on eBay are illegal copies of our product. They cannot function without infringing on our copyright protection of our product. I will not go into the details of that because one never knows who is watching and I certainly would not want to help those who steal our product.

Just to confirm these cables do work and function as a genuine one would, BUT they come with software which cannot be updated and are illegal.

Buy a genuine one! I did and it's one the best tools I've ever purchased.

To best of my knowledge, have never come across an open source VW/Audi diagnostics package. Some of the modules for particular applications were open source - VAGscope and TDIgraph come to mind. At one time we asked for people to supply open sourced apps to run along with VAG-COM but almost none were ever submitted for evaluation.

All of the CAN based cheap product on eBay are illegal copies of our product. They cannot function without infringing on our copyright protection of our product. I will not go into the details of that because one never knows who is watching and I certainly would not want to help those who steal our product.

Do you have developer API's so that you can hook into VAG-COM and do things through applications.

Do you have developer API's so that you can hook into VAG-COM and do things through applications.

I know it was available at one time but when no one submitted applications, I believe the capability was removed. I'll be out of the office for a couple days but will check on this and let you know when I get back.

I know it was available at one time but when no one submitted applications, I believe the capability was removed. I'll be out of the office for a couple days but will check on this and let you know when I get back.

Thanks, would be quite nice if they still existed.

I always find the moral position of Ross-Tech a bit dubious when they complain very strongly about 'pirated' versions of their leads. After all, Ross-Tech have built up a very profitable business by reverse-engineering and 'cracking' a the VAG VAS-1552 tool. Ross-Tech is not approved/licensed/authorised by VAG and yet is wholly dependent on proprietary VAG technology and the work of VAG engineers.

BTW, I think VCDS is a great tool and use it (and paid for it) myself - just pointing out the moral aspect to this product.

I always find the moral position of Ross-Tech a bit dubious when they complain very strongly about 'pirated' versions of their leads. After all, Ross-Tech have built up a very profitable business by reverse-engineering and 'cracking' a the VAG VAS-1552 tool. Ross-Tech is not approved/licensed/authorised by VAG and yet is wholly dependent on proprietary VAG technology and the work of VAG engineers.

BTW, I think VCDS is a great tool and use it (and paid for it) myself - just pointing out the moral aspect to this product.

Could not have said it better my self.

OK - I can see this one is a bit of a 'CAN' of worms, if you will forgive the pun... I am just trying to understand everyone's position properly.

So in summary; there are no other bits of software that can be used to interface with a Skoda ECU than VCDS / Ross Tech?

Is this what they use at a Skoda Dealership?

I don't wish to get precious about this or take the thread in a direction which will get it deleted, but clearly this is a multi-faceted debate and I'd like to understand it before laying out the reddies.

I can see that the leads with genuine software look like very good value; and this is probably the direction that I will go in; but to begin with I'd like to understand the debate properly and make an informed purchase.

Are there documented instances of people mucking up their ECU's by using cheap leads or could this just be due to user error with the software? The leads themselves I guess from what I am reading must come with pirate versions of Ross-Tech software is this correct? There is no other software that will do the same thing?

I was of the impression that OBD-II was an open standard used by many vehicles with many bits of software made by lots of different people that could freely interact.

When people say that cheap chinese leads are infringing Ross Tech's IP; what do they mean? Is it the physical lead itself or the software they come with?

Without wishing to tread too closely to a conversation that would endanger any of Ross-Tech's Intellectual Property; what actually is "proprietary" about a USB - OBDII CAN lead? Surely there is just a chip in there which acts as a serial - USB converter and this chip is just another generic chip? What is it that Ross-Tech have the monopoly on; am I being dim or missing th point?

For anyone else who is a bit of an electronics buff; someone like Elm sell chips for OBD-II interfacing... http://www.elmelectronics.com/obdic.html

So; by 'hacked' this is to say a Chinese lead which supports CAN; is actually in fact a copy of a Ross-Tech product? Or is it the software they are supplied with that is the copied bit? Surely the lead itself can't be "patented" as such; for example I knwo it's a different application, but if I buy a JVC video recorder, and want a scart lead to connect it to my telly, the scart lead is a standard thing that is in the public domain, and anyone can rack up and start making SCART leads - how is this different?

This software in turn only works with the official authorised cable as the cable itself contains a hardware key. Without the hardware key the software does not work, and any cable that supports can and the latest version and is cheap will be an illegal cable.

I guess the answer is here - so the lead is both a "dongle" as it were which validates the product as well as being a physical connection between the PC and car?

I always find the moral position of Ross-Tech a bit dubious when they complain very strongly about 'pirated' versions of their leads. After all, Ross-Tech have built up a very profitable business by reverse-engineering and 'cracking' a the VAG VAS-1552 tool. Ross-Tech is not approved/licensed/authorised by VAG and yet is wholly dependent on proprietary VAG technology and the work of VAG engineers

BTW, I think VCDS is a great tool and use it (and paid for it) myself - just pointing out the moral aspect to this product.

The full software gives you more than 30,000 fault codes, gives advanced settings that you can alter easily.

Surely it is the car I have bought that comes with 30,000 fault codes; and the software is only relaying to me what the car is saying? Have I understood this correctly?

Having not used any of the software, I'm in the dark until I purchase, so I wanted to make sure that I'm making and informed purchase.

Just enquiring...

The prices on this site make VAG-COM really seem like the bargain everyone claims; but what are the products these lot are selling? Is it just something hacked, or is this another group of people developing software?

Some of the "tools" look a bit dodgy.

http://www.vag-info.com/VAG%20Group%20products.htm

There are plenty of tools that'll interface with Skodas. OBD II is a standard that'll let you read and erase emissions related fault codes (in theory) on any compliant vehicle. That's its limit, no recoding control units and no looking at any other control unit apart from the engine control unit. The dealers use the VAS system, which costs £1000s, VCDS is very close to the VAS with what it can do at a fraction of the price. Due to its popularity, there is plenty of information/user experience about as to what can be done with it. I suspect that the manufacturers of cheap leads are in it just for the money, trading on the VCDS brand to add value to their product.

With regard to reverse engineering, car munufacturers often 'tear down' competitors cars to see how they are made

and to cost them.

See some of my answers below.

Is this what they use at a Skoda Dealership?

No, they use a system that can be more restrictive on what you can achieve.

Are there documented instances of people mucking up their ECU's by using cheap leads or could this just be due to user error with the software? The leads themselves I guess from what I am reading must come with pirate versions of Ross-Tech software is this correct? There is no other software that will do the same thing?

Yes, there is one such instance on this forum. The member concerned managed to flash their dashpod with duff software which pretended to be something else.

I was of the impression that OBD-II was an open standard used by many vehicles with many bits of software made by lots of different people that could freely interact.

There are different implementations, you can use some VCDS on several manufacturers cars but you cannot access all the controllers, same the other way round accessing VAG cars.

When people say that cheap chinese leads are infringing Ross Tech's IP; what do they mean? Is it the physical lead itself or the software they come with?

Ross-Tech own the patent, and these companies are operating by hacking ross tech products and reverse engineering them before illegally modifing the VCDS software. Who know what other code they add to the product that may damage your ecu. They are renowned for selling copies of windows for example with viruses and trojans embedded.

Without wishing to tread too closely to a conversation that would endanger any of Ross-Tech's Intellectual Property; what actually is "proprietary" about a USB - OBDII CAN lead? Surely there is just a chip in there which acts as a serial - USB converter and this chip is just another generic chip? What is it that Ross-Tech have the monopoly on; am I being dim or missing th point?

The ross-tech cable contains a software dongle which VCDS uses to get its license key, the chinese hackers have to illegaly modify the software to override the check. Who know what other code they add to the product that may damage your ecu. They are renowned for selling copies of windows for example with viruses and trojans embedded.

So; by 'hacked' this is to say a Chinese lead which supports CAN; is actually in fact a copy of a Ross-Tech product? Or is it the software they are supplied with that is the copied bit? Surely the lead itself can't be "patented" as such; for example I knwo it's a different application, but if I buy a JVC video recorder, and want a scart lead to connect it to my telly, the scart lead is a standard thing that is in the public domain, and anyone can rack up and start making SCART leads - how is this different?

The lead is patented, because it also contains a lot of electronics, without the electronics you would fry your car or laptop/pc. its not just a standard lead.

I guess the answer is here - so the lead is both a "dongle" as it were which validates the product as well as being a physical connection between the PC and car?

Yes

Surely it is the car I have bought that comes with 30,000 fault codes; and the software is only relaying to me what the car is saying? Have I understood this correctly?

Yes, but you can also modify the cars programming, eg. the way the central locking works, the alarm, DRLs, Service status and so on.

The OBD standard is a generic open standard maintained by governements and to which all cars sold in respective markets (e.g. US, Europe etc) must abide.

However in addition to the generic OBD there is also the provision of a so-called 'Enhanced Mode' which allows for manufacturer implementation of their own unique codes to give functionality over and above the basic OBD provision. The original idea being that the major emissions-related faults could be diagnosed by ANY repairer but a more sophisticated level of diagnosis would be afforded to the vehicle manufacutrer's agents and therefore give them some competitive advantage. So, for example, a Ford workshop scan tool will give basic OBD information on a GM car, but offer enhanced diagnostics on Ford vehicles.

Obviously, as things have developed (and with the implementation of CANbus) manufacturers have been able to offer more and more sophisticated diagnostic facilities to their dealerships - in addition to the basic OBD.

What Ross-Tech did, 10+ years ago, is to reverse-engineer ("hack & crack") the VAG VAS diagnostic tool and write software which interprets and displays the unique VAG additional codes. So ANY compliant scan tool will give basic diagnostics, but Ross-Tech will give a lot of additional information by fully explioting that data that VAG cars supply to the tool.

There is nothing remarkable about the Ross-Tech lead, but it does incorporate a dongle that unlocks their software. I suspect the Chinese leads do not come with hacked VCDS software, rather they incorporate a sort of "clone" dongle which will work with certain versions of VCDS software but not work if you update the software. I am not sure that Ross-Tech could have any Patents on their lead (other than trademarks etc.) - it would be interesting to know if they do.

The whole issue of reverse-engineering manufacturer's proprietary diagnostics is a bit of grey area and certainly the manufacturers are lobbying hard to make it illegal and remove products like Ross-Tech from the market because they undermine the investment that the dealers and manufacturers make in developing they diagnostic systems and they also undermine efforts to ensure that cars are serviced to dealer standards by trained staff.

In a strictly legal sense products like VCDS are illegal in the US under the DMCA which makes it an offence to break or reverse engineer the software and/or hardware of diagnostic tools. An argument is also going on in Canada over the reverse engineering of automotive diagnostic tools and reverse engineering in general (e.g. video players, video game console hardware and software etc etc).

I suspect we are heading for a big clampdown in Europe because there are concerns over activities like 'remapping' etc., which may see ECU's locked down more and more tightly.

For the record I have a genuine bought-and-paid-for VCDS lead and have never owned a Chinese lead.

Ah the plot thickens! So Ross-tech have hacked in the VAG codes and are selling this on for £200 to private users? What's authorised about that? To be fair I can't believe it's £200 how hard can it be to chuck someone elses error codes into a very basic UI with limited reprogramming of some functions?

Yes, it's the reason I've always found Ross Tech getting shirty so funny!

It's like a burglar pointing fingers at a shoplifter and shouting "thief"

Reverse engineering always happens in all fields.

As far as I can see didn't hack anything.

Hacking and reverse engineering are very different things with very different approaches.

To be fair to Ross Tech they haven't (as far as I know) copied any of VAG's software but have instead written their own to do the same job, so good luck (and thanks) to them for doing that.

That said I find the smoke and mirrors about intelectual copyright and patents on the lead a bit rich. A lead is a lead, the memotec u600 I have just bought has an ODBC lead, as do the official VAG tools, and as do the pirate software suppliers on ebay - it is after all a standard open specification and without patents. If there is anything special about the RT lead it is *probably* just the extra copy protection hardware they have put into it allow their sales model of charging for the lead while allowing free distribution of their software - which then only works with the locked lead. As far as I can judge there seem to be two pirate versions around, one using cracked software to run with a simple standard lead and the other using a specially made lead working only with a specific version of the VAG-COM software - both of these being rather naughty legally but they may not mind too much in China.

As an alternative to the cheaper (and illegal) rip offs of vag-com software there is a halfway house in getting something like the u600. This *claims* to provide all the functions of a VAG 1552 (like vag-com does), whilst additionally including standalone hardware (no pc needed) and connector to run the software and all at half the vag-com price. Seems like a bargain, probably isn't as nice to use as vag-com, but is a cheaper and still a legal solution. I'll post results when mine arrives and I have had chance to try it out.

Yes, it's the reason I've always found Ross Tech getting shirty so funny!

It's like a burglar pointing fingers at a shoplifter and shouting "thief"

Reverse engineering is basically taking something that someone else has made and breaking it up to find out how it works. This is what happens in all fields. According to what people on here have said, Ross tech have taken something that VAG has made, discovered how it works, and are then selling on the ability to decipher VAG's knowledge without their say-so because it doesn't seem to be a VAG endorsed product. What is the difference between that and an "illegal" chinese lead based that uses Ross-tech's software without their say-so?

Bear in mind I'm not having a pop at Ross-tech everyone on here seems happy with the product.

Edited 18 March, 201016 yr by Irvtheswerv

Legally, the rip-offs don't just reverse engineer RT's work but instead infringe their copyright. They distribute modified RT software that has been cracked to ignore the cables dongle (thus breaking copywright) and/or include their own type of dongle in the cable. I could be wrong here but I believe you can't just copy a dongle legally like some other bit of hardware, the contents of the dongle are I understand treated as software i.e. they are also covered by copywright.

So in the end the difference comes down to whether you are bothered by software piracy or not, and that one product is legal and the other isn't (in some countries at least).

Reverse engineering is basically taking something that someone else has made and breaking it up to find out how it works. This is what happens in all fields. According to what people on here have said, Ross tech have taken something that VAG has made, discovered how it works, and are then selling on the ability to decipher VAG's knowledge without their say-so because it doesn't seem to be a VAG endorsed product. What is the difference between that and an "illegal" chinese lead based that uses Ross-tech's software without their say-so?

Bear in mind I'm not having a pop at Ross-tech everyone on here seems happy with the product.