[skodanut]

I have no concerns that the garage used anything less than that.....they even gave me the contents that was left in the container which i could use for further oil top ups....and the oil was long life and a vw spec oil......but like i said in last thread..no amount of 1st class oil would stop the part from failing......its getting the man from skoda uk to accept this..........or even look into it himself........then maybe he might get an idea why the part failed and can cause so much damage

[Supurbia]

skodanut, on 07 August 2010 - 00:06, said:

I have no concerns that the garage used anything less than that.....they even gave me the contents that was left in the container which i could use for further oil top ups....and the oil was long life and a vw spec oil......but like i said in last thread..no amount of 1st class oil would stop the part from failing......its getting the man from skoda uk to accept this..........or even look into it himself........then maybe he might get an idea why the part failed and can cause so much damage

It's simply the materials used in aren't strong enough, or one is too strong for the other, Roto will know exactly which one wears the other out, iirc it's the drive spline that rounds off, Fiat had a similar issue with the 1.9 JTD engine back in the early 90's, only this time it was to do with the brake servo assistance pump.

Assuming you are localish to me, there is a nice Met Red Superb on Aqua Cars on a 56 plate, it's a Elegance model and driven by a middle aged fella, it's his car and only he drives it, he's had this happen on his car also, so should you be in the petrol station at the sametime, or see him about, it might be worth a tap on the window to compare stories, he's friendly so don't worry about getting told to sod off.

[skodanut]

Thanks for that info on the superb owner who drives an elegance. Actually i live in stubbington, i dont know where you are based supurbia, but i do recall seeing someone who fits that description driving that car..its just a case of catching him at the right time. It would be interesting to hear his version of events and how much he paid to get his car fixed. Its a pity he isnt on here ! then we can all get a wealth of information on the failure side and the repair side.

At the moment i am thinking of the worst case senario what with the whole engine ruined...but at the moment i'm trying to figure out how to up the goodwill gesture with skoda uk....i dont see why i should have to pay the bulk of the money for the repair....and with the skoda dealer possibly going to look into it, i prefer a fixed price on what i might be asked to contribute....preferably nothing as far as i'm concerned, as skoda uk basically sold me a car with an engine that is not fit for purpose.

[Supurbia]

He managed to escape with a turbo and new oil pump, came to around £1000 or just over, but that was an Indy fixing it, and getting the Turbo direct from Garrett.

As it's a cab, he couldn't get any goodwill, and it was at 80k iirc that it happened to him.

If yours went while the engine was at low revs and got shut off very soon after, there's a good chance yours will require the same, if not it will be to the smelter for that lump.

This post has been edited by Supurbia: 08 August 2010 - 01:52

[skodanut]

Seems that he did get off fairly lightly what being the turbo and oil pump...my wife just happened to be turning a corner and did about 40yds before the warning light came on. After asking her various questions about the engine prior to the oil light coming on, i asked her if there was any unusual noises inside the cabin...any signs of roughness or vibration....but she said no...warning light just came on ! So my thinking is its quite feasable, that i mite get off lightly.....but gut instinct tells me that if the pump was failing right up towards the end, then i could be looking at more expense. It all depends when the pump decided to fail and opperate on much reduced vital pressure .

i certainly didnt get any oil light warning the week before, and the car seemed fine...plenty of power when needed...but then again. if there was oil still inside the cylinder head then yes it would continue to function, but slowly deteriorate as well as the turbo.Personally i think there should of been a warning sooner rather than later via a warning light and maybe a message, and possibly the expense would have been very much reduced. My main concern is that i dont feel that i should have to pay for a engine fix regardless of the cost...after all the guy at skoda uk is all for finding out what the problem is and going from there!! Who's going to pay for the inspection and the parts for getting the car back on the rd? thats providing the engine is serviceable...knowing my luck, i will be saddled with more expensepossiblly to the tune of a few grand and still owe on the car !!

Im not a mechanic....but i can say i know about engines to a point and their main functions....and to me, if the pump was basically dying, the the rest of the engine was dying too especially at the top end...so why should skoda uk expect me to pay for something they knew was faulty and they also knew that it was possible for further engine damage to happen due to the heart of the engine failing and expect me to act as if i know nothing about cars and thinking that i am going to pay...like you say superbia...this is only just the beginning.

Mean while, the superb greenline is being delivered next week and that will take my mind off it and give me a chance to gather more information on the possible causes of failure..and basically arm myself with enough knowledge that the man from skoda uk will just have to keep upping the goodwill...cos i'm not going to let this one get away.

[samson1]

anybody got photo or scematic diagram of this part on oil pump that fails?

[Supurbia]

It would seem VW have done a Peugeot here, fixed something that ain't broken, and the end result is going to cost them for many years to come, still, at least Peugeot will fix your car if they are at fault, I agree with Roto, Toyota will be my next car, the dealer customer care is a million miles infront of VAG, they've had the pedal issue and held their hands up because it's a real safety issue, so what did VAG do when their cars were cutting out at 70 mph due to a faulty pump? NOTHING!

Andy, I'd be looking to cancel that Greenline myself, use it as a lever tool to get the other one fixed.


I bought the Passat, but I'm begining to wish I hadn't, as far as I know mine is too new for the oil pump issue, but I still have niggles in my mind that the injectors may fail at high speed and I'll be left without power in the wrong lane, meaning if I have the kids onboard I have to remain in the inner lane so I can hit the hard shoulder should it happen, or the steering ECU fail with the same results, you can't expect perfection, but some accountability wouldn't go a miss, I feel this my second VAG car will be my last, and it will be gone within the first year of owning it, the other one was magic I have to admit, I can't fault that car, but since that one, everything VAG has been problematic, and the fact VAG won't stand behind their product says time to look elsewhere next time.

This post has been edited by Supurbia: 09 August 2010 - 13:07

[Fred Bloggs]

Too true. I have had 1 Golf, 1 Passat, 3 Fabias, 1 Octavia and 1 Superb. I will not buy another VAG vehicle because of this. My next car is probably going to be a Toyota too.

[samson1]

my next new car will be vauxall life time warr or 100000 miles great!

[ian0x0r]

samson1, on 09 August 2010 - 08:48, said:

anybody got photo or scematic diagram of this part on oil pump that fails?

I had a look on elsawin for a schematic but there seems to be bugger all related to this engine in it :S

[skodanut]

Well suprburbia i did mention to my wife and asked how she felt about cancelling the superb greenline and using that as a lever to getting our superb repaired....and apart from going off into one i thought it would be wise to keep her sweet and leave it be....its due for delivery all being well on saturday...and she desperately needs transport for the work that she does. I suppose one can only rely on friends for a certain time before they start to wonder if they are being taken for a ride themselves...so the greenline superb remains un cancellable in my wife's eyes.

I have looked online and searched some forums, and that was pretty mind boggling the number of vw based customers who are experiencing oil pump failures on their cars. I did download info on the oil pump issue and the chain driven balancer drive for the oil pump...and it showed the teeth basically worn away to excess and the chain pops off and stops the drive causing the damage...it even shows the modified pump from chain drive being converted to gear drive opperated via the crankshaft, and basically its like two gears meshed into unison...so basically wear is eliminated and oil pressure is always there....but its not a cheap fix....it still depends if they find further problems with the turbo...or cylinder head....but of course they would only fit the modified oil pump if they were happy that the other components were of a servicebale nature and could be re-used again.

Or better still, rather than do that time consuming work themselves, it would be easier to purchase the bottom half of the engine complete...but then were talking big money.....and i have no intention of being presented with a big bill at the end of it.

[rotodiesel]

The situation with the balancer PD engines is a little more complex.

VAG had 2 tries at this design and have subsequently made detail mods. My theory is that the later 2.0 PDs were designed by the office boy whilst the "real" engineers were busy working on the CR engines. It would be fair to assume also that they also "forgot" to do any endurance testing - maybe the suckers which VAG seem to regard so disdainfully as customers do this for them.

The first balancer PD such as the BHW engine had a chain drive from crank to the primary balancer shaft - and predictably failed. If you see pictures on the Internet of sprocket wheels with the teeth worn off, it's one of these. These engines were never fitted to Superbs to my knowledge. Audi owners who get the "upmarket VAG goodies" first, know all about them to their cost. As Audi owners pay a premium, there was presumably more goodwill around than there is for Skoda - but there are still plenty of Audi drivers out there who were severely out of pocket.

The next go was a gear drive in which the primary shaft was driven from the crank via an intermediate gear - a bit like the old BMC mini primary drive. A Lanchester balance system has to rotate at twice crank speed though so the driven primary balancer shaft wheel is half the diameter of the crank wheel. The 2.0 PD Superb has this design fitted. A retrofit kit was made available to salvage the chain driven engines such as the BHW - usually at the customer's considerable expense.

The oil pump is driven via a hex coupling from the slave balancer shaft, partly to act as a damper to reduce gear rattle. Unfortunately, the torsional oscillation in the drive (possibly made worse by a resonant condition) kills the coupling. Think of your washing machine with an unbalanced load at critical spin speeds and this gives a clue as to the probable nature of the failure.

I believe that the hex drive coupling to the oil pump has been considerably strengthened on the later engines - those fitted to early 2.0 PD Superbs were pathetic and drove on the outermost corners of the hex bar. Not surprisingly, the drive fails. I've not yet seen a later coupling - so presumably they've now fixed the problem.

I think the later oil pump and coupling can be retrofitted to an earlier engine - but that's not a lot of use if the bearings are shot. Of the failed PD engines I've seen, the casualties always seem to be the main bearings and the turbocharger - the crank pins and camshaft roller followers usually survive for a bit longer unless the engine goes a long way without oil pressure.

I wouldn't willingly accept a repaired engine - once run without oil they're seldom as good as they were and don't generally last long.

rotodiesel.

This post has been edited by rotodiesel: 09 August 2010 - 23:04

[cheezemonkhai]

As I said in my previous post, just get a lawyer to fill in the legal action paperwork and submit it.

You sue the dealer you purchased the car off and skoda will support the the dealer should they lose.

The car is less than 6 years old, of a low mileage, you have full service records from a main dealer and there is evidence it's a known issue.
I don't see how you can lose (I am not a lawyer).

If the 40% "goodwill" is off the retail price and fitting then I would think that means that would still have you paying more than the raw cost to skoda.

[rotodiesel]

The flaw in the above argument is the non "Skoda" servicing. We all know it makes no difference whatsoever, but VAG will claim that the vehicle has not been properly maintained. They will argue that they cannot be expected to rectify a vehicle not serviced by themselves, as the servicing procedures implemented were out of their control.

Common sense and real justice just don't apply in these cases - I've seen many of them.

In court, they would win.

rotodiesel.

[cheezemonkhai]

rotodiesel, on 10 August 2010 - 09:38, said:

The flaw in the above argument is the non "Skoda" servicing. We all know it makes no difference whatsoever, but VAG will claim that the vehicle has not been properly maintained. They will argue that they cannot be expected to rectify a vehicle not serviced by themselves, as the servicing procedures implemented were out of their control.

Common sense and real justice just don't apply in these cases - I've seen many of them.

In court, they would win.

rotodiesel.

In that case you sue both the supplying dealer and the servicing dealer and let them argue it.

If VAG says not serviced according to our requirements and they prove this to be the case, then the servicing dealer is liable as long as you have a bill saying it was serviced to spec, due to them failing to do the work requested and the engine failing as a result of this.
.
If VAG can't prove this was not the case then they are liable because the car was not of sufficient durability.

I don't see what you've got to lose myself as 40% goodwill at a main dealer is still going to be a lot more than a recon engine at an indy.

If more people sued manufacturers (and not just VAG) in cases like this rather than taking goodwill, then maybe they would be less able to justify this business model to the bean counters.

This post has been edited by cheezemonkhai: 10 August 2010 - 10:55

[rotodiesel]

It doesn't work like this. In law, the supplying dealer with whom there was a contract, has a duty to provide goods which are of merchantable quality. You have no contract with VAG.

There cannot possibly be an answerable case against the servicing dealer at this point as there is no evidence. The supplying dealer doesn't have to prove that the servicing dealer did the work to spec as there was no contract existing between them. The onus is on the vehicle owner to prove that the work was done correctly.

We are into professional opinion territory - and I've done a bit of this in the course of my work. My advice to the owner of this unfortunate car is to apply for goodwill from VAG by all means possible, but not to spend any money with them at all. When VAG decline to do anything without an "investigation", jump off and get the whole job done elsewhere.

If there is unrestricted parking near the supplying dealer, the car could be left there with a big notice inside it - the local paper might like a sniff too. If you do this, judge the point at which you implement this extremely carefully and don't burn all your boats. Remember that your objective is a free repair - and you don't give a toss about the supplying dealer or VAG.

rotodiesel.

[skodanut]

I dont have an issue with the supplying dealer.....they already said they are just a franchise and have other cars including skoda all under one roof. So basically they told me to take up the issue with skoda uk as they supplied themselves with the car i ordered ....but there is a point in remembering, that i purschased my car through vw finance, which in my opinion makes it sound as if not only skoda sold me a car with a faulty engine, they even financed it !! wether i can use that as a leverage to get maximum goodwill i dont know...but at the moment i am waiting for my local garage to give skoda uk all the serving proof...ie oils / filter...why i dont know....even they should know that my engine required 5w/30 as it has the dpf.

Even the indy garage i used is skoda approved...albeit in the body work repair...but even using the genuine parts, they are just as good as the main dealer...if not better in my opinion...ive seen some of the mechanics at my local dealer, and they look a bit too young to be let loose with mop let alone an engine !!

I've just got to wait on replies from a couple of emails ive fired off and go from there...and hopefully the ball will start rolling again and the plot thickens....keep you informed....skodanut

[Supurbia]

God, if i'd known you had it on VW finance, I could've given you a perfect out, this would be to return the car under the 50% paid rule, when the transporter would've arrived you simply give him the key and let him fire it up without oil drive, then deny any knowledge of it being broken, when they maon, you could then have said, well waht does an engine with less than 40k on it being terminal say about your quality, and let it to them to decide if they wanted the court case or not.

However, as thats not an option, you'll have to go down a different path, for those reading I had issues with this dealer (Sparshatts of Fareham) but I came to the conclusion that it wasn't them, it was Skoda putting up the barriers, all their staff I met with one exception I couldn't really fault, and the one I could was the main spiller on behalf of Skoda, so again, not really his fault, it would appear to me, if there isn't a fix that Skoda will pay for, they leave the dealer to lie to the customer until the customer agrees to pay for something that should be done FOC, and this will be the undoing of VAG, many ppl believe the VAG hype, and will buy a car, had they bought pre 04 they wouldn't be disappointed, but now instead of nurturing an increasing customer base, they are putting up barriers and will lose these potential 5 purchases customers over silly things, resulting in 1 purchase instead of 5, I myself would cancel the Greenline to prove a point, you are in your rights to do so, as you have evidence that the car might not be fit for purpose, and your faith is compromised, mind you whan if comes to talking to the missus it's a whole new ball game.

With such a cracking range of cars, why do VAG insist on being so Arthur Daley about it.

[cheezemonkhai]

rotodiesel, on 10 August 2010 - 15:44, said:

It doesn't work like this. In law, the supplying dealer with whom there was a contract, has a duty to provide goods which are of merchantable quality. You have no contract with VAG.

There cannot possibly be an answerable case against the servicing dealer at this point as there is no evidence. The supplying dealer doesn't have to prove that the servicing dealer did the work to spec as there was no contract existing between them. The onus is on the vehicle owner to prove that the work was done correctly.

We are into professional opinion territory - and I've done a bit of this in the course of my work. My advice to the owner of this unfortunate car is to apply for goodwill from VAG by all means possible, but not to spend any money with them at all. When VAG decline to do anything without an "investigation", jump off and get the whole job done elsewhere.

If there is unrestricted parking near the supplying dealer, the car could be left there with a big notice inside it - the local paper might like a sniff too. If you do this, judge the point at which you implement this extremely carefully and don't burn all your boats. Remember that your objective is a free repair - and you don't give a toss about the supplying dealer or VAG.

rotodiesel.

By VAG in the sue them both post, I meant the supplying dealer.

As you correctly said, the only contracts you have are with the supplying dealer and the garage that serviced the car.

So if the SD says poor servicing then you can call on the servicing garage to prove they did.
Yes it's opinion, but one of them will be deemed to be wrong and then it comes down to the court to decide their liability.
Either way it's not your issue and they should have business liability insurance.

skodanut, on 10 August 2010 - 21:38, said:

I dont have an issue with the supplying dealer.....they already said they are just a franchise and have other cars including skoda all under one roof. So basically they told me to take up the issue with skoda uk as they supplied themselves with the car i ordered ....but there is a point in remembering, that i purschased my car through vw finance, which in my opinion makes it sound as if not only skoda sold me a car with a faulty engine, they even financed it !! wether i can use that as a leverage to get maximum goodwill i dont know...but at the moment i am waiting for my local garage to give skoda uk all the serving proof...ie oils / filter...why i dont know....even they should know that my engine required 5w/30 as it has the dpf.

Even the indy garage i used is skoda approved...albeit in the body work repair...but even using the genuine parts, they are just as good as the main dealer...if not better in my opinion...ive seen some of the mechanics at my local dealer, and they look a bit too young to be let loose with mop let alone an engine !!

I've just got to wait on replies from a couple of emails ive fired off and go from there...and hopefully the ball will start rolling again and the plot thickens....keep you informed....skodanut

I know you have no issue, the problem is the VAG approach seems in my opinion to be if you have a problem and are not happy with the offer, then you'll have to sue the people that sold you the car.
Make it known to your dealer and the servicing garage that it's nothing personal if a court order comes through.

I could be wrong, but I think if court paperwork starts turning up at your supplying dealer, they may suddenly become a bit more willing to push the matter with VAG, who might be a bit more willing to do something more.

Either way, you seem to have the option of ending up out of pocket, or to sue the supplying dealer for supplying goods which are not of sufficient quality.

I know it's not nice, but it's that or be very out of pocket yourself.

As I said above I'm not a lawyer, so do check out all the facts first with a qualified one.

This post has been edited by cheezemonkhai: 11 August 2010 - 00:54

[rotodiesel]

VAG and the other car makers have been along this route hundreds of times and they know how the system works.

If goodwill breaks down, you will have to pay for an independent examination of the failed engine in order to pursue your claim. In the course of a previous job, I have done some of this work and I know what my fees were. Insane money in relation to the real cost of fixing this problem.

VAG, the legal profession and the independent experts all have the job sewn up and will basically make a lot of money out of your misfortune. You will not necessarily win, so you may still have an unusable vehicle at the end of it all.

By all means try for goodwill first - always be fair and reasonable. If this fails though, for less than the costs incurred in fighting this case, you can have your engine repaired by a trustworthy independent at a far lower level of risk to you. You can then sell the vehicle for something like its market value. Don't let principle get in the way of practicality - you'll lose money if you do.

I'm afraid "justice" just doesn't work for the average punter - there are far too many experts with good livings to make who will get in the way.

rotodiesel.