Hey all,

Usually as a matter of course, and as advised by most people I know with turbocharges cars, I usually let my VRS sit on idle for a minute or two after a heavy boost drive to allow oil to flow round and cool the the turbo.

However, upon reading http://www.volkspage...ssp/SSP_359.pdf (thanks Janner for the link), I stumbled across this bit of information:

"The turbocharger has been incorporated in the cooling system to protect the shaft bearings from high temperatures. A circulating pump ensures that the turbocharger does not overheat for up to 15 minutes after the engine has been turned off. This prevents steam bubbles forming in the cooling system. The shaft bearings are connected to the oil system for lubrication."

Seems I may not need to leave it idling at all. Thoughts?

Edited 10 February, 201115 yr by Stu vRS

My mates Mk1 Audi TT does this, you can hear it whirring away under the bonnet when you switch off (that's assuming its a similar setup)

Edited 10 February, 201115 yr by SimonK24

I thought I heard a pump running with the engine off. I checked my oil level the other day and it is pretty black and horrible though so looks like it might be getting a hard time in the turbo. Just under 4k until first service where I hope it will be changed.

Awesome there's loads of info on that site. Nice find.

That's good to know I normally keep it off boost going into the estate and sit at idle for 30 seconds

Looking at the link i posted, it shows two outputs the highest being 125kW which is about 169Bhp so its not the exact engine, buts its close enough. Id be intrigued to see if theres an updated version for the new TSI(180)

Im keen to know if there any mechanical improvements in the engine such as pistons/rods head bolts etc

I also liked the line which stated the difference between the 2 power outputs as:

"The different output and torque levels are achieved using software. The engine mechanics are the same in both engines."

They charge a lot of money for a glorified remap

I also liked the line which stated the difference between the 2 power outputs as:

"The different output and torque levels are achieved using software. The engine mechanics are the same in both engines."

They charge a lot of money for a glorified remap

but the question is did they REALLY over engineer the earlier lower powered 1.4 TSI internals, or have they uprated the internals on the new 1.4 TSI 180? VAg are pretty infamous for over engineering their engines.

k03 TFSI good for 360Hp on std internals (160hp gain) k04 TFSI good for 400+hp (170hp gain) hopefully this is the same.

but the question is did they REALLY over engineer the earlier lower powered 1.4 TSI internals, or have they uprated the internals on the new 1.4 TSI 180? VAg are pretty infamous for over engineering their engines.

k03 TFSI good for 360Hp on std internals (160hp gain) k04 TFSI good for 400+hp (170hp gain) hopefully this is the same.

Is the VRS 180hp engine a different spec engine to the 2 listed or is it just another remap?

Also a quick question for you guys. It states that the supercharger electronic clutch in a manual gearbox (available on VW cars) is engaged when the clutch is depressed to allow for maximum boost on takeoff.

When I held my left foot on the brake in 'drive' on the DSG box in the VRS, and pressed the throttle, I could hear the supercharger clutch engaging and spooling the supercharger up (did sound very nice btw).

Will this do any damage? I presume not as I think the DSG box does not engage gear clutches until the brake pedal is at least partially released.

If it doesn't do any damage, I suppose it would be a good way of quick launches if required.

Sorry if that sounds long winded.

the TFSI is the 2.0litre found in the golf gti/octavia vRS audi S3 etc. what i was eluding to is they were really undertuned and over engineered as standard

Edited 10 February, 201115 yr by janner_Sy

Thats a great little document that. I'm guessing its talking about the 140 and 170hp variants that found their way into the MK5 Golf, the 140 has been axe; though there is now a 150hp variant that powers some VW's and Seats. The 170 has been de-tuned to 160 for some reason. I guess the 180hp engine is identical mechanically just mapped differently.

Interestingly the 140hp version is fine on 95RON, but the 170 apparently works best with 98 like the 180hp unit. However it only suggests there is a slight impact on low end torque - not power - by using 95 RON. I reckon the 180hp must be affected in exactly the same way so if the document is to be believed HP is actually unaffected - or if it is it would be very negligable.

It makes sense that modern turbocharged cars dont need to be idled, I havent ever seen a modern car with a turbo timer on it. Cars now have mechanisms on them to stop this sort of damage occuring.

alot of power will have been made by advancing the ignition timing on the map. to allow that you need higher grade fuel. if you use lower grade fuel wg=hihc will detonate prematurely then there are knock sensors which sense this and retard timing to compensate id be pretty certain you would lose power

Quote: pipsyp

It makes sense that modern turbocharged cars dont need to be idled, I havent ever seen a modern car with a turbo timer on it. Cars now have mechanisms on them to stop this sort of damage occuring.

Quote:

Most don't actually, so be careful. Some Superchargers require an idle too. Always read the manual. It's usually just the super duper fast models such as the 1.4TSI's and other high output motors that get reduce or no idle to cool. In the book somewhere I bet it says to do a short idle still, perhaps someone can enlighten us for sure. Most of us have cars that must be idled to cool the turbo otherwise you can wave goodbye to maybe the whole engine one lovely day! In my opinion it's probably still best to do an idle even with the 1.4TSI, albeit a short one after a frantic run.

Quote: pipsyp

It makes sense that modern turbocharged cars dont need to be idled, I havent ever seen a modern car with a turbo timer on it. Cars now have mechanisms on them to stop this sort of damage occuring.

Like Estate Man said, you don't need to do this anymore and it's been like that for a few years as car tech has improved. Old'uns who were doing it for 4-5 years with their old turbo car will likely keep doing it out of practice though.....and tell us to do it as well :wonder:

Like Estate Man said, you don't need to do this anymore and it's been like that for a few years as car tech has improved. Old'uns who were doing it for 4-5 years with their old turbo car will likely keep doing it out of practice though.....and tell us to do it as well :wonder:

Agree with this entirely, very modern turbocharged cars arent the fragile things they were 10 - 15 years ago, where any element of abuse would have blown the turbo. Got to think about it logically, how many people with a turbo diesel (which in general have bigger turbos and higher levels of boost pressure - its the only way a diesel engine can make big power)sit and idle their cars. I've never done it on any of my diesel cars (several 1.9 CDTi 150 Astras, Golf Bluemotion, Golf GT Sport 140 PD, Golf Mk6 CR 140) and never had a problem with any of them.

If a turbo's gonna go it will go, again its largely luck of the draw how well put together the turbocharger was in the first place.

In any case if the turbo or supercharger popped on my vRS I would be hugely disappointed but I dont think it would unduely bother me given that it will be under manufacturers warranty all the while I own it - at the end of the PCP i'll probably just hand it back. I guess after 3 years I'll have a pretty good idea of how reliable the car is going to be on-going but with all that to go wrong under the bonnet not sure I'd want to be paying for it myself!

alot of power will have been made by advancing the ignition timing on the map. to allow that you need higher grade fuel. if you use lower grade fuel wg=hihc will detonate prematurely then there are knock sensors which sense this and retard timing to compensate id be pretty certain you would lose power

Well that document does say specifically that use of lower octane fuel will reduce low end torque output, makes no mention of actual power loss. That's if the document is to be believed of course but given that it is an offical VW - I assume technican training - document I'd be inclined to believe it.

What it basically means is the car will probably lose some low end flexibility and responsiveness. I'd actually like to see a drag run of two cars, each using different fuels. I bet the difference would be negigable and barely detectable.

I've made this point before but I would put money on the fact that most dealer demos are running on 95 octane fuel, given that its not in their interest to spend more on fuel than they need to in order to run a demo vehicle, all eats out of their bottom line. Most of us that have test driven the vRS would therefore probably have made the decision to buy the car having driven it with 95 RON fuel running through it; cant really have affected the performance that much otherwise people would be underwhelmed and wouldnt buy the cars.

In any case there is such a thing as a bad tank of super; I bet most filling stations at some point have made the mistake of pumping 95RON into the super tanks. Some garages you go to will sell tainted fuel and you can never be entirely sure exactly what you are getting.

pipsyp, I think my earlier post has been misunderstood. I was actually in part disagreeing with you about the need to "not idle a turbo any more". Whilst it is true some cars don't now require it, most do. It's only really the higher performance motors that tend to get the wizardry to make the idle thing unnecessary after a fast run. It's not practical to install this stuff or even needed on lower performance cars, but an idle still is. My PD TDI needs to idle after a fast run. My book tells me this, as does common sense.

The fact you didn't actually get any problems with the cars you have listed in your earlier post is no evidence that idling the engine after a fast run is not required or advised. I speak as a tech who has seen completely destroyed engines of all kinds due to turbo bearing failure. On examining the bearings it is clear owners have not followed the instructions in the manual to ilde the engine after a fast run. Therefore, the oil trapped in the oil ways and turbo bearings overheats and carbonisers in the bearing. This reduces the amount of oil that flows to and around the bearings in use, causing overheating and eventual premature failure. This is a cumulative process taking place over perhaps many thousnads of miles, but it can happen very quickly depending on the car and how it is driven. I've replaced many turbo's during warranty on many makes of cars over the years. It does often takes out the rest of the engine too. But you prolly know all that.

My point is be careful and read your manual from the start. If it says 'idle the engine after a run' idle the engine. You could regret it otherwise. Too many owners take things said of forums as ' gospel' so we need to be very clear, accurate and specific in what we say to each other just in case we mislead anyone. Just saying and no offence meant, really don't want to see anyone with a big bill!

pipsyp, I think my earlier post has been misunderstood. I was actually in part disagreeing with you about the need to "not idle a turbo any more". Whilst it is true some cars don't now require it, most do. It's only really the higher performance motors that tend to get the wizardry to make the idle thing unnecessary after a fast run. It's not practical to install this stuff or even needed on lower performance cars, but an idle still is. My PD TDI needs to idle after a fast run. My book tells me this, as does common sense.

The fact you didn't actually get any problems with the cars you have listed in your earlier post is no evidence that idling the engine after a fast run is not required or advised. I speak as a tech who has seen completely destroyed engines of all kinds due to turbo bearing failure. On examining the bearings it is clear owners have not followed the instructions in the manual to ilde the engine after a fast run. Therefore, the oil trapped in the oil ways and turbo bearings overheats and carbonisers in the bearing. This reduces the amount of oil that flows to and around the bearings in use, causing overheating and eventual premature failure. This is a cumulative process taking place over perhaps many thousnads of miles, but it can happen very quickly depending on the car and how it is driven. I've replaced many turbo's during warranty on many makes of cars over the years. It does often takes out the rest of the engine too. But you prolly know all that.

My point is be careful and read your manual from the start. If it says 'idle the engine after a run' idle the engine. You could regret it otherwise. Too many owners take things said of forums as ' gospel' so we need to be very clear, accurate and specific in what we say to each other just in case we mislead anyone. Just saying and no offence meant, really don't want to see anyone with a big bill!

Fair point Estateman, most of my cars have been brand new and to be fair I havent kept them very long. However I've never ever been made aware of having to do this with a turbo diesel and I dont know anyone that does.

Interesting thread. I may have this completely wrong but does the 1.4 TDI engine have any sort of shut down turbo protection ? I ask because after a good long run I switch of the engine but can still hear a faint buzzing noise. I never really looked in to it. Its very quiet and easy to miss. I did wonder if it was the turbo slowly running down.

Sorry to hijack a vrs posting for a wee little Greenline

Is the VRS 180hp engine a different spec engine to the 2 listed or is it just another remap?

Also a quick question for you guys. It states that the supercharger electronic clutch in a manual gearbox (available on VW cars) is engaged when the clutch is depressed to allow for maximum boost on takeoff.

When I held my left foot on the brake in 'drive' on the DSG box in the VRS, and pressed the throttle, I could hear the supercharger clutch engaging and spooling the supercharger up (did sound very nice btw).

Will this do any damage? I presume not as I think the DSG box does not engage gear clutches until the brake pedal is at least partially released.

If it doesn't do any damage, I suppose it would be a good way of quick launches if required.

Sorry if that sounds long winded.

I've got my own question i'd like to throw in if I can regarding DSG..

I read this post with interest from Honest John discussing DSG (topic was Easy DSG);

'With a conventional automatic if the car has a good (and convenient) parking brake you can choose to leave it in D and hold it on the parking brake. Or, more wisely, if you are stopped for more than a matter of seconds, put it into N and hold it on the parking brake. Do not simply stand on the footbrake whether in D or in N and blind the driver behind. (Especially if you are driving a Mercedes CLC that has a huge third brake light.) A DSG doesn't have a torque converter that can withstand churning against itself while the car is braked in D. Instead it has two 'wet' oil clutches, one for each shaft of the transmission. So wear on these clutches is more likely to be promoted while braked in D than with a torque converter automatic.'

My mechanical expertise is pretty much limited to checking tire pressures, but this did interest me as my local dealer said he mostly doesn't use neutral and just uses the foot brake during normal driving. This post was from 30/01/2010 is the vRS DSG modified from this or still a concern?

I've got my own question i'd like to throw in if I can regarding DSG..

I read this post with interest from Honest John discussing DSG (topic was Easy DSG);

'With a conventional automatic if the car has a good (and convenient) parking brake you can choose to leave it in D and hold it on the parking brake. Or, more wisely, if you are stopped for more than a matter of seconds, put it into N and hold it on the parking brake. Do not simply stand on the footbrake whether in D or in N and blind the driver behind. (Especially if you are driving a Mercedes CLC that has a huge third brake light.) A DSG doesn't have a torque converter that can withstand churning against itself while the car is braked in D. Instead it has two 'wet' oil clutches, one for each shaft of the transmission. So wear on these clutches is more likely to be promoted while braked in D than with a torque converter automatic.'

My mechanical expertise is pretty much limited to checking tire pressures, but this did interest me as my local dealer said he mostly doesn't use neutral and just uses the foot brake during normal driving. This post was from 30/01/2010 is the vRS DSG modified from this or still a concern?

after doing some learner teaching in my DSG, the worst thing you can do is have it in drive with the handbrake on and NO footbrake, this is burning the clutch, as with the footbrake released the car tries to engage the clutch and move..

follow this. IF you are sitting with the handbrake on, and the footbrake off, put it in neutral!

however, with the footbrake on, it doesn't try to engage the clutch, so no wear, no problem, sitting in D with the footbrake on is fine, so is sitting with footbrake and handbrake, but if you are going to release the footbrake with the handbrake on, put it in neutral

Have to second this made this mistake today and worryingly enough the VRS pulled away all be it rather slugishly in the 10-20s or so as I figured out what was going on.

All of this 'letting the turbo cool down' stuff was born in the 80's when you had Sierra Cosworths and Nissan Sunny's with large and basic turbos bolted on.

I very much doubt it's needed now.

Even if it is, surely the only place you'll actually need to sit and idle would be the pit-lane if you had been on a track.

You'd have to be very irresponsible to be ragging it right up to the moment you turn into you're drive. Most people will have a minimum of 3 or 4 minutes of sedate 30mph limits between the last place they can 'give it beans' and their front door. This would be plenty to let a hot turbo cool.

I've driven about 150k miles in 3 different turbo cars in the last 8 years, never let any of them idle 'to cool down' and I've never had any turbo related problems.

Interesting thread. I may have this completely wrong but does the 1.4 TDI engine have any sort of shut down turbo protection ? I ask because after a good long run I switch of the engine but can still hear a faint buzzing noise. I never really looked in to it. Its very quiet and easy to miss. I did wonder if it was the turbo slowly running down.

Sorry to hijack a vrs posting for a wee little Greenline

It's the engine cooling fan on it's low setting to prevent heat surge. We don't have a turbo cooling device such as fitted to the VRs.

All of this 'letting the turbo cool down' stuff was born in the 80's when you had Sierra Cosworths and Nissan Sunny's with large and basic turbos bolted on.

I very much doubt it's needed now.

Even if it is, surely the only place you'll actually need to sit and idle would be the pit-lane if you had been on a track.

You'd have to be very irresponsible to be ragging it right up to the moment you turn into you're drive. Most people will have a minimum of 3 or 4 minutes of sedate 30mph limits between the last place they can 'give it beans' and their front door. This would be plenty to let a hot turbo cool.

I've driven about 150k miles in 3 different turbo cars in the last 8 years, never let any of them idle 'to cool down' and I've never had any turbo related problems.

Hi Steve, you make an interesting point about most of us having a slow drive to our homes or work place at the end maybe of a fast drive. This as you suggest does cool the turbo. No problem. The advise to idle the engine after a fast run is less important now than it used to be, but it is stil advised in many car manuals if you check. Particularly on petrol engines with a turbo. They run substantially hotter than a diesel turbo, with the oil reaching massive temps compared to the diesel engines. The idle advise is mainly referring to cars that have been high speed cruising on a motorway for long periods and that might, for example, stop at a service area where there is no 'slow drive' before switch off. Under those circumstances if you REGULARLY failed to idle, you would 'fry' some oil into carbon in the bearing chambers and pipes leading to reduced oil flow over time. It's not something that suddenly just happens and the turbo goes bang. It's a cumulative effect that can be avoided if everyone reads their manual...but sadly most people just don't read their manuals.