Front differential to gearbox - oil leak :(

[CrispyJ]

Hello, 

 

It's a sad day. My VRS is leaking oil . . . . something I did not anticipate, or expect after a mere 4 years of ownership. Sadly, the car is now out of warranty. 

 

So, it appears from a workshop walk-through video, created by a Skoda technician, oil is leaking between the front diff (VAQ E diff to be precise) and the gearbox. This was the technicians diagnosis of the problem, not mine. To address it, they are proposing full seal replacement, all of them between the components in question. £970 inc VAT to undertake the work. At which point, I fell off my chair. 

 

The car has been serviced at the dealership since new and it's had all of the regular maintenance work (AC/ brake fluid change etc etc) in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations. It's done 34k miles. The garage are unsure what the route cause is, and haven't seen this particular failure before. Whether I believe that, is certainly up for debate. Skoda have so far refused to put any good will toward the repair cost, as requested by the dealership. So, I've contacted them, independently and opened a case directly, I'm yet to receive a response. However, as the car is out of warranty, I'm not holding out much hope. Honestly, I can't fault the dealership so far, although I was slightly shocked at the cost, but I do appreciate it involves a lot of work to disassemble the axle, driveshafts and associated connections to gain access to the seals.

 

My concern is that it won't fix the problem. Why would seals fail after 4 years and such low mileage? I have never had anything like this on any car I've owned, which included a 10 year old BMW, 335i to be precise, which was an absolute lemon - but still didn't cost me £1,000 in one hit to repair! 

 

I have found an article, relating to a Golf GTI (performance), which some of you may know is essentially the same as a vrs 245 (equipped with the same VAQ E diff) with exactly the same problem. VW proposed the same fix, replace all the seals, which failed to fix the problem and the leak was still present. The article went on to discuss another VW owner, who was told by VW that there are 'quality control' issues with the manufacturer of the VAQ E-diff, which can cause leaks. The Golf, in question eventually had the entire VAQ replaced with a brand new unit, presumably under warranty. I'm unable to confirm the veracity of this, however. Clearly the internet is full of many tall stories, but I'm extremely reluctant to depart with £1,000 on a whim, when my gut feeling is that seals shouldn't fail after only 4 years at such low mileage. 

 

Can anyone verify this claim re VAQ diffs and quality control issues? Original article link here https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/gli-6mt-with-transmission-oil-leak.9346459/page-2

 

Also, if anyone has any tips about how to get Skoda to pony up some cash, it would be much appreciated! 

 

I'm really rather disappointed, the car also suffered the infamous 'coolant' leak, which happened under warranty, so it needed a new thermostat. Again, under warranty, but when considered together, these are major problems for a car and manufacturer that is supposedly more reliable than most of its competition. Perhaps I've just been unlucky! 

[Ootohere]

Was the VAQ diff serviced to Manufacturers Recommendations and were you ever told what those were? 

 

That would be the thing the Dealership that has been doing the Servicing to the manufacturers Recommendations / Guidelines Service Desk staff that would need to be telling you. 

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/494489-front-differential-service-vrs-245

 

Edited 27 January, 2022 by roottoot

[CrispyJ]

Hi roottoot, 

 

 

 

My instructions to the dealership have always been, service it and maintain it to the manufacturer's recommendations. 

 

I have asked them about various components on the car, including the diff, to which they have always replied, we'll ask you before we service it as and when the guidelines tell us to do so. I'm confident they haven't serviced the front dif, because I haven't seen it on any of the bills and they haven't specifically asked me for permission to do it, which I assume means, it isn't time to do it yet. Either it isn't old enough, or it hasn't covered the requisite number of miles. 

 

Or, of course they should have done it by now and just haven't realised! 

 

To my knowledge, correct my if I'm wrong, a service includes complete oil replacement and a filter change? 

 

 

[Ootohere]

Well tell them that.  They have been very very lax. 

 

The Service is what you pay for.     Are you on a Service Plan? 

Oil & Filter Changes of the Engine.

DSG, Haldex, Brake Fluid, Air Filters, Pollen Filters. Spark Plugs are all extras, as is AC Servicing. 

 

****VAQ E-Diff servicing does not get mentioned by Skoda Main Dealers or Skoda UK.****

 

 

 

SKODA_Warranty_Terms_November_2021 (1).pdf

Edited 27 January, 2022 by roottoot

[CrispyJ]

Interesting! It's four years old, so. . . . 

 

Its had the engine service, AC re-gas, brake fluid. 

 

They haven't done the Pollen filter, Spark plugs, or the DSG oil change. 

 

Is that blue chart readily available? 

[Ootohere]

We are @ 2022 now.  So prices changing.        Some are POA so 'Ask prices'                                 I can post you the Service Sites for Skoda Fixed prices as they are all in Google Images etc. Pre 

 

See the new Service & Maintenance Website.

https://www.skoda.co.uk/owners/servicing-maintenance-fixed-price

 

*** I have never seen Skoda UK / CZ or any VW Group site mention the VAQ Diff.***

 

Edited 27 January, 2022 by roottoot

[xman]

IMO, just changing seals will not fix it, they leak for a reason, its likely a bearing has failed causing the diff to move when power is put on/off. You may hear a clunk when you go from power/overrun and vice versa, indicating movement.

 

As gearbox oil lev is no longer checked at a service, you may have been driving some time on low oil and further damage to gears and bearings due to overheating and

movement from correct position. Does the gearbox drone a bit when accelerating?

 

You need a good gearbox specialist to look at it. They are going to be much cheaper than Skoda anyway. And they can confirm the dealer findings or otherwise.

[Ootohere]

But first pursue Full Main Dealer Servicing to Manufacturers recommendations and never ever any indication that there are Service Recommendations on the VAQ Diff.

[CrispyJ]

Thanks for the suggestion. 

 

I shall see if there are any local to me. 

 

I can't say I've heard any noises, that seem out of the ordinary. 

 

I do hear a sound, shortly after take-off, it's short-lived and its high pitched to begin with, like something electro-mechanical is either opening, or closing. 

[fabdavrav]

Servicing for these units (either front VAQ or rear Haldex) is not listed in the main schedules, its under the ambiguous title of "Country-specific additional work dependent on time & mileage".....& is stated as simply "Every three years"..

 

You can remove the VAQ unit, get the correct driveshafts & code out the module..& then remove the existing open diff in the gearbox & fit a proper LSD (wavetrak)....& save weight, servicing & have more predictable handling...

 

Loads on info in this thread on such a conversion

Swapping a Wavetrac LSD into a VAQ Equipped car | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

[TheClient]

Is the dealer where you have had servicing the same dealership that sold you the car? 

[CrispyJ]

Interesting info on the Wavetec conversion, I'll take a look, but honestly sounds more expensive than the current repair bill 🤑.

 

No, I bought the car from a Skoda dealership in Oxford. I have been using my local Skoda dealership for servicing/ maintenance/ MOT. 

 

I've been looking a little more into the VAQ diff, to try and identify where the leak is actually coming from. It looks like it bolts on to the gearbox on the passenger side. I've circled what appears to be the interface between the diff lock and the GB housing. I assume this is where the technician discovered the oil leak. I can understand why they want to change the seals, but still concerned it won't fix the problem. If that's the case it's difficult to imagine any other solutions that doesn't involve completely replacing the VAQ lock. . . . and I'm guessing that will cost much more than £1,000. 

 

It occurred to me also, that the strange sound I've been hearing (high pitched electronic sound) may be related to the VAQ lock. I realised that, when I bought the car, the operation of the diff was very noticable, especially with Sport selected on the driver select i.e. you could feel the wheels gripping the road and pulling the car out of bends. I don't know whether I just drive slower, now, or whether it has stopped working, because I honestly haven't been aware of it in a while. Other than driving the thing like a maniac, are there any simple tests I can do to make sure it is working????

 

 

[xman]

These threads seems to imply changing seals doesn't work, problem lies in the VAQ unit or diff itself due to quality issues, requiring a new VAQ or diff, not sure which.

 

 

https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/gli-6mt-with-transmission-oil-leak.9346459/

 

https://www.golfmk7.com/forums/index.php?threads/vaq-or-transmission-leak.348824/

 

Edit: Sorry, just noticed you've already posted those links in your initial post....

 

 

Where in the UK are you?

Edited 28 January, 2022 by xman

[CrispyJ]

Yes, I agree with you. The problem is, the dealership have decided they want to attempt to replace seals, first. I probably ought to go back to them and have a discussion about the VAQ unit, specifically referring to the experience of that Golf owner. If I can find a way of demonstrating that it's broken (if that is indeed the problem) then arguing the case for wholesale replacement, instead would be more persuasive. 

 

I'm frustrated that they're just guessing, tbh. I would expect a technician to disassemble the front end, and actually diagnose the problem before proposing a fix. Sure, seals are certainly one explanation, but there are definitely more! 

 

 

[Ootohere]

@CrispyJ  What age was the car when you bought it and at what mileage, and what mileage now?

 

A technician will easily disassemble and diagnose the fault.  You are going to be paying for that.

£60 for the first 30 minutes maybe as per Fixed Service & Maintenance @ participating dealers.

 

Maybe £115 an hour though plus VAT and then you might get that reduced in the final bill if you get them to do the work. 

 

EDIT,sorry, 

I see now that it has done 34,000 miles.

Edited 28 January, 2022 by roottoot

[TheClient]

1 hour ago, CrispyJ said:

nNo, I bought the car from a Skoda dealership in Oxford. I have been using my local Skoda dealership for servicing/ maintenance/ MOT. 

Well it would be worthwhile sending a well worded letter and follow up phone call to the director or dealer principal of the selling dealer.  I would assert your rights under the consumer rights act that the fault present now, is not as a result of fair wear and tear and is a durability / fitness for purpose issue.

 

If you've got anything in writing or you can quote as to cause from the repairing / servicing dealer that would be useful. Or a views as to whether it is wear and tear. The onus is on you to prove it is not wear and tear, and you may need a report,  but a lot depends on the attitude of the selling dealer to your complaint as to what you do or if it is worthwhile.

 

Forget contacting the selling dealer service department and talking goodwill from VWUK. The consumer rights act means you have to deal with the selling dealer direct and it is up to them what they do in the background in seeking their own support from VWUK. It does not directly affect the outcome to you.  This is assuming there is no extended or current warranty in play.

 

The slight distraction  is the 3 year oil change that may not have been done by the service dealer.  If the other dealer was to point the finger you would have to think carefully about whether this has contributed....  Given the age and mileage I severely doubt it but it maybe an out they are looking for. I'd not mention it unless it comes up.

 

 

 

[CrispyJ]

Yes, thank, I'll probably do that - what do I have to lose!  I hadn't considered the Consumer Rights Act. The technician and servicing dealer have stated, several times, they have never encountered this problem before. So, one could argue that it isn't wear and tear because if it were, you'd expect more examples of it on similarly aged vehicles. However, it is impossible to know how long the leak has been present and thus, impossible to prove it was a fault at purchase. 

 

 

[TheClient]

5 hours ago, CrispyJ said:

Yes, thank, I'll probably do that - what do I have to lose!  I hadn't considered the Consumer Rights Act. The technician and servicing dealer have stated, several times, they have never encountered this problem before. So, one could argue that it isn't wear and tear because if it were, you'd expect more examples of it on similarly aged vehicles. However, it is impossible to know how long the leak has been present and thus, impossible to prove it was a fault at purchase. 

 

 

Yes. but proving the fault was there at purchase, does not mean you have to prove it was leaking at purchase!  My interpretation is it is more proving that there is a durability / production / design issue meaning it fails prematurely, and that was present from purchase....  Nothing to lose. You don't have to be unreasonable or harsh, just state facts as you see them and ask for their help under the act......

[CrispyJ]

Update: Further cost obtained £2,100 inc VAT to replace the VAQ e diff completely, if the seal replacement doesn't cure it (970 inc VAT), total cost in excess of £3K worst case. 

 

I began a 'case' with Skoda customer service. The case officer has failed to contact me directly, but he did speak to me after I called, a week ago, he said he needed to speak with the dealership. Interestingly, he is never available when I call (apart from the one time mentioned above), but he has put notes on the case claiming to have called the dealership. However, the dealership haven't received any voicemails or messages or follow-up emails from this guy. I checked with the chap at the dealership, who I know very well - and is a decent guy and always returns my phone calls. The case officer also claimed, he'd tried to call me on several occasions, but my phone received no missed calls, no voicemails and he didn't follow up with an email. He's either lying, or isn't very pro-active (i.e. leave a voicemail or send an email), either way it's a fairly atrocious start. 

[Ootohere]

Best Contact Skoda UK and ask if Kate Laws is still the senior Resolutions Manager and this guys boss. 

Skoda / VW UK Customer Services needs to deal with any internal issues they have with employees not fit for purpose in their senior teams if the contact is part of them. 

[CrispyJ]

Thank you. I've asked for an alternative contact, when this guy hasn't been available. Obviously they shut me down. I need to find my way through the bureaucracy - this will help!   

[CrispyJ]

Update: Things seemed to move quickly, after my phone call this morning. 

 

Skoda have offered a 40% contribution to the seal repair, which also comes with a two warranty. So, if it leaks again - they replace the seals again, under warranty. 

 

Reduces the bill to £530 + a wheel alignment +£59. 

 

Still a hefty bill . . . . .