SKODA OCTAVIA 1.6 FSI Engine failure

[desiskoda]

Hello Friends. I need help, a BIG HELP from some/all of you regarding a situation I have with my SKODA OCTAVIA 1.6 FSI

I have a 56 reg. OCTAVIA that has run ~36k miles. I bought this as a used car from Robinson SKoda in Norwich for £6K when it had 34k on it.

Just before the end of year, my car failed to start. RAC was called and the computers hooked up diagonised a burnt ignition coil.

The car was taken to Citygate Skoda, Colindale as it was still under SKODA RETAIL WARRANTY (came as part of purchase from Robinson SKODA).

Citygate first confirmed the problem was ignition coil. Few days later, he said spark plugs had gone bad - ironically 4 months ago, i spent 500 k to have 4th year/40k miles servicing which involved replacing sparkplugs among other things.

Later they said they needed to remove top of the engine. And latest update is the valves need to be relaped and rebuilt which would cost be 3k!!!

SKODA warranty sent independent assessor who turned down the claim to fix this issue. Reason: not a mechanical failure but wear and tear.

I am shocked to know that a car, 4 years old, 36k miles on it, purchased through not some mom n pop shop,but through a SKODA dealership, suffers a wear and tear of such kind.

Again, the Citygate dealerships explaintion was using poor quality fuel. Since the time of purchase, I have used Super unleaded (97 RON). I don't know what previous owner used. Now, cars of inferior make and model are run on 95 Octane all their lives. And they end up running fine over their lives.

I am not satisfied with this answer from Dealer/Warranty folks that car can have such a problem so early in its life.

I am in no position to pay 3K and intend to seek leagal action against SKODA / Dealership.

Can you please suggest me what options do I have.

A BIG BOLD THANKS to all your inputs

[Fabia00]

Sorry to hear about the issue you are having, I would suggest getting some legal advise probably from trading standards. Out of interest how long have you had the car? If it has a full skoda service history I would call their customer services directly and put a bit of pressure on there and if all else fails contact a consumer magazine such as which or whatcar and see if they can take it up on your behalf.

[desiskoda]

Thanks for your advise Fabi00. I have had this car since last April. Still 3 more months to go for the 1 year warranty.

[Hauptmann]

I suspect you have a strong case against the supplying dealer under the Sale of Goods Act.

You have covered 2k miles in 9 months and had the car serviced according to specification.

I think a Small Claims Court would accept that if the engine needs rebuild work at 36k miles then the fault existed (at least partially) at 34k miles.

The size of the claim puts it in Small Claims Court - but take advice.

If you are an AA/RAC member get advice on the liklihood of the fault arising (from start to finish) in just 2k miles. Also check if you have 'legal cover' as part of your household or car insurance - they may be able to help.

'Poor quality petrol' is not retailed in the UK, only petrol meeting the relevant EN and BS specifications is sold on forecourts. Do they mean the petrol was of the wrong Octane rating?

Your claim is against the supplying dealer - don't confure matters by trying to take action against the warranty company.

Skoda UK MAY help, but legally they are now out of the equation.

Edited 17 January, 2011 by Hauptmann

[ap0gee1978]

I imagine that to be the case. I discounted a 1.6FSI due to rumours about problems. AFAICS, it's not the octane rating as such, but the sulphur content. In this country, higher octane = lower sulphur as a rule, but apparently only BP Ultimate that has a low enough content to meet VAG's specs. If that's the case, VAG should really have made this much more clear to buyers...

[martinch]

Skoda UK MAY help, but legally they are now out of the equation.

Whilst the OP has a claim against the retailer for faulty goods as you've stated, warranties are binding on the supplying company (SUK in this case, I think) under the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002. So, if it can be shown that SUK are trying to worm out of the warranty (as it should also be covered under that), then there may be a claim against them too.

[desiskoda]

THANKS for all the inputs so far.

@HAUPTMANN: I did not understand why the Warrant company is not liable for this, though, the manufacturing company ie. SKODA is answerable in first place as to why their valves develop such a problem at such a short life of car.

If I have to take this matter directly with SKODA, are there any options. You say leagally they are out of equation, which I think is unfair for an owner for the manufacture to wash their hands off such a scenario.

I had taken a loan to buy this car, paying half of that loan amount to make it useable again is not an option at all for me. I am thinking of starting a FACEBOOK campaign as well, though I don't know if legally that is allowed.

I am so confused!!!

[desiskoda]

I imagine that to be the case. I discounted a 1.6FSI due to rumours about problems. AFAICS, it's not the octane rating as such, but the sulphur content. In this country, higher octane = lower sulphur as a rule, but apparently only BP Ultimate that has a low enough content to meet VAG's specs. If that's the case, VAG should really have made this much more clear to buyers...

Thanks ap0gee. The point I was trying to make was, the dealer stated poor quality fuel as one of the causes. However, reading online I found out min RON in UK is 95 (ok, I dont know how much sulphur content it has).

I am sure not everyone affords super unleaded (depending upon what car they have).

[Hauptmann]

I am assuming that the warranty on this is not a Skoda manufacturers warranty, but an aftermarket warranty provided by the dealer. Skoda dealers sell 'Skoda' branded warranties that are provided by Car Care Plan. The reason I said 'go for the dealer' is that the aftermarket warranty is likely to have a variety of terms and conditions, including limitations on payout. You would then get into legal arguments as to whether this aftermarket warranty covered the items needed repair etc. By going for the dealer under SoGA you keep things much cleaner. The case would be far more straightforward. Obviously, once confronted with a Small Claims summons the dealer may apply pressure to the warranty company to foot the bill for the repair - but that's another issue.

[robmawer]

I am thinking of starting a FACEBOOK campaign as well, though I don't know if legally that is allowed.

There's nothing stopping you from doing this, but it's the virtual equivalent of standing on a street corner shouting about it - most of the available audience won't care about your issue, and the people who could actually do something about it won't hear.

In your situation, I'd be getting back onto the warranty company and asking how they can justify burnt valves on a 36k mile car as "wear and tear"...and I'd aim not to get off the phone until they'd given me the answer I wanted to hear. They're warranting the car against this sort of thing, if they believe the issue is with the manufacturer then it'd be for them to seek recompense accordingly...

[robmawer]

I am assuming that the warranty on this is not a Skoda manufacturers warranty, but an aftermarket warranty provided by the dealer. Skoda dealers sell 'Skoda' branded warranties that are provided by Car Care Plan.

Given the age/mileage and that it was bought from a dealer, it'd be covered under the Skoda "Approved Used" Warranty wouldn't it?

[Hauptmann]

Given the age/mileage and that it was bought from a dealer, it'd be covered under the Skoda "Approved Used" Warranty wouldn't it?

It may well be. But that is not a warranty provided by the Skoda car company, its an aftermarket warranty - a 'Skoda Approved' warranty. Most of these warranties are actually more akin to an insurance policy. They are insuring you against mechanical or electrical breakdown, not the gradual deterioration of parts (whether due to manufacturing or design defects, or not). You would need to look at the T&C's in the warranty booklet - it can be a minefield and there WILL be many exclusions.

Take legal advice, but my experience would be that going after the dealer on a SoGA claim is more likely to be successful than pursuing a claim against the warranty company.

[Hauptmann]

In your situation, I'd be getting back onto the warranty company and asking how they can justify burnt valves on a 36k mile car as "wear and tear"...and I'd aim not to get off the phone until they'd given me the answer I wanted to hear. They're warranting the car against this sort of thing, if they believe the issue is with the manufacturer then it'd be for them to seek recompense accordingly...

It is not for the warranty company to justify anything. The customer has a contract with them to cover electrical and mechanical 'breakdown'. This generally means the 'sudden and catastrophic failure' of a part. Very few non-factory warranties cover deterioration of parts, no matter what the cause. Some will cover specific wear items (pads, clutches etc) but these will be specified in the contract. Often specific items are expressly excluded (e.g. wiring looms, trim items, ICE etc.). You need to look in the booklet. The warranty company will never chase the manufacturer, they have no legal relationship with them.

[m0bov]

Take it back to the supplying dealer and ask them to rectify under the contract of purchase.

[desiskoda]

The warrant provided is a SKODA Approved Used Car Warranty. There is a nice little "Warranty exclusion" section that states:

The gradual reduction in operating performance commensurate with the age and mileage of the vehicle. This includes but is not time limited to: a) The gradual loss of engine compression necessitating the repair of valves or rings.

I fear the Warranty company will point me to this section. However it does not define age and mileage for reduction of performance.

Here are the details of work report I got from Citygate yesterday:

1. First the replaced 4 sparkplugs and 2 coil packs. Reason was spark plug on cylinder 3 was not firing so replaced all 4. coil packs were faulty on cylinder 1 and 4.

2. They found oil level sensor faulty and was replaced.

3. After fitting coil packs the electronic reads for misfire was gone but the car was misfiring. They carried out leakage test and found cylinder 1 and 4 to have bad leakage. This is where they said they suspect valves must be burnt out and had to remove the cylinder head. Removing the head confirmed that exhaust vales were burnt out.

4. Recommendations:

a. replace cylinder head GBP 2616

b. rebuild and relap GBP 3023

I am yet to get information from RAC about likelyhood of this problem within 2k miles.

Thanks for all inputs so far

[ap0gee1978]

Oil level sensor looks a bit suspicious to me. I know from way back that leaky second-hand cars would often have the oil pressure / level sensor shorted so that they could be test-driven / passed off at auction without the light going on. Could just be coincidence, but I don't suppose you've been checking the oil using the dipstick on a regular basis to know whether it was leaking?

[desiskoda]

Oil level sensor looks a bit suspicious to me. I know from way back that leaky second-hand cars would often have the oil pressure / level sensor shorted so that they could be test-driven / passed off at auction without the light going on. Could just be coincidence, but I don't suppose you've been checking the oil using the dipstick on a regular basis to know whether it was leaking?

I have had oil changed as part of the 40k servicing. Atleast that is what the service history says about work done

[Hauptmann]

Oil level would not be a factor in burnt valve problems.

[robmawer]

It is not for the warranty company to justify anything.

I was just stating what I'd do - the warranty (whoever actually provides it) is to give peace of mind when buying a used car that it won't suddenly fail in a big way and leave you landed with a large bill...so what's the point in not pursuing it with them? Their independent assessor has given the opinion that it's "wear and tear" - valves generally last longer than 36k miles so I'd be questioning their opinion.

[ap0gee1978]

Oil level would not be a factor in burnt valve problems.

No, that wasn't really my point - more that the car was far from tip-top condition when sold! As has been said a few times, to go from 'fine' to 'knackered' in 2k is pretty unlikely, and it's surely reasonable to believe the damage was there when the car was sold.

TBH, the more I read about burnt valves, the more I see about pre-ignition, which considering the supposed high quality of UK fuels (compared to some other places VAG cars are sold, at least) makes me wonder why they weren't sold with 99RON ONLY stickers plastered everywhere. VAG make a big enough deal about oil specs after all, even though there is no evidence AFAIK to suggest comparable synthetic lubricants cause any damage over the course of most cars' working life...

[Hauptmann]

I was just stating what I'd do - the warranty (whoever actually provides it) is to give peace of mind when buying a used car that it won't suddenly fail in a big way and leave you landed with a large bill...so what's the point in not pursuing it with them? Their independent assessor has given the opinion that it's "wear and tear" - valves generally last longer than 36k miles so I'd be questioning their opinion.

I think the problem is that these warranties are, to some degree. 'mis-sold'. They are actually 'breakdown insurance' and do not usually give the degree of cover that a true (i.e. factory) warranty provides.

Normally they don't cover things that 'wear out' (whatever the reason) only things that actually 'break'. So if a valve drops off, you're covered, if it burns out then you're not.

I have read that used car 'warranties' are a big aspect of complaints to office of fair trading. Mostly they don't give 'peace of mind', although that is what you are sold...

I know when I was in the motor trade with my dad, years back, a lot warranties would, for example, exclude gaskets and consumables. This meant that if the cylinder head cracked, you were covered. If the head gasket blew, you weren't!

I remain suspicious of all aftermarket warranties for this reason.

[blueR36]

Appalling the way you have been treated , I think the local paper would love a story like this, that guy from Scotland who got a full payout for his g201 ABS sensor springs to mind

[Hauptmann]

I think the most disappointing thing about this saga is that the dealer was probably well aware of the potential from problems with this FSI engine. It has been known about for at least 5-6 years.

Basically, if you don't run with an ulta-low-sulphur petro (BP Ultimate Shell Optimax etcl then the valve stems become sticky and the valves don't shut properly. This leads to burnt valves. The ECU spots an emissions-related problem (becuase the valve is not closing properly the emissions shoot up) and shuts down the offending injector and gives a misfire. The dealer will have seen numerous examples of this because its been a major problem, especially with hire and lease cars that are usually fuelled with 95RON.

Really, it is the dealer that is culpable and I have a certain sympathy with the warranty company for not wanting to cover this failure. This failure cannot have arisen within just 2k miles and its likely it was the reason the car was traded in. The dealer is IMHO fully liable and should fit a new cylinder head. The car should then be run on a low- or no-sulphur petrol.

[countryboy]

Ultra low sulphur petrol has been around for years, so how come we have not heard of a lot more claims for burnt out valves, there could be another reason for the valves burning out and that is incorrect adjustment, leading to blow by of the exhaust gases. Getting a facebook campaign going is the last thing I'd do as that will alienate you and make the dealer less likely to want to help you. If possible I'd try to get some independant knowledge on your side and go back to the dealer armed with this knowledge. £3000 to recondition a cylinder head seems way excessive to me, especially when you can get one for £2600.

Sale of goods act is a good place to start at as you would expect a life of way in excess of 40,000 miles for a car engine. Getting small claims court involved might just well push them into action to as dealers don't like bad press.

AFAIK, ultra low sulphur petrol was introduced as a result of catalytic converters being introduced, sulphur in a cat makes the rotten egg smell and causes particulate production. It should have no bearing on the valves, that was the problem when unleaded fuel was introduced, which meant manufacturers had to introduce hardened valve seats and the fuel makers introduced additives to replace the lead.

Ian

[countryboy]

The warrant provided is a SKODA Approved Used Car Warranty. There is a nice little "Warranty exclusion" section that states:

The gradual reduction in operating performance commensurate with the age and mileage of the vehicle. This includes but is not time limited to: a) The gradual loss of engine compression necessitating the repair of valves or rings.

I fear the Warranty company will point me to this section. However it does not define age and mileage for reduction of performance.

Here are the details of work report I got from Citygate yesterday:

1. First the replaced 4 sparkplugs and 2 coil packs. Reason was spark plug on cylinder 3 was not firing so replaced all 4. coil packs were faulty on cylinder 1 and 4.

2. They found oil level sensor faulty and was replaced.

3. After fitting coil packs the electronic reads for misfire was gone but the car was misfiring. They carried out leakage test and found cylinder 1 and 4 to have bad leakage. This is where they said they suspect valves must be burnt out and had to remove the cylinder head. Removing the head confirmed that exhaust vales were burnt out.

4. Recommendations:

a. replace cylinder head GBP 2616

b. rebuild and relap GBP 3023

Thanks for all inputs so far

You could always get a second hand cylinder head from a dismantler, get it reconditioned and fitted to your car, much cheaper I would have thought if the other avenues come to nothing.

Ian

Edited 18 January, 2011 by countryboy