YETI - Smart Alternator?

[Navcomic]

Hi

 

I have a 2011 TSI model 1.4.

Does anyone know if this is fitted with a 'smart' alternator? I ask because I am contemplating fitting a C-TEK D-250s intelligent charging unit to feed a large leisure battery in the rear. If the Alternator is 'smart', I will have to re-organise the feed to the C-TEK unit via a relay activated from the ignition switch.

If anyone does know, I would be grateful for a reply. Thanks

[Llanigraham]

Was the car bought with tow bar prep?

I suspect it is more something in the ECU than the alternator.

[Navcomic]

Hi. Thank you for your reply.

A tow bar was added after I bought the car second hand.

What I was thinking about is the 'smart' alternator arrangement that is fitted to the 'greenline' version of the Yeti where the alternator is switched out and the the battery takes over the complete load under certain conditions (hence the voltage across the battery falls and the C-TEK unit may think the engine has been turned off. I understand this 'smart' alternator arrangement is to make the car more energy efficient (as a 'Greenline' is supposed to be....). I also understand that something sometimes called a battery management unit is involved.  My car is not a greenline.

[Llanigraham]

Who fitted the tow bar and what electrical loom did they use?

Did you have 2 x 7pin or 13 pin electrics fitted?

Did you have the car re-coded after the tow bar and electrics were fitted?

 

Sorry for the questions but the replies could affect the answer.

 

My car is a 10 plate, and the battery charging and fridge circuits are operative in the 13 pin socket. As I understand it, if the proper Skoda full loom is fitted, and the correct fuses are fitted, then the battery charging/fridge power is sensed through the ECU and not the alternator, very much the same as a standard split charge relay.

 

EDIT

Looking at the spec of that charger, I suspect that if your car has been wired up with the correct Skoda towing electrics loom, and the car has been reprogrammed correctly then it will not be needed.

And from experience, auxiliary battery charging in the car is not that effective as the power provided is very low.  

Edited 6 March, 2016 by Llanigraham

[Navcomic]

Hi

I should clarify. 

This auxiliary battery is not being used with tow bar electrics but will be in the back of the car being charged via this c-tek device and this second battery will be used to power a current-hungry HF transceiver which is used when the car is stationary. This auxiliary battery arrangement will stop me being stuck in the middle of nowhere due to a flat main car battery. The c-tek device in the back is presently fed via a fused (at the main battery) feed and the auxiliary battery is then fed from the c-tek device via another fuse (at upto 20A). The 'consumers' (to use c-tek parlance) are then connected via fused feeds to the auxiliary battery (I am not using a 'smartpass'). Of course, there are the usual single point earthing arrangements to the chassis.

The possible problem is that the c-tek turns itself on and off completely by sensing the voltage on the feed from the alternator: if this voltage falls too low, the c-tek device thinks the car engine is off and so turns itself off too. With a smart alternator, as I understand it, this 'off' condition from the alternator can arise whilst the vehicle is running along normally due to the energy saving arrangement turning the alternator off - which defeats the point of the c-tek device as it is trying to both manage the auxiliary battery and charge this second battery whilst the engine is running. 

[countryboy]

Could you not charge the leisure battery through the 12V socket in the boot via a relay controlled by battery voltage so if it drops below say 13 volts the relay will turn off and isolate the leisure battery from the main car electrics so as not to drain the main battery when the engine is turned off?

 

Reading one of your posts more I see you have towbar electrics fitted so what I have just said more or less mirrors what happens in the split charging circuit. That being the case, could you take a feed off that split charging circuit to top up your leisure battery in the boot? The dodgy bit about that being the release of hydrogen from the battery into the interior of the car when it is in the charging phase.

Ian

Edited 6 March, 2016 by countryboy

[Llanigraham]

Hi

I should clarify. 

This auxiliary battery is not being used with tow bar electrics but will be in the back of the car being charged via this c-tek device and this second battery will be used to power a current-hungry HF transceiver which is used when the car is stationary. This auxiliary battery arrangement will stop me being stuck in the middle of nowhere due to a flat main car battery. The c-tek device in the back is presently fed via a fused (at the main battery) feed and the auxiliary battery is then fed from the c-tek device via another fuse (at upto 20A). The 'consumers' (to use c-tek parlance) are then connected via fused feeds to the auxiliary battery (I am not using a 'smartpass'). Of course, there are the usual single point earthing arrangements to the chassis.

The possible problem is that the c-tek turns itself on and off completely by sensing the voltage on the feed from the alternator: if this voltage falls too low, the c-tek device thinks the car engine is off and so turns itself off too. With a smart alternator, as I understand it, this 'off' condition from the alternator can arise whilst the vehicle is running along normally due to the energy saving arrangement turning the alternator off - which defeats the point of the c-tek device as it is trying to both manage the auxiliary battery and charge this second battery whilst the engine is running. 

 

I've spent most of today sat high above a very snowy Sweet Lamb running an 81mkz rally safety radio off the standard car battery with no problems. My voltmeter showed that at the end of the day I had a voltage of 12.1v from ma starting voltage of 12.3v. From experience the car will still restart with a voltage of 11.5v.

 

As i said I am not sure your C-Tek device is needed, but to answer that accurately could you answer the questions I asked in post 4.

[Breezy_Pete]

Couldn't you just wire up a multimeter to a lighter socket plug and watch (better, get a passenger to watch) the voltage as you drive along? Any time the alternator isn't charging the battery the voltage will dip very noticeably.

[Navcomic]

Hi All

 

1. watching the voltage value: a very good idea.

2. A 88Mhz PMR rally safety radio is not quite the same as my HF transceiver as I doubt your rally radio takes aprox 22A on transmit (for the initiated - Yaesu FT857) when running at full power...? This is why I need a second battery as I cannot afford the risk of the main battery running flat (and a AGM battery has a deeper discharge % tolerance than a normal wet acid too). Apologies I did not make that clear.

3. Relay in the boot: no unfortunately not. The second battery needs to be charged carefully and the C-Tek is designed to look after the second battery as this is a AGM battery and needs protection against over charging.

4. gas into the car: not a problem. The secondary battery is an AGM battery certified for use inside a motor home which was one of the drivers to using a AGM battery. It obviously needs ventilation but dangerous gas is not a problem. My towbar electrics are 12N for a trailer only. 

 

I think I will leave it there. Many Thanks for all your help and I think I will go back to basics and ask my wife to just check the output to see if it cuts out.

[Llanigraham]

Rally Safety radios are NOT 88 mhz PMR radios, but operate on 81.575 mhz and 81.5375 mhz,  As a radio ham operator you should know that. There are several Rally Radio operators who are Yeti owners.

 

Since you only have the 12N socket fitted you probably do not have the battery and fridge circuitry fitted, but looking at the technical details of my own similar aged car I do not think that it has an "intelligent" alternator fitted. The charging criteria is sensed by the ECU, just as it also shuts down certain circuits when the battery is low. I suspect from your comments that your C-Tek is not designed to work with such as system.

 

And I'm afraid even an AGM battery produces hydrogen when it is being charged.

[Austin 7]

Hi Navcomic.  I have a 1.4 TSi from 2012.  I'm pretty sure it doesn't have an "intelligent" charging setup.  Here's an idea to confirm it.  Buy one of those cheap digital voltmeters from ebay which plug straight into the cigar lighter socket, and as Wino suggests get your passenger to keep an eye on it while you drive around.  I wouldn't mind betting that they will see a pretty steady reading of something like 14.0 to 14.5 volts the whole time the engine is running.

 

If that's the case then go ahead and use your C-tek system.  I'd suggest a reasonably heavy gauge cable running front to rear, connected close to the car battery positive, with a suitable fuse at the car battery end.  A "red key" type isolating switch wouldn't be a bad idea either. The C-tek unit can go at the auxiliary battery end. The car "chassis" (body) can serve as the negative return.

 

My motorhome has a 100 Ah auxiliary battery mounted under the driver's seat, this seems to be standard practice with no worries about gas assuming its not overcharged.

 

I assume you are planning HF static mobile, so good luck.  Height is everything if you want an efficient antenna on the lower bands, and a capacity hat will help !

[Navcomic]

Hi Austin 7

Many thanks for your note. From what you say, that would seem to confirm the situation. As the car is not fitted with the other 'greenline'-type gizmos to make it more efficient, your theory would tend to confirm my thoughts - but I will check even so.

Yes: I have fitted mega-current cable everywhere (connected right on the front battery post) and also paid close attention to the earthing due to operation on HF and there being a ATAS screwdriver (40m and up) on the roof rail - which works very well. It is grounded via the tailgate hinge mounting bolts. Fusing and layout is already as you suggested and in accordance with the c-tek docs - but it is always nice to get one's ideas confirmed by someone else! The battery is in the 'boot' with the C-tek underneath the 'floor' on the left (with the duplexer) but I will be keeping an eye on the case temperature of the c-tek unit.

The idea is, indeed, HF mobile. I am registered with WAB and did a bit around christmas QRP in north yorks  with the ubiquitous 817 but I realised I needed more power hence the installation of the 857. Operation on 80m would be nice and I am looking into that using my original HF antenna. You are right about height given the low angles involved but, of course, these antennas are not much good for NVI work.

Thank you again. Very useful.   

[Ryeman]

May I ask who uses HF other than aircraft in remote locations?.

Emergency services ?.

Ham radio operators?.

Just curious.

[Breezy_Pete]

Dogging?

[Llanigraham]

May I ask who uses HF other than aircraft in remote locations?.

Emergency services ?.

Ham radio operators?.

Just curious.

 

Ham radio

[Ryeman]

I've heard of fixed (base station) but portable?.

Is that common?.

[Llanigraham]

I'm currently doing the Foundation Level course, so couldn't use that amount of power, but talking to others, it doesn't seem to be that common to do what the OP is doing mobile. Most people at that level seem to base them selves with a static transmitter and aerial set-up at home.

Each to their own!

[x19]

Apologies in advance for going a bit off-topic, but in light of all the talk about R/T sets, I was wondering what happened to CB's in pmc's.

In the 80's there were a lot about even though they were illegal. Given the outlandish aerials they used, they were easy to spot and prosecute under the C&E Management Act 1979 (I can't remember the section we used).

Since being legalised you hardly hear or see anything of them, although I believe they are used in HGV's.

[Ryeman]

Hahahahahahaha

I remember the CB mania of the eighties (I think) with, it seemed, dozens of magazines jumping on the bandwagon.

It's the truckies and emergency services coms system out here now, particularly logging trucks and the more extreme remote area 4WD operators, particularly in the deserts.

[Urrell]

I was wondering what happened to CB's in pmc's.

 

Excuse my ignorance but what is "pmc's"?

I do have CB fitted to my motorcycle as standard but have never used it.

[Llanigraham]

Apologies in advance for going a bit off-topic, but in light of all the talk about R/T sets, I was wondering what happened to CB's in pmc's.

In the 80's there were a lot about even though they were illegal. Given the outlandish aerials they used, they were easy to spot and prosecute under the C&E Management Act 1979 (I can't remember the section we used).

Since being legalised you hardly hear or see anything of them, although I believe they are used in HGV's.

 

Still in use, but not as much.

Some truckers are still active, it's used by some 4x4 groups when they are out greenlaning, and a few farmers around here still use it to keep in touch with home, etc.

[x19]

Excuse my ignorance but what is "pmc's"?

I do have CB fitted to my motorcycle as standard but have never used it.

Private motor cars.

[Navcomic]

Hi Off topic, I know, but it has come up here.

 

Please see 

 

http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/332154-ham-radio/?hl=%2Bemc#entry4475229 entry #5 (I think) from me about the potential risks of using mobile two-way radios in a Yeti, aside from the usual aspects under UK law.  

[Navcomic]

Austin 7 -   

Thank you for the prompt about my typing error but, as one who has been licensed for 43 years, I think I know the usual limits of the Broadcast FM band in the UK at least, thanks. The lesson for me is to review more closely before posting.

Radio Amateurs are not strictly required to know spot frequency allocations or band limits outside their own bands - just an appreciation that there are other users in the spectrum and the precautions needed to prevent interference to them - besides knowing their own amateur band frequency limits and which parts of that band may be 'shared' or have some geographical operating limits for parts of the band within the UK. In the same way, it would be unreasonable to expect you to know our amateur allocations (you may well do so which is great). Over the years, one does get to know other allocations and spot frequencies outside our bands but, I must admit on this occasion, I did not know yours probably because I do not operate on 4m and have no requirement to be involved with low band equipment. It was just a mistake by me from reading your answer too quickly. :sun:

Just to further confirm: you are correct. I do have the 12N socket as I am only towing a basic trailer and so, as a result, do not have the fridge and other feeds. As for the Hydrogen question: again, I agree. However, provided the battery is not overcharged (and the C-tek prevents that happening), the level of hydrogen given off is way way below the dangerous level. If having an AGM was thought to be unsafe inside a vehicle due to the gas question, then the use and sale of AGM batteries for use inside motorhomes, and especially under the driver's seat as has been mentioned by another respondent, would be not allowed for obvious reasons. It is appreciated that ventilation is still required, however. 

I hope that provides some sort of clarification of my earlier answer.