DS2500 "track day only" pads

[muckipup]

Not sure where the best place to post this question was but I noticed some sellers like JKM describing Ferodo DS2500s for the TFSI as "track day only" pads so I'll ask it here. I know a bunch of folks on here run them so I wanted to ask what the (potential) insurance implications are?

Just out of interest, what is the rating/approval scheme needed to make pads OK for road use?

[dan_the_v8man]

The only reason there listed as track only pads is because they haven't got the wear sensor on them. To get them to work without alarming you take you old pads, snip the wires and solder them together. Plug the plug back in and bobs your uncle. I never trust the wear indicator personally anyway, check them every time I have the wheels off instead

Had DS2500's on my last 3 cars, only downside, they sometimes squeal when pulling up

[Jabbasport]

I'd class the DS3000's as "track day only".

DS2500's are "fast road"

Kev

[Sammycarp]

Presumably as long as the Insurance Company are aware that they're fitted, it shouldn't be a problem?

[rob_e]

On my previous cars I've run several different makes / compounds - as far as I'm concerned this is not an insurance issue. Just like if you have an OEM oil filter v.s Unipart etc..

[Johnny50]

Ran DS2500's in a few cars too. Totally fine, and as Kev said, they're more a fast road, than a track day pad in my experience too.

[m0bov]

Any change to your car which differs from the factory spec is deemed a mod.

[dan_the_v8man]

so if you bought some pads for your car from a spares supplier rather than Skoda you'd then phone your insurance company up and tell them?

What about if you buy a used car? do you then go round making sure all the parts are OEM?

What about tyres?

[Hauptmann]

Yet another technical thread with a lot of misinformation.

DS2500's are not approved to ECE R90 ("Reg 90") and therefore must not be used on public roads on vehicles manufactured from end of 1999 onwards. Basically DS2500's are for off-road only and not legal for use on the road. You insurance will not be valid. Look for a pad which is Reg-90 approved if you want to use it on the road - your insurance will cover you with any Reg 90 pad.

[simonsheil]

There is as far as I am aware no requirement for aftermarket parts to be type approved.

Scrub that what he said is right since 2001 in the UK in actual fact.

Oh well will have to add that to the list of laws I am breaking. What a bad citizen I am. :|

Edited 16 March, 2010 by simonsheil

[muckipup]

Yet another technical thread with a lot of misinformation.

DS2500's are not approved to ECE R90 ("Reg 90") and therefore must not be used on public roads on vehicles manufactured from end of 1999 onwards. Basically DS2500's are for off-road only and not legal for use on the road. You insurance will not be valid. Look for a pad which is Reg-90 approved if you want to use it on the road - your insurance will cover you with any Reg 90 pad.

Thanks Hauptman, that is the "rating/approval scheme" that I was thinking of in the first post - I just couldn't remember the name and didn't know what it implied i.e. if lack of ECE 90 would simply mean informing insurance or if it truly made pads illegal for road use. Your post would suggest both and that DS2500s are illegal on the road

Edited 16 March, 2010 by muckipup

[Hauptmann]

Further to my reply further up, just to add emphasis, here is some marketing text re. the DS2500's from Balance Motorsports..

"Ferodo DS2500 is a very popular pad for trackday users and also for outright circuit use on the shorter events. DS2500's chief characteristic is it offers a very high level of friction. DS2500 also offers excellent pedal modulation and feel. DS2500 gives you the confidence to drive accurately and smoothly on track, braking late but safe. DS2500 pads have been a big seller from Balance Motorsport for some time. DS2500 pads are also very driver friendly having excellent pedal modulation and feel. Please remember these pads are not reg 90 approved and therefore any car made later than 2000 should only use these pads on track!"

I believe that Ferodo manufacture a 'performance pad' which IS reg 90 approved and is a milder version of the DS2500.

[rob_e]

Further to my reply further up, just to add emphasis, here is some marketing text re. the DS2500's from Balance Motorsports..

"Ferodo DS2500 is a very popular pad for trackday users and also for outright circuit use on the shorter events. DS2500's chief characteristic is it offers a very high level of friction. DS2500 also offers excellent pedal modulation and feel. DS2500 gives you the confidence to drive accurately and smoothly on track, braking late but safe. DS2500 pads have been a big seller from Balance Motorsport for some time. DS2500 pads are also very driver friendly having excellent pedal modulation and feel. Please remember these pads are not reg 90 approved and therefore any car made later than 2000 should only use these pads on track!"

I believe that Ferodo manufacture a 'performance pad' which IS reg 90 approved and is a milder version of the DS2500.

Thanks for clarifying. My lotus was a '98 so that's why it was not an issue for me..

[dan_the_v8man]

Yet another technical thread with a lot of misinformation.DS2500's are not approved to ECE R90 ("Reg 90") and therefore must not be used on public roads on vehicles manufactured from end of 1999 onwards. Basically DS2500's are for off-road only and not legal for use on the road. You insurance will not be valid. Look for a pad which is Reg-90 approved if you want to use it on the road - your insurance will cover you with any Reg 90 pad.

I stand corrected.

Any idea why they dont meet ECE R90? As far as im aware there far superior to OEM pads even under cold conditions or is it simply because they dont come complete with wear sensors?

Edited 16 March, 2010 by dan_the_v8man

[m0bov]

so if you bought some pads for your car from a spares supplier rather than Skoda you'd then phone your insurance company up and tell them?

What about if you buy a used car? do you then go round making sure all the parts are OEM?

What about tyres?

All aftermarket parts are done to OEM spec, tyres are the same, same size (shape!) and speed rating are fine. If you change the spec of the tyres (fit larger) or add uprated shocks or even add decals like stickers or mudflaps, they are mods. Its always best to check with your ins co themselves as its them you would need to deal with in the event of a claim. Adding anything that enhances the performance, value or apperance of the car is always worth checking on.

[Hauptmann]

I stand corrected.

Any idea why they dont meet ECE R90? As far as im aware there far superior to OEM pads even under cold conditions or is it simply because they dont come complete with wear sensors?

No, its not the wear sensors, they are not part of Reg 90. It is most likely that the frictional characteristics don't meet Reg 90. Probably they are over-aggressive on the disc. This is the reason why Mintex had to withdraw their 'Extreme' range - it couldn't meet Reg 90 on disc wear/damage.

[dan_the_v8man]

makes sense though cant say I agree with it, seems a bit obtuse

[cheezemonkhai]

The R90 was a reason I went for EBC red as opposed to DS2500. I guess it makes the EBC yellow more interesting as they are also R90 and the equivalent to the DS2500.

[muckipup]

The R90 was a reason I went for EBC red as opposed to DS2500. I guess it makes the EBC yellow more interesting as they are also R90 and the equivalent to the DS2500.

Funny you should say that. My interest went from DS2500s to what was R90 approved and a Googlesearch took me to the EBC site. I haven't discounted them but clicked off their website when I saw that EBC Red could take 1000 miles to break in those ceramics I couldn't guarantee that when I won't need them within the first 1000 miles :no:

Edited 16 March, 2010 by muckipup

[dan_the_v8man]

the DS2500's on the other hand feel like OEM pads till they've bedded in and then they really start to bite

[cheezemonkhai]

Funny you should say that. My interest went from DS2500s to what was R90 approved and a Googlesearch took me to the EBC site. I haven't discounted them but clicked off their website when I saw that EBC Red could take 1000 miles to break in those ceramics I couldn't guarantee that when I won't need them within the first 1000 miles :no:

Mine were bedded in within oh about 10 miles of them being fitted, and that was only because the motorway was 5 away from the garage.

I followed the stop tech approach and they stop very very well.

I've been having a DS2500 vs Yellow toss up for the next set, but the R90 stuff is a bit of an interesting one yet again.

[muckipup]

Mine were bedded in within oh about 10 miles of them being fitted, and that was only because the motorway was 5 away from the garage.

I followed the stop tech approach and they stop very very well.

I've been having a DS2500 vs Yellow toss up for the next set, but the R90 stuff is a bit of an interesting one yet again.

Good to hear. I was wondering if EBC were just being a bit over zealous with their advice. I haven't heard of anyone running the EBC Yellows (they are R90, right?) so would be interested to hear your thoughts if you go that route.

Dan - I think many would agree with you that the DS2500s are an excellent pad; I've never seen a bad review on any forum! I guess that the lack of R90 approval is either because Ferodo didn't apply or because, as was mentioned, they had different spec from OEM when it came to disc wear or something. I doubt stopping power would have been the issue.

[Steve vRS]

Is there any case history of an insurance company either checking the pads fitted or refusing a claim due to non-R90 pads being fitted?

Steve

[Hauptmann]

Is there any case history of an insurance company either checking the pads fitted or refusing a claim due to non-R90 pads being fitted?

Steve

No idea, and its probably unlikely. I do know however that when a very serious accident occurs (fatality etc) the police will strip the running gear of the car and look at tyres, brakes, shocks etc very carefully and go as far as measuring disc and pad thickness etc., so it could be picked up at that point. Personally I wouldn't want to run on the road with brake components that are effectively illegal.

I posted on another thread that there was an Italian magazine test (equivalent of Autocar etc) where they did a 'blind test' of performance pads on a couple of Mitsubishi Evo's with race drivers at the wheel. The top scorer was the EBC Redstuff, which beat the DS2500 and Pagid race pads. The DS2500's came third. The downside was greater wear rate of the EBC's but in all other catagories they were better than the DS2500's and drivers liked them better. They measured the frictional coefficients of the pads after some track work and the Reds and DS2500's came out with the same figure (0.50).

[muckipup]

I posted on another thread that there was an Italian magazine test (equivalent of Autocar etc) where they did a 'blind test' of performance pads on a couple of Mitsubishi Evo's with race drivers at the wheel. The top scorer was the EBC Redstuff, which beat the DS2500 and Pagid race pads. The DS2500's came third. The downside was greater wear rate of the EBC's but in all other catagories they were better than the DS2500's and drivers liked them better. They measured the frictional coefficients of the pads after some track work and the Reds and DS2500's came out with the same figure (0.50).

Now that would have been an interesting read, I don't suppose you remember the magazine and issue by any chance?

The reason that I ask is that I am trying to get my head around the many posts praising the DS2500s with the mixed reviews that the EBC Red Stuff gets - there are a few posts even on Briskoda saying that the Red Stuff are carp :( . One or two suggest that they chew discs but I thought the R90 test ensured that a pad was at least no worse than OEM with braking, disc wear etc. yet the EBCs have R90 and DS2500s don't. Also, I think the Red Stuffs may have been tainted with historic experiences with an older pad composition and also with peoples' opinions of the Green Stuff pads. Who knows?

I guess there needs to be a few considerations e.g1. do the EBCs need some spirited breaking in (even if only for 10 miles as cheezemonkhai suggests) and failure to do this has led to negative opinions e.g.2 in what conditions are they being judged - EBCs might be better all rounders for road / fast road driving because they work well from cold and at high speed breaking, say on a motorway, but ain't great on the track whereas DS2500s may be better on the track and when warmed up a little (it sounds like Red Stuff don't cut it on the track and Yellow Stuff are more for track days...and even then...!).

Given that the Red Stuff are R90 certified and therefore legal (if your ever unlucky enough to be in a position where that is scrutinised), can't be any worse than OEM when it comes to motorway emergency breaking (the OEMs scare me in that department and the reason why I am looking to change!) and a fair old bit cheaper than DS2500s, it may be more sensible for folks to give the EBC Red Stuff a shot first and see how you get on rather than the other way round.... but only if you don't do track days.

I have a set of slightly worn Hawk HP Plus in the garage and have no idea if they are R90 but may give them a bash first

Edited 17 March, 2010 by muckipup