Well suprburbia i did mention to my wife and asked how she felt about cancelling the superb greenline and using that as a lever to getting our superb repaired....and apart from going off into one i thought it would be wise to keep her sweet and leave it be....its due for delivery all being well on saturday...and she desperately needs transport for the work that she does. I suppose one can only rely on friends for a certain time before they start to wonder if they are being taken for a ride themselves...so the greenline superb remains un cancellable in my wife's eyes.

I have looked online and searched some forums, and that was pretty mind boggling the number of vw based customers who are experiencing oil pump failures on their cars. I did download info on the oil pump issue and the chain driven balancer drive for the oil pump...and it showed the teeth basically worn away to excess and the chain pops off and stops the drive causing the damage...it even shows the modified pump from chain drive being converted to gear drive opperated via the crankshaft, and basically its like two gears meshed into unison...so basically wear is eliminated and oil pressure is always there....but its not a cheap fix....it still depends if they find further problems with the turbo...or cylinder head....but of course they would only fit the modified oil pump if they were happy that the other components were of a servicebale nature and could be re-used again.

Or better still, rather than do that time consuming work themselves, it would be easier to purchase the bottom half of the engine complete...but then were talking big money.....and i have no intention of being presented with a big bill at the end of it.

The situation with the balancer PD engines is a little more complex.

VAG had 2 tries at this design and have subsequently made detail mods. My theory is that the later 2.0 PDs were designed by the office boy whilst the "real" engineers were busy working on the CR engines. It would be fair to assume also that they also "forgot" to do any endurance testing - maybe the suckers which VAG seem to regard so disdainfully as customers do this for them.

The first balancer PD such as the BHW engine had a chain drive from crank to the primary balancer shaft - and predictably failed. If you see pictures on the Internet of sprocket wheels with the teeth worn off, it's one of these. These engines were never fitted to Superbs to my knowledge. Audi owners who get the "upmarket VAG goodies" first, know all about them to their cost. As Audi owners pay a premium, there was presumably more goodwill around than there is for Skoda - but there are still plenty of Audi drivers out there who were severely out of pocket.

The next go was a gear drive in which the primary shaft was driven from the crank via an intermediate gear - a bit like the old BMC mini primary drive. A Lanchester balance system has to rotate at twice crank speed though so the driven primary balancer shaft wheel is half the diameter of the crank wheel. The 2.0 PD Superb has this design fitted. A retrofit kit was made available to salvage the chain driven engines such as the BHW - usually at the customer's considerable expense.

The oil pump is driven via a hex coupling from the slave balancer shaft, partly to act as a damper to reduce gear rattle. Unfortunately, the torsional oscillation in the drive (possibly made worse by a resonant condition) kills the coupling. Think of your washing machine with an unbalanced load at critical spin speeds and this gives a clue as to the probable nature of the failure.

I believe that the hex drive coupling to the oil pump has been considerably strengthened on the later engines - those fitted to early 2.0 PD Superbs were pathetic and drove on the outermost corners of the hex bar. Not surprisingly, the drive fails. I've not yet seen a later coupling - so presumably they've now fixed the problem.

I think the later oil pump and coupling can be retrofitted to an earlier engine - but that's not a lot of use if the bearings are shot. Of the failed PD engines I've seen, the casualties always seem to be the main bearings and the turbocharger - the crank pins and camshaft roller followers usually survive for a bit longer unless the engine goes a long way without oil pressure.

I wouldn't willingly accept a repaired engine - once run without oil they're seldom as good as they were and don't generally last long.

rotodiesel.

Edited 9 August, 201015 yr by rotodiesel

As I said in my previous post, just get a lawyer to fill in the legal action paperwork and submit it.

You sue the dealer you purchased the car off and skoda will support the the dealer should they lose.

The car is less than 6 years old, of a low mileage, you have full service records from a main dealer and there is evidence it's a known issue.

I don't see how you can lose (I am not a lawyer).

If the 40% "goodwill" is off the retail price and fitting then I would think that means that would still have you paying more than the raw cost to skoda.

The flaw in the above argument is the non "Skoda" servicing. We all know it makes no difference whatsoever, but VAG will claim that the vehicle has not been properly maintained. They will argue that they cannot be expected to rectify a vehicle not serviced by themselves, as the servicing procedures implemented were out of their control.

Common sense and real justice just don't apply in these cases - I've seen many of them.

In court, they would win.

rotodiesel.

The flaw in the above argument is the non "Skoda" servicing. We all know it makes no difference whatsoever, but VAG will claim that the vehicle has not been properly maintained. They will argue that they cannot be expected to rectify a vehicle not serviced by themselves, as the servicing procedures implemented were out of their control.

Common sense and real justice just don't apply in these cases - I've seen many of them.

In court, they would win.

rotodiesel.

In that case you sue both the supplying dealer and the servicing dealer and let them argue it.

If VAG says not serviced according to our requirements and they prove this to be the case, then the servicing dealer is liable as long as you have a bill saying it was serviced to spec, due to them failing to do the work requested and the engine failing as a result of this.

.

If VAG can't prove this was not the case then they are liable because the car was not of sufficient durability.

I don't see what you've got to lose myself as 40% goodwill at a main dealer is still going to be a lot more than a recon engine at an indy.

If more people sued manufacturers (and not just VAG) in cases like this rather than taking goodwill, then maybe they would be less able to justify this business model to the bean counters.

Edited 10 August, 201015 yr by cheezemonkhai

It doesn't work like this. In law, the supplying dealer with whom there was a contract, has a duty to provide goods which are of merchantable quality. You have no contract with VAG.

There cannot possibly be an answerable case against the servicing dealer at this point as there is no evidence. The supplying dealer doesn't have to prove that the servicing dealer did the work to spec as there was no contract existing between them. The onus is on the vehicle owner to prove that the work was done correctly.

We are into professional opinion territory - and I've done a bit of this in the course of my work. My advice to the owner of this unfortunate car is to apply for goodwill from VAG by all means possible, but not to spend any money with them at all. When VAG decline to do anything without an "investigation", jump off and get the whole job done elsewhere.

If there is unrestricted parking near the supplying dealer, the car could be left there with a big notice inside it - the local paper might like a sniff too. If you do this, judge the point at which you implement this extremely carefully and don't burn all your boats. Remember that your objective is a free repair - and you don't give a toss about the supplying dealer or VAG.

rotodiesel.

I dont have an issue with the supplying dealer.....they already said they are just a franchise and have other cars including skoda all under one roof. So basically they told me to take up the issue with skoda uk as they supplied themselves with the car i ordered ....but there is a point in remembering, that i purschased my car through vw finance, which in my opinion makes it sound as if not only skoda sold me a car with a faulty engine, they even financed it !! wether i can use that as a leverage to get maximum goodwill i dont know...but at the moment i am waiting for my local garage to give skoda uk all the serving proof...ie oils / filter...why i dont know....even they should know that my engine required 5w/30 as it has the dpf.

Even the indy garage i used is skoda approved...albeit in the body work repair...but even using the genuine parts, they are just as good as the main dealer...if not better in my opinion...ive seen some of the mechanics at my local dealer, and they look a bit too young to be let loose with mop let alone an engine !!

I've just got to wait on replies from a couple of emails ive fired off and go from there...and hopefully the ball will start rolling again and the plot thickens....keep you informed....skodanut

God, if i'd known you had it on VW finance, I could've given you a perfect out, this would be to return the car under the 50% paid rule, when the transporter would've arrived you simply give him the key and let him fire it up without oil drive, then deny any knowledge of it being broken, when they maon, you could then have said, well waht does an engine with less than 40k on it being terminal say about your quality, and let it to them to decide if they wanted the court case or not.

However, as thats not an option, you'll have to go down a different path, for those reading I had issues with this dealer (Sparshatts of Fareham) but I came to the conclusion that it wasn't them, it was Skoda putting up the barriers, all their staff I met with one exception I couldn't really fault, and the one I could was the main spiller on behalf of Skoda, so again, not really his fault, it would appear to me, if there isn't a fix that Skoda will pay for, they leave the dealer to lie to the customer until the customer agrees to pay for something that should be done FOC, and this will be the undoing of VAG, many ppl believe the VAG hype, and will buy a car, had they bought pre 04 they wouldn't be disappointed, but now instead of nurturing an increasing customer base, they are putting up barriers and will lose these potential 5 purchases customers over silly things, resulting in 1 purchase instead of 5, I myself would cancel the Greenline to prove a point, you are in your rights to do so, as you have evidence that the car might not be fit for purpose, and your faith is compromised, mind you whan if comes to talking to the missus it's a whole new ball game.

With such a cracking range of cars, why do VAG insist on being so Arthur Daley about it.

It doesn't work like this. In law, the supplying dealer with whom there was a contract, has a duty to provide goods which are of merchantable quality. You have no contract with VAG.

There cannot possibly be an answerable case against the servicing dealer at this point as there is no evidence. The supplying dealer doesn't have to prove that the servicing dealer did the work to spec as there was no contract existing between them. The onus is on the vehicle owner to prove that the work was done correctly.

We are into professional opinion territory - and I've done a bit of this in the course of my work. My advice to the owner of this unfortunate car is to apply for goodwill from VAG by all means possible, but not to spend any money with them at all. When VAG decline to do anything without an "investigation", jump off and get the whole job done elsewhere.

If there is unrestricted parking near the supplying dealer, the car could be left there with a big notice inside it - the local paper might like a sniff too. If you do this, judge the point at which you implement this extremely carefully and don't burn all your boats. Remember that your objective is a free repair - and you don't give a toss about the supplying dealer or VAG.

rotodiesel.

By VAG in the sue them both post, I meant the supplying dealer.

As you correctly said, the only contracts you have are with the supplying dealer and the garage that serviced the car.

So if the SD says poor servicing then you can call on the servicing garage to prove they did.

Yes it's opinion, but one of them will be deemed to be wrong and then it comes down to the court to decide their liability.

Either way it's not your issue and they should have business liability insurance.

I dont have an issue with the supplying dealer.....they already said they are just a franchise and have other cars including skoda all under one roof. So basically they told me to take up the issue with skoda uk as they supplied themselves with the car i ordered ....but there is a point in remembering, that i purschased my car through vw finance, which in my opinion makes it sound as if not only skoda sold me a car with a faulty engine, they even financed it !! wether i can use that as a leverage to get maximum goodwill i dont know...but at the moment i am waiting for my local garage to give skoda uk all the serving proof...ie oils / filter...why i dont know....even they should know that my engine required 5w/30 as it has the dpf.

Even the indy garage i used is skoda approved...albeit in the body work repair...but even using the genuine parts, they are just as good as the main dealer...if not better in my opinion...ive seen some of the mechanics at my local dealer, and they look a bit too young to be let loose with mop let alone an engine !!

I've just got to wait on replies from a couple of emails ive fired off and go from there...and hopefully the ball will start rolling again and the plot thickens....keep you informed....skodanut

I know you have no issue, the problem is the VAG approach seems in my opinion to be if you have a problem and are not happy with the offer, then you'll have to sue the people that sold you the car.

Make it known to your dealer and the servicing garage that it's nothing personal if a court order comes through.

I could be wrong, but I think if court paperwork starts turning up at your supplying dealer, they may suddenly become a bit more willing to push the matter with VAG, who might be a bit more willing to do something more.

Either way, you seem to have the option of ending up out of pocket, or to sue the supplying dealer for supplying goods which are not of sufficient quality.

I know it's not nice, but it's that or be very out of pocket yourself.

As I said above I'm not a lawyer, so do check out all the facts first with a qualified one.

Edited 11 August, 201015 yr by cheezemonkhai

VAG and the other car makers have been along this route hundreds of times and they know how the system works.

If goodwill breaks down, you will have to pay for an independent examination of the failed engine in order to pursue your claim. In the course of a previous job, I have done some of this work and I know what my fees were. Insane money in relation to the real cost of fixing this problem.

VAG, the legal profession and the independent experts all have the job sewn up and will basically make a lot of money out of your misfortune. You will not necessarily win, so you may still have an unusable vehicle at the end of it all.

By all means try for goodwill first - always be fair and reasonable. If this fails though, for less than the costs incurred in fighting this case, you can have your engine repaired by a trustworthy independent at a far lower level of risk to you. You can then sell the vehicle for something like its market value. Don't let principle get in the way of practicality - you'll lose money if you do.

I'm afraid "justice" just doesn't work for the average punter - there are far too many experts with good livings to make who will get in the way.

rotodiesel.

So get the dealer to do the inspection of reason for failure to report back to VAG and insist you have a copy of this.

Also, if you had to get an inspection done by an indy place, then you could claim that as a cost against the other side should you win.

I see what you're saying, but it's ridiculous that they can get away with this.

Not much help, I know, but found this on an "Honest John" website

I might be tempted to look into getting this mod done for (hopefully) a few hundred quid, then fire it up and see what the score is? You never now .. if the revs were low, does the turbo spin? Engines will happily run for a short time with no oil pressure, as proved when you start a car after an oil change and there's those few seconds of noise, followed by the relief of the oil pressure light going out.

Think I'd be tempted to sort the oil pump drive, then fire it up and keep my fingers crossed.

Another problem of 2.0TDI PD 140s and 170s is failure of the oil pump. The oil pump is driven from a balancer shaft via a short hexagonal shaft. The peaks of this hexagonal shaft locate in six corresponding but minute grooves machined within the otherwise circular-bored oil pump drive shaft. Thus, the oil pump drive relies entirely on an interference fit of little more than 0.010" along the peaks of the hexagonal shaft. After about 50,000 miles, the shaft can round off, resulting in a totally destroyed engine and turbo, plus a bill of up to £9,000. If the danger is known and the oil pump is removed by the garage in good time, a new replacement pump will cost over £500, plus the labour etc to remove and refit it. However, it is also possible to save the old pump and modify the drive at a fraction of the cost of a new one. Many local machine shop already have numbers of these pumps in for such rectification, the drive shaft of each having been on the point of rounding off.

Taken from Honest John Website

Whilst the sump is off it would be madness not to remove some (or preferably all) of the main bearing caps to assess the crank condition. If the main bearings have survived, the crank pins will generally be OK. The engine can then be re-assembled with a new or re-worked oil pump and the turbocharger condition assessed.

If the main bearings have not picked up, the engine can be repaired for the price of a new set of main shells and a recon turbocharger. New main bearing shells can be fitted in situ.

But then sell it.

rotodiesel.

Edited 11 August, 201015 yr by rotodiesel

The garage who serviced my car called today to say they are going to fax to skoda uk the items and oil that was used for the superb...all ordered from TPS...so at least skoda uk will identify the part numbers. Having been online for a few late nights searching for information on the oil pump issue, an american so called vw owner forum was mentioning that they too have the issues in the states, mainly passats....didnt mention skoda .....but the feeling over there was the members think the 5w/30 fully synthetic oil is actually no good for the engine....as it is too thin !! One member mentioned the fact the viscoity was too thin and didnt leave any oil on parts that actually needed it the most....hence the chain drive on the oil pump...so in effect the sprocket was wearing away slowly to the point of becoming a circle with no teeth, and the chain which is a harder material just ate into it and took all the teeth off !

So there is a debate as to whether the failed part was inferior or wasnt hard enough to cope with the stresses involved...or whether oil being too thin was to blame....think i'm beginning to sound like roto ....but basically getting back to the superb, at least skoda uk will have the faxed information and we will go from there.

But having read roto's comments, it seems VW via skoda uk have the power and the expertise and the money to basically sqash any legal attempt to get them to repair any item that wasnt done by them...ie the servicing side by the main dealer...so i am now thinking along the lines of trying to get them to up the goodwill, as the way i see it, the mentioning of goodwill is basically a form of admission of the vw group knowing that they knew of the problem !! but i was told it was around 40% because i bought 5 cars from the dealer and nothing else !. I'll mention the vw finance for the superb and pile on the agony and see if i can up the goodwill gesture.....and then ask them to give me a maximum price i should have to pay in order to get the car back on the road. I noticed supurbia's comments on cancelling the greenilne...but if he saw my wife and saw her going into one ...he would see my point and let her drive the new superb... she has enough problems as it is, what with her disability and thats why i'm keeping out of it and letting her decide whats best for her imediate transport side of things....leaving me concentrating on trying to get our superb 140 engine worthy again.....and like rotodiesel quotes...then dispose of it ....so dammed annoying looking at the car knowing if the engine issue was sorted it will just be tempting to keep it...keep you posted.

The garage who serviced my car called today to say they are going to fax to skoda uk the items and oil that was used for the superb...all ordered from TPS...so at least skoda uk will identify the part numbers. Having been online for a few late nights searching for information on the oil pump issue, an american so called vw owner forum was mentioning that they too have the issues in the states, mainly passats....didnt mention skoda .....but the feeling over there was the members think the 5w/30 fully synthetic oil is actually no good for the engine....as it is too thin !! One member mentioned the fact the viscoity was too thin and didnt leave any oil on parts that actually needed it the most....hence the chain drive on the oil pump...so in effect the sprocket was wearing away slowly to the point of becoming a circle with no teeth, and the chain which is a harder material just ate into it and took all the teeth off !

So there is a debate as to whether the failed part was inferior or wasnt hard enough to cope with the stresses involved...or whether oil being too thin was to blame....think i'm beginning to sound like roto ....but basically getting back to the superb, at least skoda uk will have the faxed information and we will go from there.

But having read roto's comments, it seems VW via skoda uk have the power and the expertise and the money to basically sqash any legal attempt to get them to repair any item that wasnt done by them...ie the servicing side by the main dealer...so i am now thinking along the lines of trying to get them to up the goodwill, as the way i see it, the mentioning of goodwill is basically a form of admission of the vw group knowing that they knew of the problem !! but i was told it was around 40% because i bought 5 cars from the dealer and nothing else !. I'll mention the vw finance for the superb and pile on the agony and see if i can up the goodwill gesture.....and then ask them to give me a maximum price i should have to pay in order to get the car back on the road. I noticed supurbia's comments on cancelling the greenilne...but if he saw my wife and saw her going into one ...he would see my point and let her drive the new superb... she has enough problems as it is, what with her disability and thats why i'm keeping out of it and letting her decide whats best for her imediate transport side of things....leaving me concentrating on trying to get our superb 140 engine worthy again.....and like rotodiesel quotes...then dispose of it ....so dammed annoying looking at the car knowing if the engine issue was sorted it will just be tempting to keep it...keep you posted.

I'd still talk to the CAB as a strongly worded letter from a lawyer and a threat to cancel the order for the other car will usually see a favourable result.

I admit that the cost of a lawyer is not a concern that I have, however I'm just thinking that the dealer isn't going to have as much money to throw at a legal challenge as you may think.

Also having their staff, including the guy that took the engine apart and made the diagnosis in court rather than in the work shop isn't good for business either.

I know every dealer up and down the counrty is different.....personally i've had courteous service from my local dealer and to be honest to take legal action against them would basically make me look like a leper in their eyes, and thats the last thing i want. The salesman even calls me by my first name, which in a way goes to show the friendliness of the staff, so to ruin the bond between customer and the dealer isnt exactly what i had in mind...although i can point out in no certain terms that my wife and i feel we have had a very bad deal regarding the engine and its longivity issues...and maybe they can do a bit more to resolve the problem. After all it doesnt take a wizzard to know that a diesel engine if looked after will do a very high mileage....so its no good them saying its what you call bad luck.

its just getting them to admit they do have a problem with the 2.0 engine.....one only has to go online and see the threads left by other owners who suffered the same fate...now some people are saying the 3.6 engine is having pump issues...so thats something else for some unsuspecting owner to worry needlesly about and possibly get checked out.

Makes you wonder if the vw beetle will still be around in another 60 odd yrs time.....they just seem to plod on and on. But i will be seeing the cab.....and get all the facts as to where i stand...and maybe they might come up with something i havent even thought about...but thats next week...meanwhile i'll wait till monday when the man from skoda uk gets the fax of receipts of the servicing that has been done on my car using genuine parts...and he cant grumble because the main dealer didnt do it......thats besides the point.....the parts were genuine full stop......i'd even get a monkey to change the oil if i knew it was more than capapble . Even the dealer wouldnt have known the pump was suspect, and in some threads online...one guy had his audi serviced and the pump went leaving him with a repair bill of 9k and basically the car written off !! this should not be happening and i think its about time something should be done about it.....because at the end of the day when they knew the engines were prone to oil pump failure when owners were coming in for repair, and they were still selling the cars at the time ( all marques ) then to me thats basically defrauding the customer. Sounds like obtaining a sale by deception....and that wouldnt look good in court !

"because at the end of the day when they knew the engines were prone to oil pump failure when owners were coming in for repair, and they were still selling the cars at the time ( all marques ) then to me thats basically defrauding the customer. Sounds like obtaining a sale by deception"

I like that, and should you end up seeing a solicitor I would mention theis FACT to him and see what he thinks.

So obviously here we all were advocating what we thought was the right thing to do, but I'm just wondering if you had any luck either from the dealer, the CAB or another source?

Well an update that id thought id mention on here...had a call and email from the fellow from skoda uk....basically saying that he was satisfied the car had been serviced using genuine parts....well even i knew that as i insisted genuine parts be used, and also the indy i used had a good reputation to uphold, so i knew he would use the parts i requested. Now skoda wants me to take the car to the dealer and let them investigate the problem...but before that, i am going to the cab and getting the low down as to where i stand...legally that is, and also if i either have a leg to stand on or if i dont.....but tomorrow's visit to the cab is purely to make an appointment, and hopefully speak with a solicitor and explain my predictament.

I'm not letting myself in for possible huge expense and basically being at their mercy as regarding determing what went wrong and how much it is going to cost.The fellow from skoda said that he would offer the goodwill when he got the full extent of what was wrong with the engine. As for them looking into what went wrong and knowing my luck, they will take the expensive option, and pile on the estimate to such an extent i would be faced with a huge bill at the end of it...and to me that is not on.

So its going to be a slowish affair, and i intend to do my homework before i decide what to do, and hopefully have the law on my side...and if that is possible, then maybe, just maybe the legal side of things might act on my behalf...and we'll go from there. I've read so many threads on different forums, and basically everyone of them have been fobbed off one way or another by the dealers...i might not get anywhere....but i wont give up without a fight , keep you posted