How did cars end up with so much tech fitted?

[Westbury63]

Today I read this thread and it got me thinking. How did cars end up with so much tech fitted? Did customers ask for it?

I passed my drivers test in 1989, and remember the days of old school cars with nothing fitted to them at all. Tech fitted such as airbags and ABS are clearly progress. I enjoy my car having an ECU, I no longer need to maintain points and use a manual choke to start my car. All advances that have been positive. But, I think technology has gone too far. Yetiherts lists all the gubbins he has to do to his car at the start of each journey for example! Too much.

 

 

Edited 3 January, 2021 by Westbury63

[Ootohere]

New EU legislation will have the Lane assist  and other stuff as standard on all cars.

 

https://www.ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_19_1793

http://autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/european-union-lists-safety-features-mandate-2021

 

Drivers were not paying attention so safety stuff as required, now so much stuff for safety is there and drivers still do not know how it works and are distracted by it and the Bluetooth, and connectivity / Infotainment etc.

So there is ESP / ESC, ABS / TC / ASR / XDS/ XDS+. Now there are so many warnings and things to alert people and they still hit things and have blind spots as the car is designed.

Drivers were dead dozy, had run flat tyres and never knew there was a puncture / blow out so TPMS were required.

Now many still never check tyre pressures unless there is a warning.

Same with Oil, Coolant, Washer Fluid etc etc.

 

Auto Lights and Auto Wipers and many have no idea what lights are on when or if there are any on to the rear. 

Many have no idea where to put the wiper stalk, or how to chose from the menu what they want, front, rear wipe, angel wipe etc.

Edited 3 January, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[chimaera]

Engine tech has been driven by the need to meet ever stricter emissions rules, and we're well into the diminishing returns space with internal combustion technology.

 

When it comes to safety technology, the lowest common denominator always applies. You design for the least capable driver you can conceive of. Even those of us who consider ourselves capable can be assisted by safety technology. Last summer I came within a few metres of a head-on collision thanks to a muppet who decided to overtake several cars on a bend. The brake assist feature on the Superb definitely contributed to making it a near miss rather than a collision. The technology is well enough designed to stay out of the way unless it's needed. I would say this is true of most driver assistive technologies as they have advanced. Once a piece of technology is available it's only a matter of time before it trickles down from the luxury/sporty end of the market to the average family car, often hastened by regulatory pressure. ABS is a good example of this: it started becoming common on cars during the mid to late 90s, and was eventually mandated by the EU on new cars built from July 2007. DRLs have followed a similar path.

 

Driver comfort features are the sort of thing that trickle into use and reach a point where customers ask for them next time once they have used them. There are several features on my Superb that I never missed on my previous car when I didn't have them, but which I'd be extremely reluctant to go without now.

 

Another thing that tends to happen is that technology platforms introduced for one purpose inevitably get expanded as engineers think up new ways to use the technology that's available. A lot of vehicle systems switched from direct wiring and switches/relays to using ECUs to control them because it reduced the amount of wiring needed in the vehicle, and CANBUS allowed a lot of data to be shared between different modules using just two wires. But once you have an ECU controlling stuff, the engineer will look at it and think "what else can I do with this?". Tyre pressure monitoring via ABS is a good example: there are already speed sensors on each wheel collecting data and sending that back to the ABS controller, all it takes to add tyre pressure monitoring is add a few lines of code to the software in the ABS and instrument controllers, and add some warning lights and now you have tyre pressure monitoring with very little extra effort. A lot of clever little features will have evolved this way.

 

It's also worth remembering that all of these addition technologies have arrived slowly over time. 1989 was 32 years ago - that's a very long time in technology development, and makes for a very stark comparison with 2021, but if you compared 1989 with say 1990 or 1991, the changes would be marginal.

[Ootohere]

There are car reviewers road testing and reviewing the likes on the VW ID.3 and complaining or commenting on the 'Lane Assist' and saying that you need to make 3 or 4 actions using the switches & screen to 'switch it off' and claiming that legislation says it can not be easily switched off.

 

If the legislation does say that, then oddly plenty cars have lane assist that is on at start up and just needs one momentary press of a button to turn it off.

 

New drivers passing a driving test might never know what was standard on cars built in the last decade let alone ones before that.

The only car they ever get in for lessons and that they will drive will have Stop / Start, Lane Assist and parking sensors or cameras.

 

@3mins 10 seconds.

 

 

Edited 3 January, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[Breezy_Pete]

Wow; I just read the opening post in that linked thread. 

Glad I'm old enough to be unlikely to have to encounter such a massive steaming pile of horsepoo as what's referred to there.

 

[threadbear]

I frequently see drivers of cars that clearly have the required tech, still unable to park their car or using a phone in the traditional illegal method when the tech is available with the vehicle to use it safely. 

[J.R.]

Do you guys have to click to accept cookies for the ESP / ESC, ABS / TC / ASR / XDS/ XDS+ systems & then wait while they download the latest version before you can drive off?

[Ootohere]

Everything is there ship shape and Bristol fashion and ready to do their thing unless you opt out or they are not working and neither are the warning lights or messages.

Much like the Haldex, the car might have it and many have no idea if it functions until somehow someone notices it does not.

Like airbags, it is assumed they will function even though they are years out of date.

[Westbury63]

Some very detailed and informative replies, thank you.

 

From what I am reading and the links posted, the technology has been gradual and not at the behest of consumers but legislators. Interesting.

 

I remember reading an article by Richard Hammond many years ago. He was talking about his Yamaha FS1E 50cc needing an MOT in February each year, and how the 16 miles round trip to the MOT station on such an underpowered (although not when you're 16 they're not! ) vehicle on slippery rural roads acted as a bit of a reset button. It reminded him about other road users and viewing hazards for what they might be, potentialy life changing encounters. I think it would do most folk the world of good to experience the same. Maybe to a couple of hours on a 125cc and a  couple of hours on a pedal cycle ideally, to remind them of what roads are like outside of their supersafe metal boxes. Reset their driving to surviving without a never ending list of letters confirming the safety stuff fitted ESP / ESC, ABS / TC / ASR / XDS/ XDS+ etc.

 

26,610 people were killed or seriously injured on UK roads in a year. 1770 deaths, meaning 24,840 were seriously injured. 68 people every day!  This figure remains fairly constant despite all the increases in standard fit safety equipment, How come this does not make the news? Why is this acceptable? What cost to society in purely financial amounts if nothing else?

 

So if the safety kit fitted increases, yet to no real decrease to the 26610 figure, then surely we need to look at driver education and training? I for one would be happy to sit my drivers test every few years, or have it subject to appraisal.

 

Believe it or not, 1989 doesn't seem like a lifetime ago. In 2005 I purchased a 2002 Octavia and ran that for 13 years. It had all the tech I've ever wanted and all the tech I'll ever need. I wouldn't have minded cruise control mind. However, looking at the Scala technology in the thread I referenced, I don't think a new Skoda would be for me. 

 

 

[J.R.]

Me neither, my 2015 Yeti has less tech than my first 2001 Octavia and I love it all the more because of that.

[Ttaskmaster]

I quite fancy one of the cars in Cyberpunk 2077, with all the tech-laden dashboards. If Electric Cars looked and sounded like those, I'd buy one in a heartbeat!!

However, that's just a computer game and I suspect the reality would be a GDPR (or should that be CDPR? ) nightmare of clicking to accept cookies and spyware and permissions and all that, just to get the window wound down!!

 

 

20 hours ago, Westbury63 said:

So if the safety kit fitted increases, yet to no real decrease to the 26610 figure, then surely we need to look at driver education and training?

 

Nope.

It just means that people cannot be trusted to drive a vehicle themselves, meaning we need to bring in self-driving vehicles... meaning companies (headed by MPs' mates, of course) supplying all the tech and programming will get the government contracts, **** it up and leave us worse off than before, but by then no-one will be around who still remembers how to drive a proper car, so we'll be stuck with renting mindless conveyor-belt boxes.

[edbostan]

Cars are stuffed with too much electronic technology. At the tender age of 18 i owned my first car a Morris Minor. By golly I safely drove that and then I owned a range of 'dumb' models. HA Viva, BL Mini, Dolomite, Ford Orion. And then my first injection Fiat Multipla. My current car is a Roomster which lacks hill start, cruise control, lane assist, emergency braking assist and infotainment screen. Oh to keep to the simple life

[Westbury63]

24 minutes ago, edbostan said:

Cars are stuffed with too much electronic technology. At the tender age of 18 i owned my first car a Morris Minor. By golly I safely drove that and then I owned a range of 'dumb' models. HA Viva, BL Mini, Dolomite, Ford Orion. And then my first injection Fiat Multipla. My current car is a Roomster which lacks hill start, cruise control, lane assist, emergency braking assist and infotainment screen. Oh to keep to the simple life

 

Agreed. In 31 yrs of car ownership and 49 cars so far, the majoirty have been relatively basic. I have owned Citroen 2CV and Dyane, which I would argue are about the most basic car one can own. Lots of BL cars, early Fords and Vauxhalls. I have also had a 1984 Citroen CX 2.5 DTR, that was fairly complex, as indeed was my 1985 BMW 525e Auto. However, compared to todays cars, they really were relatively basic.

 

I was reading today on a Briskoda post about a replacement battery needing to be coded to the car. I didn't know that was even a thing! Cars having many ECU's that talk to each other via Canbus. Too complex. Read @ chimaera post above for a cracking description. Scary stuff though IMO. The MK1 Octi I ran for 12 yrs had none of those issues.

 

I'm 100% up for passive safety kit, airbags and such. I'm up for reduction in emissions and improvements in efficiencies, but beyond that.......too much tech.

 

I ran a 2016 Citigo for 18 months. Really liked the little car, loved the mpg and zippo road tax, but even that had tech I didn't want. Hill hold control or whatever its called. The car chose to hold the handbrake very briefly to stop me rolling back! For flips sake, who ever asked for that? If you can't stop a car rolling back, you should post your licence back to DVLC SA99 on the basis of ineptitude. I didnt't know it had the system fitted until post purchase and then checked the owners manual.

 

Maybe I should have titled this thread "Grumpy Victory Meldrew luddite wonders how did cars end up with so much tech fitted?"  

[chimaera]

21 hours ago, Westbury63 said:

26,610 people were killed or seriously injured on UK roads in a year. 1770 deaths, meaning 24,840 were seriously injured. 68 people every day!  This figure remains fairly constant despite all the increases in standard fit safety equipment, How come this does not make the news? Why is this acceptable? What cost to society in purely financial amounts if nothing else?

While the numbers of collisions and fatalities may have been stable, the number of cars and drivers on the road is steadily increasing year to year. More people spending more time on the road should increase the number of collisions and deaths; that those numbers are stable suggests that actually yes, the safety tech is doing its job to make the roads safer. It's a massive problem with media reporting on road safety: all of the focus is on the absolute number of deaths/injuries rather than the rate per million vehicle kilometres or some other similar metric. While each of those deaths is a tragedy at the individual human level, it's disingenuous to focus on those numbers alone when discussing the effects of road safety technology improvements.

[Breezy_Pete]

Marketing will be another strong driver for the ever-increasing array of 'toys'.

 

The 'my car does x; doesn't yours?' BS/vanity/insecurity/willy-waving nonsense that seems more and more popular as time goes by.

 

If your car isn't lit up like a freakin Christmas tree inside and out you're just no-one right? 

 

 

[skomaz]

On 05/01/2021 at 14:43, Westbury63 said:

 

So if the safety kit fitted increases, yet to no real decrease to the 26610 figure, then surely we need to look at driver education and training? I for one would be happy to sit my drivers test every few years, or have it subject to appraisal.

 

 

To some degree yes...   the problem is two fold and a bit of a vicious circle combined.  Driving standards do seem to be dropping, leading to an increase in accidents, so education and training is worthwhile but also in-car tech is creating distraction which is also leading to accidents and some of the accident-preventing tech is in and of itself, distracting (witness Germany's courts ruling on the Tesla).

 

 

[Ttaskmaster]

I expect people are also over-reliant on the 'safety tech' to save them.

 

[Westbury63]

 

On 06/01/2021 at 14:22, Wino said:

Marketing will be another strong driver for the ever-increasing array of 'toys'.

 

The 'my car does x; doesn't yours?' BS/vanity/insecurity/willy-waving nonsense that seems more and more popular as time goes by.

 

If your car isn't lit up like a freakin Christmas tree inside and out you're just no-one right? 

 

 

 

Bar bragging rights and all that, good point. I know the badge means a lot to most/some people, but frankly I couldn't give a monkeys. I have had cars fully loaded with leather and all the toys, but I get bored or used to them in a few days. If it starts, stops, does a decent mpg and keeps me and my family safe, I'm happy. My MK1 Octi (broken record or what?? ) had all the toys I ever wanted or needed. In 12 years it never once went wrong and cost less than a daily newspaper in depreciation.

 

I read about a lot of modern car woes that are as a result of over complexity. Less is more. Less to go wrong + more money in my savings account (which has 0.5% interest FFS).  

 

When I started motoring, and I kid you not, things like a 5 speed gearbox, rev counter and fuel injection counted as flash.

 

 

On 06/01/2021 at 18:25, skomaz said:

 

To some degree yes...   the problem is two fold and a bit of a vicious circle combined.  Driving standards do seem to be dropping, leading to an increase in accidents, so education and training is worthwhile but also in-car tech is creating distraction which is also leading to accidents and some of the accident-preventing tech is in and of itself, distracting (witness Germany's courts ruling on the Tesla).

 

 

 

Yeah, agreed. Flippin Volvo syndrome. Too safe. As I said earlier, try a safety reset and take a 125cc for a spin for an hour. Soon wake you up to the dangers of roads.

 

Gordon Tullock was onto something with his theory.   https://www.econlib.org/tullocks-covid-spike/

[Colin170CR]

I agree with most what's been said above. I think modern cars do have too much tech - or is it just me getting older & not being able to get my head around all the tech? Probably a bit of both.    

I mentioned recently in another thread that my last S2 Superb Elegance CR170 & my current S3 L&K Superb 280 both had / have Park Assist - the thing that turns the steering wheel & parallel parks the car for you. I've never used this on either car & have never felt the need to use it either. I would have much preferred a Panoramic Roof instead but since I bought both cars 2nd hand I didn't have a choice & Park assist was a standard fit on both of them - why?

  

I started driving in 1972. I passed my test in my instructors Mk1 Escort & my first car was a 1964 HA Viva hand-me-down from my dad to get me off the 2 wheel death trap I had been riding prior to that. That HA Viva had a heater but that was about it - no power steering, no electric windows, manual choke (women drivers used to pull out the choke to hang their handbags on it - old Jasper Carrot joke ), terrible headlights, no reversing lights, drum brakes all round & no power assistance. I spent most of my GM apprentice wages on adding fogs, heated rear window kit, disc & servo brakes from Brabham Viva I found in a junk yard, new alloys, new twin choke carb etc etc. I then got rid of the HA Viva & got an 1969 HB Viva GT which had the 2litre twin carb engine from the Victor VX4/90, I added a race exhaust, stage 2 head, twin Webbers, high lift cam, neg camber wishbones, alloys, decent cassette radio etc etc. Even with that lot the the HB was still a very basic car as they all were in those days.   

 

Then followed a string of mostly instantly forgettable company cars which had increasing levels of kit as the years rolled on - MkII Ford Escort Estate, FE Victor Estate, CF Bedford works van (which only had 3 gears!), BL Maxi, Dolomite, Cortina's, Mk I & II Cavaliers, Vauxhall Carlton & Belmont, Rover 400, Citroen Xantia, Pug 406, Black Alpha 156 with red leather (loved this car), Renault Scenic, Mondeo. Then some privately owned - Audi A6 1.9tdi estate, previously mentioned S2 Superb & current S3 Superb. 

Every car came with more & more kit & I think my current Superb has more than enough tech on it for my little brain to coupe with which is why it will probably be the last car I will have for everyday use.

Being an avid watcher of the TV series Bangers & Cash I'm seriously considering an old classic car that I could tinker with to use in the summer months & that would actually fit in my single garage - who can actually get their daily driver in a standard single garage these days . 

 

Fact is that even with all the safety kit in the world fitted if the driver is a knob they will still have accidents. Just like the idiot I came across today who went straight on in front of me at a mini roundabout that I was turning right on with his mobile in his ear. I've a good mind to check my dash cam to see if I got him & his reg on camera & post it to the local plod.

Enough ranting I think. 

 

        

[Aspman]

Feature count sells cars.

 

Just because you're sensible and think it's all rubbish (it is) doesn't mean there aren't 10 people behind you who desperately want their car hooked up to their instagram and twitter feeds.

 

To get the Range Rover working properly I've had to set up at least 3 seperate inline accound for different parts of the ICE. One for the sat nav, one for the car itself and anotehr for I've no idea really. And after that I still have to manually download and transfer the map updates using a USB stick. My BMW was a 2015 and could do it over the airwaves.

[Westbury63]

Not a good news story this, but too much tech?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55662657

 

The Smith dials in my Triumph Dolomite never had that problem. My many Skoda's have all had proper dials and wouldn't be subj to this problem.

 

I would be terrified to be motoring at speed and loose all the instruments in my car. Flat panel screens have no place in cars in the opinion of this mildly luddite nearly 50yo bloke!

[Westbury63]

On 08/01/2021 at 16:24, Colin170CR said:

Fact is that even with all the safety kit in the world fitted if the driver is a knob they will still have accidents.

Very true.

 

Colin170CR, great post. Nice to hear a Jasper Carrot reference. I've had many of the cars you have too. It is amazing that even a boggo poverty spec modern motor has more stuff fitted that I want or need. I remember, as I know you do to, when have a passenger side door mirror fitted was posh !!

 

On 08/01/2021 at 16:36, Aspman said:

Feature count sells cars.

 

Just because you're sensible and think it's all rubbish (it is) doesn't mean there aren't 10 people behind you who desperately want their car hooked up to their instagram and twitter feeds.

 

To get the Range Rover working properly I've had to set up at least 3 seperate inline accound for different parts of the ICE. One for the sat nav, one for the car itself and anotehr for I've no idea really. And after that I still have to manually download and transfer the map updates using a USB stick. My BMW was a 2015 and could do it over the airwaves.

 

Instagram and twitter have no place in cars for flips sake. I had no idea people did that. Maybe explains some of the terrible driving I see .

 

Cars like your Rangie look very comfy. If you ever feel the need to lend one out for a few weeks, I'd be happy to put some mileage on the clock for you!! No worries. But the prospect of all that faffing about?? No way.

 

IMy car has a radio with preset stations, a USB slot and the facility to change the channels and volume from the steering wheel, that does me fine.

 

[Ootohere]

I was driving a Volvo when i first got it and everything went blank on the dash and i could not figure what was wrong so pulled over and stopped and put up my sunglasses and then everything was showing again.

A couple of times of glasses on, glasses off and i realised it must be the lenses that was the issue....

[Westbury63]

I'm very surprised given that Volvo is synonymous with safety. Poor design that,

5 minutes ago, e-Roottoot said:

glasses on, glasses off

very Mr. Miyagi

 

I once had all the dash back light bulbs blow so I couldn't see the dials. Blue tack and a small torch fixed it for a couple of weeks until I could get the time to take the clocks out. 1991 VX Astra, took 10 minutes to do and change out of a £2. I bet Elon is looking at a slightly bigger bill with his cars and their knackered screens.

[chimaera]

2 hours ago, e-Roottoot said:

I was driving a Volvo when i first got it and everything went blank on the dash and i could not figure what was wrong so pulled over and stopped and put up my sunglasses and then everything was showing again.

A couple of times of glasses on, glasses off and i realised it must be the lenses that was the issue....

LCD screens usually have a polarising filter on them. If you look at them from the wrong angle with polaroid sunglasses the light from the screen is completely blocked.