DSG DQ250 making noise and slipping

[aj0007]

Have 2006 Octavia 2.0 tdi BKD engine.

 

Just last week Tuesday drove to work fine, however on my way back the car began to shudder when in drive and it changed up from 1st to 2nd. 2nd to 3rd was fine and a slight slip from 3rd to 4th. Every other gear change up was fine and downshifts fine.

 

Called Skoda dealer who recommended an oil/ filter changed to start with but could not give me a Saturday appointment. Taken to Central Audi and VW. They changed the oil and now have a whirring noise constantly when in drive and foot on the brake. Gear changes slip and shudder before gear is engaged. When in gear no issues even when accelerating hard. Downshifts no problem.

 

Anyone got any ideas or suggestions. Taken to one specialist called Volksworks who stated easiest option to change gearbox. And this ain’t cheap.

 

thanks in advance

[aj0007]

Was thinking of trying to find someone with a vcds to try and do a dsg reset/ adaptation as I have read on other forums through random googling that this may solve the issue. Also I have kept up to date with the 40,000 mile oil services all done initially by Skoda and then by VW independent specialists.

[marfrohun]

Get it diagnosed now.. Went through just about the same thing with my 1.6 Tdi 7 speed. The car had quite high k's for the 2011 model year (203,000) and just had cam belt and everything serviced including the DSG, and it kept shuddering every so often. DSG reset helped a little but not much. About a month ago it blew up on me on the high way, mechatronics necked itself and roasted the absolute hell out of the clutches. Long story short, it's getting a new mecha, and clutches.. $5000 later.. 

 

My point is, get it diagnosed or even take it back to the garage that did the service for you. Worth paying a few hundred in diagnostics than thousands in repairs.

 

Good luck!

[aj0007]

17 hours ago, marfrohun said:

Get it diagnosed now.. Went through just about the same thing with my 1.6 Tdi 7 speed. The car had quite high k's for the 2011 model year (203,000) and just had cam belt and everything serviced including the DSG, and it kept shuddering every so often. DSG reset helped a little but not much. About a month ago it blew up on me on the high way, mechatronics necked itself and roasted the absolute hell out of the clutches. Long story short, it's getting a new mecha, and clutches.. $5000 later.. 

 

My point is, get it diagnosed or even take it back to the garage that did the service for you. Worth paying a few hundred in diagnostics than thousands in repairs.

 

Good luck!

Had it diagnosed by the VW specialist garage who did the gearbox oil change and their response was that nothing was showing on the diagnostics and the only way to find the problem was by stripping down the gearbox. They said this could mean a simple fix or a more costly refurb. Was hoping for a less costly option.

[john999boy]

Combined your similar posts to this one thread to keep everything relevant.

[silver1011]

Gearboxes are complicated things, especially the DSG. It doesn't really get much more complex.

 

You've ticked off the low cost / obvious checks i.e. the fluid change / reset.

 

Unfortunately it's now make or break time.

 

Either sell / part exchange the car as is, or take a gamble and have the box opened up and properly diagnosed. Could be a simple and cheap fix, but let's be honest, it rarely is.

 

Would a second-hand or refurbed gearbox make economic sense, what's the rest of the car like?

[Black_Thunder]

On ‎05‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 18:27, aj0007 said:

Have 2006 Octavia 2.0 tdi BKD engine.

 

Just last week Tuesday drove to work fine, however on my way back the car began to shudder when in drive and it changed up from 1st to 2nd. 2nd to 3rd was fine and a slight slip from 3rd to 4th. Every other gear change up was fine and downshifts fine.

 

Called Skoda dealer who recommended an oil/ filter changed to start with but could not give me a Saturday appointment. Taken to Central Audi and VW. They changed the oil and now have a whirring noise constantly when in drive and foot on the brake. Gear changes slip and shudder before gear is engaged. When in gear no issues even when accelerating hard. Downshifts no problem.

 

Anyone got any ideas or suggestions. Taken to one specialist called Volksworks who stated easiest option to change gearbox. And this ain’t cheap.

 

thanks in advance

Has the engine and / or DSG been remapped?  If so, see if you can get the OEM software installed.

 

I have highlighted the crucial observation from your original post.  That simply and categorically confirms that it is just one 'circuit' of your DSG which has an issue (in case you are not aware, the DSG is effectively TWO manual gearboxes, AND two wet multi-plate clutches contained in one transmission housing).  The fact that you are complaining of "shuddering" would strongly indicate a clutch issue - one of the clutches is playing up.  This could be for a variety of reasons, some are a simple fix, others are a relatively major job.  I shall list the causes and remedies.

 

1. Poor transmission oil quality and/or contaminated oil.  Make sure the DSG oil and filter are changed at least every 40k miles.  Use ONLY genuine oil and filter from VW Group.  If the oil and filter have been very recently changed, allow at least 500 miles (ideally 1000 miles) for the new fluid to 'clean' the clutch linings.
2. Incorrect oil level, ie, too low or too high oil level.  Make sure the oil level is correctly measured and rectified at exactly 35deg C oil temperature, using the official VW Group specialist workshop tool, and live diagnostics.
3. Incorrect clutch adjustment.  Clutches do wear, and the 6-speed DSG clutches DO need to be occasionally adapted.  This means carrying out a very specific driving 'programme' following a 'reset' of the DSG mechatronics module whilst being hooked up to VCDS (or the official factory hand-held diagnostics).  This is best carried out late at night (because you need to drive at fixed revs in specific gears, and can take about 20-30 minutes).
4. Clutch excessively worn beyond acceptable tolerances.  Remedy is to replace the clutch pack assembly.  Obviously, the complete DSG gearbox will need to be separated from the engine and removed from the car, and the transmission fluid draining, before being able to access the clutch packs.  It is clearly a 'major' job to the uninitiated, and not something for an average 'home mechanic'.  However, for an experienced VW Group professional mechanic / technician (be that an official VW Group stealer, or an independent specialist), this is a relatively common procedure.  Crucially though, the actual DSG 'gearbox' will NOT need to be opened up and tinkered with!

Those who are suggesting that your DSG gearbox needs total replacement, or who suggest a total strip-down of your gearbox (especially as a first or only option) are clearly not competent with nor experienced in the intricacies of the DSG, or dual clutch transmissions in general.

 

HTH. 

[aj0007]

The vehicle is standard with zero modifications. The oil changes have been carried out within 40,000mile intervals by Audi/ VW specialists. The vehicle predominantly is driven in town to work and back.

 

As far as I know I have not had any recalibration/ adaptation done during my ownership of 10 years. I do not have access to a vcds but have read on this forum that it is required to do a recalibration. Wondering if there is anybody local to Birmingham?

[Black_Thunder]

Do you know if the oil & filter changes were done according to the proper procedure - specifically setting the correct level at 35 deg C?  I ask because there are a shocking number of people who fail to comply with this.  Many (including some official dealers) simply drain the old fluid, and then measure the volume of drained fluid, and replace with the same volume - which can lead to incorrect levels.

 

Sadly, I am too far from Birmingham to help with VCDS.  Is there a specific section on this forum for VCDS?  Post a request for help there.

 

Some light bedtime reading can be found on the Ross-Tech wiki - http://wiki.Ross-Tech.com/wiki/index.php/6-Speed_Direct_Shift_Gearbox_(DSG/02E)  :P

 

Keep us updated.

[Black_Thunder]

On ‎07‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 00:21, marfrohun said:

Get it diagnosed now.. Went through just about the same thing with my 1.6 Tdi 7 speed. The car had quite high k's for the 2011 model year (203,000) and just had cam belt and everything serviced including the DSG, and it kept shuddering every so often. DSG reset helped a little but not much. About a month ago it blew up on me on the high way, mechatronics necked itself and roasted the absolute hell out of the clutches. Long story short, it's getting a new mecha, and clutches.. $5000 later.. 

 

Can you please clarify?  The 7-speed DSG is effectively sealed for life - it is impossible to change the transmission fluid on a transverse 7-speed DSG, so what exactly was 'serviced' on your DSG?

[aj0007]

It is the 6 speed dq250 which is the wet clutch. I cannot be 100% certain that the oil level is absolutely correct as I sit in the waiting room and am not permitted into the garage section due to their health and safety. According to them they did confirm that they have to check level at 35 degrees so believe they have done it correctly. Further according to invoice it does state filter and 5 litres of oil.

[aj0007]

I have posted in the diagnostics and vcds section to locate someone in and around the Birmingham area. Waiting for a response.

 

your help is appreciated.

[Black_Thunder]

53 minutes ago, aj0007 said:

It is the 6 speed dq250 which is the wet clutch. I cannot be 100% certain that the oil level is absolutely correct as I sit in the waiting room and am not permitted into the garage section due to their health and safety. According to them they did confirm that they have to check level at 35 degrees so believe they have done it correctly. Further according to invoice it does state filter and 5 litres of oil.

Yes, the DQ250 is the wet clutch version, and is identified by the official VW part number prefix 02E.  It will also be identified by a three letter code - as an example, a 2007 Mk5 Golf GTI DSG is HXW.  The ID code will be found somewhere on the actual transmission housing, and also on the 'data sticker' for the car (one found inside the front cover of your service book, the other stuck on the floor pan underneath the boot carpet).

 

If they only charged you for 5 litres of oil, that is slightly worrying, because every 6-speed 02E DSG I have worked on have always used nigh-on 5.5 litres - so they either underfilled it by maybe half a litre, or filled it correctly but slightly under charged you!  For info, the full parts list for a DSG fluid change is:

1. G 052 182 A2 - gear oil, £13.67 per litre (normally six required)
2. 02E 305 051 C - oil filter, £17.79
3. N 910 845 01 - O-ring, oil filter, £3.82
4. N 043 809 2 - washer, DSG drain plug, £0.79

[aj0007]

I will dig out the receipt and confirm

[aj0007]

Receipt attached. It is 6L.

[Ootohere]

@marfrohun   OT from the OP's thread so sorry.  ( Lots of DQ200 7 speed Twin Dry clutch threads on this forum in many sections.)

 

In 2012 in New Zealand the 'Service Campaign' which was part of the World Wide Recall which excluded Europe,

this had all registered keepers of Skoda cars with DQ200 DSG's in New Zealand get a letter recalling the car. Or was supposed to.

In New Zealand seeing as that was only hundreds of cars all got a new Mechatronic Control Unit and a software update as well as Mineral oil used.

 

Was your car not done in 2012 or since. Anyways i take it Skoda NZ are still paying for your work.

Did they not put a 10 year / 100,000 mile Warranty Extension on as in other World Regions, excluding  Europe?

Edited 10 March, 2019 by Skoffski

[marfrohun]

4 hours ago, Skoffski said:

@marfrohun   OT from the OP's thread so sorry.  ( Lots of DQ200 7 speed Twin Dry clutch threads on this forum in many sections.)

 

In 2012 in New Zealand the 'Service Campaign' which was part of the World Wide Recall which excluded Europe,

this had all registered keepers of Skoda cars with DQ200 DSG's in New Zealand get a letter recalling the car. Or was supposed to.

In New Zealand seeing as that was only hundreds of cars all got a new Mechatronic Control Unit and a software update as well as Mineral oil used.

 

Was your car not done in 2012 or since. Anyways i take it Skoda NZ are still paying for your work.

Did they not put a 10 year / 100,000 mile Warranty Extension on as in other World Regions, excluding  Europe?

 

Hi Skoffski,

 

Thanks for the insight! I only bought the car in mid 2017 as an ex government car (dodgy, but it was incredibly cheap). Unfortunately due to this I didn't get any service history. I did however get a recall letter in the mail when I bought it, but that was for the emissions update. However, Skoda did pay for my EGR valve replacement in full soon after the update so I'm not too sure.

 

 

[Ootohere]

@marfrohunCheck with a VIN checker, Skoda or Government if there is one in New Zealand.

Or just Email Skoda.

 

Sadly the link i used to post with the Service Campaign Information in NZ changed a year or more back.

This was it. But now as you will see changed.

http://skoda.co.nz/news/dsg-service-campaign

 

EDIT.

Good, changed again since i last looked at it and a 'Recall Action' checker at the bottom..

 

Edited 10 March, 2019 by Skoffski

[marfrohun]

38 minutes ago, Skoffski said:

@marfrohunCheck with a VIN checker, Skoda or Government if there is one in New Zealand.

Or just Email Skoda.

 

Sadly the link i used to post with the Service Campaign Information in NZ changed a year or more back.

This was it. But now as you will see changed.

http://skoda.co.nz/news/dsg-service-campaign

 

EDIT.

Good, changed again since i last looked at it and a 'Recall Action' checker at the bottom..

 

 

Just had a look, got the following result after the VIN test: 

Quote

A software update on the Service Campaign Diesel EA189 has been performed on this VIN by a ŠKODA Authorised Dealer.

 

This, however, only seems to be for the software update. I might give Skoda a ring up from Tauranga Skoda where it would've been serviced most of its life to see if they can email me a bit of the old paperwork :P 

[Black_Thunder]

19 hours ago, aj0007 said:

Receipt attached. It is 6L.

OK, it is reassuring to see 6 litres of oil, and the associated filter, seal and washer.  That is the good part!

 

Here is the bad part(s). 

1. They failed to add the part numbers to the invoice.  That is an official requirement - part numbers are needed to verify continuity of whether official genuine parts have been used or not.  The lack of part numbers will invalidate any warranty (official VW or independent), and even if there is no active warranty, it is still 'good and accepted practice' to always include them.  Part numbers are also required to ensure compliance with 'Trusted Trader' type schemes, and also stipulated under Codes of Conduct from both the Retail Motor Industry (RMI) and the Motor Ombudsman scheme.
2. I am truly shocked to see their comment that "faults may be more apparent after a gearbox oil change".  That smacks of a total lack of professional competence on their behalf.  A routine gearbox oil change (when using genuine fluid) should never make faults worse!  If you pre-advised them of specific problems, they should drain the old oil into a clear container and then visually inspect it for debris (bits of clutch linings, broken or chipped gear teeth and/or selector forks, and excessive brass/copper type particles from worn synchro rings), and also inspect the old filter for similar debris - and report any findings to the vehicle owner.
3. Shocked at the total lack of suggestion of official VAS or VCDS adapted drive procedure.
4. Again gobsmacked they then suggested the next action to be a total gearbox strip-down!  This also shows a total lack of competency and basic knowledge of DSG dual clutch gearboxes.  Total strip down of DSGs are incredibly rare - indeed, the most common reasons to open them are to upgrade the differential to a full limited-slip diff from the likes of Quaife, or to replace shaft bearings.  Depending upon reported faults, the first option for 'major surgery' (and then only AFTER fluid and filter change, AND after a DSG adaption drive) will be either clutch pack replacement or mechatronics module replacement.

I would respectfully suggest searching for a specialist who has regular experience of DSG boxes, as it would seem that Central are out of their depth with DSG.  Apologies to be the bearer of bad news.

[pastiche]

I have posted before about my 55 reg dsg 140bhp  Elegance

. Had done 55k when the box went like yours. It had been serviced by Skoda since new and all on time.Skoda dealer had it in for over a week and could not identify what was wrong, even Skoda uk they said did not know. They reckond the box would be around £3500 to do.Sold it back to them got present one. Went on that website about MOT and found out our old car had done another 35 k more since selling it, wonder what they done .

[aj0007]

I’m wondering too.

[aj0007]

I’m going to get the vcds and try the recalibration. Guessing it’s worth a shot. If that don’t work the. Perhaps it’s time to give up on it.

[cjb]

I've just done the basic settings for aj0007, and I'd make the following observations:

 

1) No stored fault codes for the DSG box.

2) The unpleasant noises he's noticed are also evident during the group 0061 basic settings. (http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/6-Speed_Direct_Shift_Gearbox_(DSG/02E), 

3) I've done basic settings on the Leon I had a few years sgo, and as anyone that's done it will know, a few clunks and clicks at things engage is normal, but this was more of a grinding.

4) To me the sounds are very similar to the noise you'd get when a worn-out manual clutch starts to slip- a metal-on-metal grinding.

5) The other problems feel to me like the relevant clutch is struggling to engage and then suddenly does so- a bit of a slip, then a clunk as it engages.

6) It seems to affect both clutch/gear chains since the oil change.

7) The car still drives the same and the noises are the same afterwards.

 

So based on this I'd be unsure of the problem. It kind of feels like a clutch issue, but it doesn't slip once the clutch actually engages.

 

I've suggested he gives Midland VW a call. I don't know how well they know DSG internals, but they're trustworthy and honest in my experience.

 

[aj0007]

I’d like to thank cjb for his help on Sunday doing the basic settings. As his advised I will be contacting midland vw for further advise and if possible diagnosis.