Winter tyres / Insurance - at last someone is listening

[FatblokeVRS]

Hi All

The BBC are covering the winter tyre insurance rip off at the moment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11969958

They want info about it sent to [email protected]

The SNP have already voiced concerns about this last week and they want insurance companies to actually give incentives for using winter tyres.

Cheers

Dave

[ChrisRs]

I suppose if most of your staff sits in a call centre in India, then the concept of Winter Tyres is an alien one!!

Sanity is restored!!!

[Captain Scarlet]

Indeed madness how they could justify charged a higher premium for someone taking steps to make their car better for the conditions and safer. :no:

[DLW]

This was also mentioned on Radio 1 today

[dilly]

What chance does the country have when our secretary of state for transport, Philip Hammond, thinks that "Winter tyres" are studded? He said the following in Parliament on 3rd December:

Mr Hammond: We have looked at the issue, and in fact David Quarmby addressed it. The use of winter tyres—snow tyres or even studded tyres—and snow chains is appropriate where people drive for long periods through the winter on compacted snow; it is not appropriate in the situation, as in the UK, where snow is on the ground for relatively short periods. Winter tyres wear out very quickly on normal road surfaces and cause significant damage to those surfaces, so they would not be appropriate in the UK situation.

Why don't they just ASK someone?!

Dill

[DLW]

What chance does the country have when our secretary of state for transport, Philip Hammond, thinks that "Winter tyres" are studded? He said the following in Parliament on 3rd December:

Mr Hammond: We have looked at the issue, and in fact David Quarmby addressed it. The use of winter tyres—snow tyres or even studded tyres—and snow chains is appropriate where people drive for long periods through the winter on compacted snow; it is not appropriate in the situation, as in the UK, where snow is on the ground for relatively short periods. Winter tyres wear out very quickly on normal road surfaces and cause significant damage to those surfaces, so they would not be appropriate in the UK situation.

Dill

What a prat, somebody needs to educate this idiot

[stevenmccs]

I used autosocks up here in Scotland during the worst of the bad weather we just had. Only thing I can say about then is that they are staggeringly good. I was even assiting a 4 x 4 which was stuck.

[darrenw]

Of course the ABI would say that. The forget that the reason they charge extra - not to mention an admin fee (yes Tesco, I mean you) is to make more profit.

[juan27]

Playing devil's advocate a bit, but most people who fit winter tyres clearly intend to use their cars in wintery conditions, whereas many drivers just don't go very far if its snowed...I can see how having winter tyres could therefore correlate to a higher claims risk group.

It makes no sense I know that if you have to go out in the snow that you are penalised for fitting winter tyres, but unfortunately the insurance company don't take into account in the first place that you will be driving extensively in wintry conditions.

Of course that's assuming that they aren't just lumping any non standard wheels and tyres in with the guys with 19 inch wheels on their lowered 1.2 Corsas....

[Nick P]

I still don't really get all this.

Where in people's insurance terms does it say anything about declaring winter tyres? They're not in themselves a modification to the vehicle. I appreciate the concept of informing them if fitting some nicer wheels, but winter tyres on standard wheels? I don't know why people have ever worried about that. I don't tell my insurers, because there's nothing in my policy that says I have to. My winter tyres are on standard Skoda Zenith wheels.

[M12MKD]

I still don't really get all this.

Where in people's insurance terms does it say anything about declaring winter tyres? They're not in themselves a modification to the vehicle. I appreciate the concept of informing them if fitting some nicer wheels, but winter tyres on standard wheels? I don't know why people have ever worried about that. I don't tell my insurers, because there's nothing in my policy that says I have to. My winter tyres are on standard Skoda Zenith wheels.

I think most people have opted to go smaller and I think this is where the problem comes from. If you put winter tyres on the alloys/steels fitted when you bought the car then there is no way you need to tell your insurance company. Its when people go down to 16" steels or alloys that is the problem.

[Browny_37]

I still don't really get all this.

Where in people's insurance terms does it say anything about declaring winter tyres? They're not in themselves a modification to the vehicle. I appreciate the concept of informing them if fitting some nicer wheels, but winter tyres on standard wheels? I don't know why people have ever worried about that. I don't tell my insurers, because there's nothing in my policy that says I have to. My winter tyres are on standard Skoda Zenith wheels.

Have to agree with this Nick, what about during the summer months.

A situation arises where by a car piles into the back of the car infront in wet conditions. The car infront has Uniroyal Rainsport 2's on and the car behind has something like these Wanli budgets going around.

Im sure the insurance companies dont take into consideration what level of performance your tyres are capable of delivering in given situations?

So what makes winter tyres any different?

I myself dont have the space or coin for me to use winter tyres, if I did I would do so.

But if I dont think its safe to drive I wont go out in it, hence the car was left at home for two days last week.

[FatblokeVRS]

I think most people have opted to go smaller and I think this is where the problem comes from. If you put winter tyres on the alloys/steels fitted when you bought the car then there is no way you need to tell your insurance company. Its when people go down to 16" steels or alloys that is the problem.

Yes, the problem (or ripoff opportunity) comes from changing the wheels from the standard ones fitted to the car. That may be changing rusty old steel wheels to nice bigger, shiny alloys with nice wide low profile tyres which makes the car look better and is therefore more of a target for thieves and/or losers who don't want to work to buy a car of their own. It also increases the cost the insurance would have to pay out to replace the car with the new wheels. I can see why there would be a premium increase in that kind of situation.

Think about the reason for changing 18" softer than steel wide expensive alloys with wide low profile summer tyres to something else for the winter.

The alloys are much more easily damaged by sliding into the kerb or hitting a snow hidden pothole on the slidy in cold weather summer tyres. It is also much more expensive to replace the alloys and wide (slide about on top of the snow like skis) low profile (less cushioning) tyres than to replace smaller, thinner, stronger steel wheels with smaller thinner (bite into the snow), higher profile (more cushioning) designed for cold weather and snow, winter tyres.

It makes sense, a lot of sense to put smaller, thinner steel wheels and thinner winter tyres on the vehicle in the winter months.

That is why Skoda, in their wisdom, supply, approve and recommend the use of smaller, thinner 16"x6J wheels with winter tyres for the Octavia including the VRS during the winter.

The insurance companies should realise that putting smaller steel wheels on in the winter with winter tyres fitted does not make the car look better or increase its value, they are put on only to increase the safety of the occupants and other road users.

The insurance companies that are charging extra (Tesco for example) are just profiteering. The changing of wheels and tyres solely for increasing road safety in the winter should be taken in the correct context not just the "modification costs extra" context.

Perhaps a letter to your local MP / MSP may help.

Cheers

Dave

[skippy41]

What a prat, somebody needs to educate this idiot

I put mine on at the start of November each year and remove them once down to the wear bars last years Vredesteins lasted 31700 miles and thats taxi mileage

[VRS-R]

I think as we have had some of the worst winters in decades and we are going to see more of it for the next 10 years.

The government needs to change the tyre laws for this country. In most of Europe it's the law to use winter tyres from about September too April I think? It's time the UK does the same.

[Nick P]

From http://www.etyres.co.uk/winter-tyres-law...

France

The use of winter tyres is not mandatory in France. Nevertheless in some mountainous areas signs warn drivers that snow chains are necessary. In France, drivers of vehicles that weigh up to 3.5 tonnes can use spikes from November until the end of March. Vehicles using spikes are restricted to a maximum speed of 90 km/h on out-of-town roads and 50 km/h in residential areas. In addition vehicles have to bare a badge indicating the use of spikes.

Switzerland

Winter tyres are mandatory in Austria between 1st November and 15th April for vehicles not using snow chains. These dates may be extended in weather conditions persist.

Snow chains can only be used if the roads have a complete covering of snow and must be fitted on at least two driving wheels.

Austria

Winter tyres are mandatory in Austria. The law states that passenger cars with a permissible maximum weight of up to 3.5 tonnes may be operated only between 1 November and 15 April in winter conditions such as snow, slush or ice if winter tyres have been installed on all wheels. All-season tyres are also considered winter tyres if they have the "M + S" mark.

As an alternative to winter tyres, snow chains may be used on at least two driving wheels, however, these may only be used in case the road is covered by a complete or scarcely broken snow cover or sheet of ice. Failure to comply with the law results in a fine up to 5,000 Euros and the vehicle could be impounded. Insurance is deemed void if a vehicle which is involved in an accident between November 1 and April 15 is not fitted with winter tyres.

Italy

It is not compulsory to use winter tyres in Italy. Snow chains should be carried and used as dictated by local signs or road conditions - reduced speed limits may apply.

From 15th October to 15th April vehicles must be equipped with winter tyres or snow chains in the Val d'Aosta area.

Finland

In Finland winter tyres are compulsory from 1st December to the end of February unless otherwise indicated by road signs. Winter tyres must be marked with the M&S symbol on the sidewall.

Spiked tyres may be used from 1st November until the first Monday after Easter.

Snow chains are allowed but only where there's sufficient snow to avoid any damage to the road surface.

Latvia

Winter tyres are compulsory from 1st December until 1st March

Spiked tyres are not allowed from 1st May until 1st October

Norway

Winter tyres are not compulsory,however snow chains are as dictated by local road signs - in the event that there is ice or snow covering the roads winter tyres or tyres with snow chains must be used.

Spiked tyres may be used from November 1st until the first Sunday after Easter. If spiked tyres are fitted there is a charge (in Oslo, Bergen and Trondhelm) stickers are available to buy daily, monthly or yearly.

From October 15th until May 1st you are permitted to use spiked tyres in Nordland, Troms and Finnmark.

Sweden

Winter tyres which must be marked M&S are compulsory from December 1st until March 31st with a minimum tread depth of 3mm.

Spiked tyres may be used from October 1st until April 15th but must be fitted to all wheels. Please note that local authorities have the power to ban the use of spiked/studded tyres on their roads.

Snow chains may be used if weather/road conditions require.

Slovenia

Snow chains must be carried from November 15th until March 15th (and when the winter weather conditions necessitate) by cars and vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes unless the vehicle is fitted with four winter tyres with a minimum tread of 3mm. Spiked tyres are prohibited.

Germany

Motorists are obliged to make sure they have correct tyres to suit the winter weather conditions. This may mean the use of winter tyres (with M&S or snowflake symbol) and in extreme weather, the additional use of snow chains.

Vehicles with summer tyres fitted are not allowed to be driven on roads covered with snow and ice. Fines are in place for vehicles found to be doing so.

[dilly]

I think most people have opted to go smaller and I think this is where the problem comes from. If you put winter tyres on the alloys/steels fitted when you bought the car then there is no way you need to tell your insurance company. Its when people go down to 16" steels or alloys that is the problem.

I took the view that, if Skoda put the "S" model on 195/65/15s (6" wheels) then it must be okay to put the same size wheels and Winter tyres on my Elegance (which normally takes 205/55/16s 0n 6.5" wheels). There's no difference in the performance of a 1.4S from a 1.4Elegance presumably!

Anyway, NFU didn't mind. Maybe its the fact that I'm middle-aged and not in a high risk area.

dill

[andyvee]

Insurance implications?

If you fit winter or all-season tyres in place of your standard 'summer' tyres then there should be no need to inform your insurer – even though the speed index might be lower than the standard tyre specified by the car maker.

The lower speed index is still likely to exceed all national speed limits by a considerable margin – with the exception of some German autobahns – and is not checked as part of the passenger car MOT test.

If you follow the standard European practice of keeping two sets of wheels, one fitted with winter tyres and one with summer tyres, then there should be no need to tell your insurer so long as the winter tyres are fitted to steel or alloy wheels of the correct specification.

'Correct specification' in this context means that the wheel size – diameter, width and offset – conforms to the vehicle manufacturer's specifications. Check the vehicle handbook for details of wheel/tyre size combinations suitable for your car model and refer to the car manufacturer or dealer for further advice.

The AA has nevertheless heard reports of some insurers increasing premiums or remarkably even refusing cover if winter tyres are fitted. As a result we recommend talking to your insurer if you are considering fitting winter tyres.

According to the Association of British Insurers (ABI)

If anything winter tyres should reduce the accident risk and, by implication, drivers who fit them are likely to be more risk-conscious too.

The major motor insurers have all confirmed that they would not class fitting winter tyres as a material modification and it would not impact on the premium. The one condition would be that they would expect such tyres to be fitted by reputable garage/dealer, in accordance with the motor manufacturer's specifications.

Some said that they would not require the policyholder to tell the insurer these tyres had been fitted, but the ABI's advice is to play safe and tell your insurer anyway.

Taken from the AA website here.

Edited 13 December, 2010 by andyvee

[luke_a]

The thing is, the only time I have heard someone on here complaining that switching to winter tyres invokes a higher premium (or administration charge), is because they change the entire wheel to a non-standard part. I understand that steel wheels that take thinner tyres are probably safer, I'm no expert, but this higher premium is clearly just a knee jerk reaction to refuse a payout to chavs in their novas with dodgy wheels - and the policy is just a blanket one because insurance companies like doing you for more money. It may be that some insurers that initially cost more, allow you to make changes for no charge (Direct Line have always been good to me in the past), which makes the policy competitive in the long run.

Personally I got winter tyres fitted, on the same wheels, and just keep the other tyres in storage. I didn't inform my insurance company because I think they would be hard pushed to refuse to pay out if I had an accident in Winter with Winter Tyres on the same wheels. I worked out that 4 new wheels, that are the same as mine, would now cost me £720, whilst getting the tyres swapped over costs £30. Sure steel wheels will be cheaper, but still, are you going to have the car long enough to make the extra set of wheels pay off.

Edited 13 December, 2010 by luke_a

[ruffday]

Well ive put winter tyres on my 1.8TSi and its made a big improvment in all conditions especially braking.

I have fitted the same size 205/55/16 but in a H rate rather than a V rate.

But I have had a look in my owners manual and guess what................

Yes skoda recommend fitting Winter tyres if the temperature drops below 7 degrees.

It also states that there is no problem fitting a lower speed rating as long as you dont go over the speed of the tyre which in this case H rate is 130mph.

So how can i be doing anything wrong by doing as the manufacturer recommends.

I dont see how they can increase the premium if I do this.

If anyone has been told thier premium will go up i would argue that it is wht Skoda recommend.

In my case it dosnt really matter to me as its a company car and the company know i have fitted winter tyres so its down to them to sort any insurance issues out.

[darrenw]

Unfortunately, what may seem to be common sense to everyone else, doesn't translate the same when it gets to insurance companies.

All they hear is "after-market wheels" = ££££

[Monkeyboyo]

Common sense prevails -

http://www.smmt.co.uk/articles/article.cfm?articleid=22819

[dgmiller17]

"...That is why Skoda, in their wisdom, supply, approve and recommend the use of smaller, thinner 16"x6J wheels with winter tyres for the Octavia including the VRS during the winter...."

Hi FatBloke - I have a '56 plate Octavia Elegance Estate with the Sport Suspension and 17" Pegasus Alloys. It's a new car to me (bought in the summer). We still run our previous car which is an '02 plate Fabia Estate 1.9TDi. For that I invested in a pair of steel wheels with Vredestein Snowtrac 2 tyres for use in the winter months and fit them to the front axle between about Oct/Nov - Mar/Apr. Anyway, in the recent prolonged spell of snow up here in Aberdeenshire the Octavia behaved like a sledge, while the trusty Fabia barely slipped once. What I'd like to do is invest in a set (or a pair at least for the front axle) of snow tyres for the Octavia, but I wondered whether they would be best fitted onto 17" wheels, or whether it would be more sensible to switch the wheels to a narrower, thinner wheel size since in my experience these behave better in the snow. Then I stumbled across your post...

I don't suppose you have a link to where you read the advice quoted? It makes perfect sense to me, but I'd like to get the lowdown on it before shelling out. Pegasus Alloys come in at £140 a corner - seems a bit steep if they're not going to do the job!

Cheers,

Dave

[Lou_O]

Everything winter wheel and tyre related is here:

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/182447-the-winter-tyres-thread/

Smaller wheels mean cheaper tyres, especially for those running 18" (or bigger?).

[gregoir]

Yes skoda recommend fitting Winter tyres if the temperature drops below 7 degrees.

It is now below 7°C and I do not have winter tyres. Does that mean my insurance will not be valid? I doubt it.

Recommendations are just that and without law to back it up the insurance companies can implement any business driven plan they want.

Edited 16 December, 2010 by gregoir