Octavia's Punchin' 💪

[Swirly182]

Had it over 5 years and this car still amazes me. 

 

(For the concerned, I have a spreadsheet with all actual weights for car and caravan. Also if anyone's bothered - a manual 245 estate with spare wheel, tow bar, tools and roof bars weights 1460kg without driver, confirmed at weighbridge). 

Edited 26 May, 2023 by Swirly182

[J.R.]

Your car is draggin its ar5e like a dog with worms!

 

What length and weight is the caravan?

 

Mine is a 6.4m twin axle, 1485kg I think, its static now as I am living in it during my building works, it only got towed here and will be towed to the next owner, all tyres well perished by the sun.

[Swirly182]

Nose weight is correct at 75kg, but there's a lot in the boot!

 

Actual van weight is 1554kg. (MRO 1430kg / MTPLM 1650kg). Length is 8.3m including hitch. Car weight loaded ready to go on holiday is 1890kg.

[MarkyG82]

Can the nose weight be reduced a bit to reduce the load. I know the recommendation is 75kg (or there about) but is there a minimum? Obviously you need positive weight.

[Swirly182]

30 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

Can the nose weight be reduced a bit to reduce the load. I know the recommendation is 75kg (or there about) but is there a minimum? Obviously you need positive weight.

I personally wouldn't want to go lighter on the nose weight. I think a better alternative would be to put some heavier items in the roof box, without exceeding the 75kg roof load. As you can probably tell, I'm obsessed with weights at the moment 😴😴😴

[J.R.]

Drive it like that and you will see the insides of your rear tyres disappear before your eyes to be replaced by shredded steel and canvas plies.

 

Dont ask me how I know.

 

These vehicles drag their ar5e simply with passengers in the rear let alone luggage and trailer nose weight, there are none showing in the photo but given the bunk beds in the caravan I am betting you have rear passengers when you tow.

 

I have uprated the rear springs on all 3 of my Skoda tow vehicles, the unladen ride height may look a bit odd but the unladen ride and handling is unchanged, the laden/towing ride and handling is transformed and no inner tyre wear.

 

I have done 45000 miles on the Yeti tyres and they were second hand when I got it, by carefully rotating them and tweaking the pressures all 4 now are evenly scrubbed with approx 3.6mm tread depth which will last a very long time, many more miles per mm than the initial wear and they grip superbly for the first time.

 

The only problem is them being visible in the open wheel arches people keep remarking that my tyres are bald, they are not even down to the 3mm tread wear indicators which are nearly twice the legal limit, it shows that most people have to replace their tyres through uneven wear well before they need to, they think an evenly scrubbed tyre must be illegal!

 

The very first job I did on the Yeti was to uprate the rear springs as even then there were signs of the inside rear edges wearing, had I not done so I would have had to replace them twice over by now as I have done tens of thousands of miles towing overloaded trailers and of course the caravan.

 

 

Edited 26 May, 2023 by J.R.

[J.R.]

3 hours ago, Swirly182 said:

Length is 8.3m including hitch

 

40cm longer than mine, no way would I want to tow a single axle version at that length especially with the long overhang of the Superb and an additional 400kg payload in the vehicle and with standard suspension.

 

You are also way beyond the 85% kerbweight guideline, OK its not enforceable and I can't talk given what I regularly tow but the very short rear overhang of the Yeti is a great advantage especially with uprated springs. I had the brown trouser tank slapper moment of a lifetime on the M25 towing a twin axle removal trailer with the MK1 Octavia which prompted me to uprate the rear suspension.

[Swirly182]

Only one journey so far and stability is good. The car is within it's gross weight, the caravan is 100kg below MTPLM, outfit is within the car's gross train weight. Tyre pressures good. Caravan is loaded well. Nose weight is correct. 

 

The only thing not satisfied is the 85% guideline. I'm yet to find any hard data to justify this. All you get is that it's 'meant for beginners'. 

 

I take your point on the low rear suspension. However the vRS is stiffer than standard. I guess the Octy will have a slightly shorter overhang than the Superb? 

 

Having said all this, I am considering swapping to either an A4 or A6 Allroad. 

[Warrior193]

I used to tow various trailers with reduced nose weights (for easier single handed handling) - and used an adjustable, friction type, stabiliser attachment instead. No stability issues.  

[Ootohere]

The Estate / vRS suspension might well be stiffer.

I would be using good spring assistors / helpers as the rear still dips even with a stabalizer or especially with. 

 

?

What springs are on the cars that come with Factory Tow Bar or Preparation?

@Carlstonmight well know.

 

http://mad-suspensionsystems.com/en/applications/passenger-car

http://mad-suspensionsystems.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 27 May, 2023 by toot

[J.R.]

Helper springs worked well on my MK1 Octavia and were very easy to fit, I used Grayston ones as I had an account with them but all todays offerings are far too expensive and much more than the uprated OE ones from Killen or Lesjofors (made in same factory on same tooling).

 

I eventually fitted Cop spec springs from a Police car in a scrapyard and they worked better than the helper springs.

[J.R.]

13 hours ago, Swirly182 said:

Only one journey so far and stability is good. The car is within it's gross weight, the caravan is 100kg below MTPLM, outfit is within the car's gross train weight. Tyre pressures good. Caravan is loaded well. Nose weight is correct. 

 

Agreed on all of those but the rear suspension is far too low even without the rear seat passengers, the jockey wheel is very low, maybe you can remove it, it will ground on say the entrance to a field or on traffic calming measures.

 

The big concern will be the wear on the inner edge of the rear tyres due to the excessive camber change on the VAG setup. The problem is not the nose weight of the caravan but the settled position of the probably weakened rear suspension springs, they are already on the bump stops before the vehicle encounters any suspension movement or pitching from the long single axle caravan.

[Swirly182]

It's not on the bump stops though. The jockey wheel would ground before the suspension bottoms out. The rear of the car squatted as much with the previous, smaller and lighter caravan. Had many trips with this one and didn't get any tyre inner edge wear and stability was also very good. 

 

Good discussion 👍

 

A4 Allroad. Will this offer significantly better towing performance?

[Carlston]

37 minutes ago, Swirly182 said:

It's not on the bump stops though. The jockey wheel would ground before the suspension bottoms out. The rear of the car squatted as much with the previous, smaller and lighter caravan. Had many trips with this one and didn't get any tyre inner edge wear and stability was also very good. 

 

Good discussion 👍

 

A4 Allroad. Will this offer significantly better towing performance?

 

If you've got 5Q0511115R rear springs, then changing to these 5Q0511115S rear springs should help. About 5% to 10% stiffer than 5Q051115R and will increase the ride height by about 10mm (more if the current springs have started to sag).

 

Considering that there's not much labour involved in changing rear springs, it might be worth doing.

 

If you PM Pete with your VIN, he can check if your factory rear springs are 5Q0511115R.

 

Eibach R19953 (matching 5Q0511115S)

 

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/eibach/18259209

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275598016886

 

As you can see in the chart below, 5Q0511115S is one up in the hierarchy compared to 5Q0511115R.

 

No	Part code	Title	Note	Quantity	Model
		suspension impact padding for vehicles with sports suspension			PR-1JE
1	5Q0511115M	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YA
1	5Q0511115N	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YB
1	5Q0511115P	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YC
1	5Q0511115Q	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YD
1	5Q0511115R	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YE
1	5Q0511115S	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YF
1	5Q0511115T	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YG
1	5Q0511115AA	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YH
1	5Q0511115AB	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YJ

https://www.lllparts.co.uk/catalogs/skoda/CZ/OCT/805/5/511/511003

 

Edited 27 May, 2023 by Carlston

[Warrior193]

Re. the items in the trunk - reduce weight here by moving some of the heavy items to trailer, position over axle.

[J.R.]

I was going to suggest that but thought that both were probably loaded close to the limit, now we have the numbers there is some room for adjustments and that is the obvious one.

 

I am usually loading a flat load space with no rear seats so this is of no use to Swirly with the family but I try to put all the heavy items in the rear footwells and also the front passenger footwells, anything heavy as far forward as I can get within the limits of practicality, at the rear behind and over the axle is generally just my small backpack with clothes, the coolbox and coolbag etc.

 

Another thing to check when the rear suspension is sagging like that is that when you couple the trailer look at the front suspension and not the rear, you may well notice that the front of the car actually lifts as the noseweight creates a turning moment about the rear axle, this I don't need to mention is very undesirable. All these things can happen yet the weights remain within the specified limits showing that a common sense approach is needed.

 

With the stiffer rear springs on the Yeti and my penchant for a higher than normal noseweight the lifting of the front of the vehicle is very noticable meaning I have to redistribute the trailer load.

Edited 27 May, 2023 by J.R.

[J.R.]

4 hours ago, Swirly182 said:

A4 Allroad. Will this offer significantly better towing performance?

 

How many times will you be towing?

 

You have an excellent twoing vehicle (everybody says so) and no lack of performance, a change of rear springs will make it worthy of its name!

 

The A4 or another vehicle bought for towing might compromise the majority of your other mileage.

 

4 hours ago, Swirly182 said:

It's not on the bump stops though

It most likely is or would be if they had not decomposed as they like to do, they are not a virtually solid bump stop like the rubber ones between a leaf sprung axle and the chassis, on the Superb like all the other models they are a foam concentric bellows around the shock absorber spindle, much more progressive in action, they decompose all on their own but if they endure constant cycling like yours will at that lowered ride height they have a very short life, the first sign is usually a rattling or scraping as the dust cover drops down.

 

I'm sure your ride and handling will improve both when towing and unladen with a pair of uprated rear springs and new bump stop sleeves, neither have a very long life on these vehicles because they are so undersprung, Carlston will probably confirm that your rear springs are a Golf fitment.

[Swirly182]

Really interesting and helpful comments J.R. and others - thank you.

 

The limiting factors with this tow car are the gross train weight of 3558kg and the lower max towing weight of 1600kg. I am having to be obsessed with weights (of everything!) and I am admittedly at the upper end of the car's capability with this caravan, so clutch / gearbox life and hill starts are potential issues, in addition to the squatting rear end as JR has pointed out.

 

Towing miles only make up 20%, if that, of the car's annual mileage. This is an important factor as you say JR.

 

The A4 Allroad 3.0 TDI is heavier, will have a significantly higher gross train weight and a higher max towing weight meaning I can load the caravan up to the MTPLM. It has a higher roof load so the roof box could carry heavier items. Suspension is lifted by 35mm but I'm unsure if I wouldn't have the same issue with the boot loaded up. Some Allroads have adaptive damping so having a firmer dynamic setting may help.

 

I have test driven a couple of A6 Allroads with the air suspension which would eliminate this issue and are capable of pulling pretty much any caravan, but I didn't enjoy driving them.

 

Anyway, we're off to Wales on Monday so I'll load the car up as best I can, ensure the noseweight remains at 75kg and see how the rear looks. I'll also have more miles experience with this combo and if my positive first impressions continue, I may install the uprated springs as opposed to swapping cars. The ZF 8 speed automatic gearbox in the Allroad is calling me though 😂

[J.R.]

Bonne Route!

[Swirly182]

Thought I'd better report back on this after the helpful advice I've received. Overall the trip went very well - I didn't do any damage to the hitch whilst grounding out, didn't snake and we didn't end up on the roof!

 

Power and torque was never in question. There is plenty of both for this size and weight of caravan. It still can maintain 60mph up hills in 6th with the cruise set. 

 

Stability is very good on motorways and A roads which has backed up my initial impression from collecting the caravan last week. Loading the caravan up a bit always makes it feel better.

 

B roads were more of a problem with this new caravan. As JR predicted, undulations in the road caused suspension bump stop strikes and there wasn't much travel before this happened. I also had four or five jockey wheel strikes on speed bumps. So really have to slow right down to have a chance of clearing them. 

 

Because of how well the car performed overall, I am going to try a suspension upgrade (yes, as JR stated above!) whether that's a helper spring or uprated spring I'm not sure yet. Should also add to the already good stability at higher speeds with more weight towards the front wheels. 

[Swirly182]

On 27/05/2023 at 17:37, Carlston said:

 

If you've got 5Q0511115R rear springs, then changing to these 5Q0511115S rear springs should help. About 5% to 10% stiffer than 5Q051115R and will increase the ride height by about 10mm (more if the current springs have started to sag).

 

Considering that there's not much labour involved in changing rear springs, it might be worth doing.

 

If you PM Pete with your VIN, he can check if your factory rear springs are 5Q0511115R.

 

Eibach R19953 (matching 5Q0511115S)

 

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/eibach/18259209

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275598016886

 

As you can see in the chart below, 5Q0511115S is one up in the hierarchy compared to 5Q0511115R.

 

No	Part code	Title	Note	Quantity	Model
		suspension impact padding for vehicles with sports suspension			PR-1JE
1	5Q0511115M	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YA
1	5Q0511115N	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YB
1	5Q0511115P	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YC
1	5Q0511115Q	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YD
1	5Q0511115R	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YE
1	5Q0511115S	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YF
1	5Q0511115T	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YG
1	5Q0511115AA	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YH
1	5Q0511115AB	Coil spring		2	PR-1JE+0YJ

https://www.lllparts.co.uk/catalogs/skoda/CZ/OCT/805/5/511/511003

 

Looks like I have the 'Q' type according to the label on the spring itself. Are these shorter / softer than the R and S types? 

[Carlston]

1 hour ago, Swirly182 said:

Looks like I have the 'Q' type according to the label on the spring itself. Are these shorter / softer than the R and S types? 

 

Yes, 5Q0511115Q is softer/shorter than 5Q0511115R and 5Q0511115S.

 

So by going up to 5Q0511115S, you will be going up two in the hierarchy, ie. twice the improvement compared to if you were only going up one in the hierarchy.

 

Eibach R19953 (matches 5Q0511115S)

 

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/eibach/18259209

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275598016886

[Swirly182]

11 hours ago, Carlston said:

 

Yes, 5Q0511115Q is softer/shorter than 5Q0511115R and 5Q0511115S.

 

So by going up to 5Q0511115S, you will be going up two in the hierarchy, ie. twice the improvement compared to if you were only going up one in the hierarchy.

 

Eibach R19953 (matches 5Q0511115S)

 

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/eibach/18259209

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275598016886

Thanks. So twice the improvement whilst towing / loaded up but what about the other 80% of the time? I know there's going to be a compromise somewhere. 

 

My only other option is the MAD Red Airbag system, which you air-up and down as required. This is around £270... I can't find many reviews about it though. 

 

https://mad-suspension.co.uk/know-your-springs/mad-air-bags/

[Carlston]

3 hours ago, Swirly182 said:

So twice the improvement whilst towing / loaded up but what about the other 80% of the time? I know there's going to be a compromise somewhere. 

 

There's also the option of going up just one in the hierarchy to 5Q0511115R. In the Kilen spring catalogue, Kilen are showing this as the standard rear spring for the Octavia MK3 VRS, rather than the 5Q0511115Q that you actually have.

 

However, looking at how much your rear end is compressed with the caravan attached, it might be better to go up two in the hierarchy. If your current rear spring has started to sag, then it might just be necessary to go up one in the hierarchy.

 

From the specification of Eibach R16554 (that matches 5Q0511115R), it might be a slightly stiffer rear spring than the others, because it claims to have an 11.5mm wire diameter instead of the usual 11.25mm wire diameter that appears to be more normal for this OEM part number.

 

5Q0511115R

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/oem/5q0511115r?search=OEN 5Q0511115R&supplier[0]=85&supplier[1]=112&supplier[2]=246

 

The below three springs should match 5Q0511115R because no other OEM part numbers are listed against them. Beware of springs with more than one OEM part number listed against them, because they may not be an exact match to the OEM part number that you want. For example, if an aftermarket spring is being sold to replace two different OEM part numbers, then that aftermarket spring can't be an exact match for both of these OEM part numbers. Where multiple OEM part numbers are shown against an aftermarket spring, it might be longer and/or stiffer than the spring that you want.

 

Some rear springs matching 5Q0511115R

Eibach R16554

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284964461709

Kilen 63143

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/113808057980

KYB RA7157

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334881250972

 

The following three springs might be rebranded KYB RA7157 springs as the specification and part numbers shown in their listings seems remarkably similar. If so, then the Japko ZCJ7157A at about £15 each (plus shipping) on a 36% off day (usually Mondays) seems good value. However, these three "cheap" brands (but not necessarily cheap) might simply be copying KYB and not an actual KYB spring.

Japko ZCJ7157A

Ashika ZCA7157A

Japanparts ZC7157A

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/car-parts/oem/5q0511115r?search=OEN 5Q0511115R&supplier[0]=193&supplier[1]=10029&supplier[2]=10914&supplier[3]=85

 

Edited 7 June, 2023 by Carlston

[J.R.]

You can spend all day trying to find & buy the alleged Mad air suspension for your vehicle & it always leads you back to helper springs, I realise that I have been down that wormhole before, I dont think that they exist.

 

Dont use helper springs, they are a bodge and your springs are clapped.

 

I have never found any compromise with using higher rate rear springs on these vehicles, only positives, they are ridiculously undersprung for the UK market, yours more than most.