How safe is LPG fumigation really?

Basil · 26-03-2007, 08:40

I've been trying to get some opinions about the safety of LPG fumigation. Apparently LPG acts as a catalyst increasing the amount of diesel burnt from a normal of about 75% to virtually 100%. Benefits include better fuel economy, less smoke and more power. There are kits like the US Powershot 2000 that can be ordered set up and calibrated for the VW 1.9TDI engine, making them essentially plug in and play...

However I wonder just how safe for the engine LPG setups really are.

I'd really welcome a good informed discussion!

Cheers

Bas

WW_VRS · 26-03-2007, 10:10

I have the non-US version, which works a little different but same kinda principle.

It CAN be safe BUT as per my experience, if you have any engine related trouble then having the LPG will make it go wrong a lot more..

I reckon when set to a very low flow rate things should be perfectly safe, higher flow rates don't appear to be though. I have no idea whether that caused the problem on mine but fairly sure the thermostat --> head gasket --> overheating = detonation as propane exploding too soon because of that was roughly how my engine died..

As a result, if I do ever turn it back on again, it will be with additional temperature sensor fitted at the very least, and if there is a knock sensor that can be fitted to turn off propane that's what I'll do

devonutopia · 26-03-2007, 10:57

Mine's good. Not got that long a break at college to go in depth though.

vindaloo · 26-03-2007, 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basil

I've been trying to get some opinions about the safety of LPG fumigation. Apparently LPG acts as a catalyst increasing the amount of diesel burnt from a normal of about 75% to virtually 100%. Benefits include better fuel economy, less smoke and more power. There are kits like the US Powershot 2000 that can be ordered set up and calibrated for the VW 1.9TDI engine, making them essentially plug in and play...

However I wonder just how safe for the engine LPG setups really are.

I'd really welcome a good informed discussion!

Cheers

Bas

I'm not a real expert but the armchair type...

IMO LPG fumigation is a good thing if you're trying to improve economy on cruise and you do mega-mileage. Tuning for power, I think can be done but IMO it's far more difficult as you're stepping into more critical areas of the engine's operation - higher output and higher revs.

Main concerns are exhaust gas temperature and the effects on the exhaust valves and the turbo, and the potential for pre-ignition/detonation damge to the engine. I don't think either of these concerns are new or a secret as they're stated on many/any sites which discuss LPG fumigation. For power tuning of diesel cars, however, there would seem to be a dearth of experts and low numbers of vehicles equiped with the equipment.

J.

WW_VRS · 26-03-2007, 13:15

It's the pre-ignition/detonation that killed my engine.

Must admit the idea of having LPG for fuel economy was the main reason I got it, and it DID work. I will have to discuss this a bit more with some tuners to find out what can be done, it sure used to help spool up the turbo at the lower end and it did give some extra power too, although I think with the derv alone I can get that sorted

I'd like to use the propane to clean up the exhaust smoke a tad and perhaps gain a very small amount of power but tuning it for fuel economy on the diesel side would get my vote based on what I now know about it.

NOS would be a laugh too but it would take up valuable space in my boot, as well as it being expensive to refill etc, so I am very much likely to not bother with it

devonutopia · 26-03-2007, 13:17

Good post Mr Curry.

EGTs are something you need to be aware. I have a tasy gauge to fit in mine once I get a free weekend to do it. (Not for another 3 weeks at least now....) I am expecting EGTs to go up quite high, but I know the tolerances and will make sure I don't push it too far.

WW_VRS · 26-03-2007, 14:53

My EGT sensor needs fitting, hole is ready and waiting

devonutopia · 26-03-2007, 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by WW_VRS

hole is ready and waiting

Ooo-er missus!

I have a hole in my exhaust too only I hope Allard shoved a bolt in it or something else I'm losing fumes a little too early.

WW_VRS · 26-03-2007, 15:25

Lol :d

yellowcupra · 26-03-2007, 22:00

I can supply the PowerFool2 nitrous kit and the TSP-PP Propane system both designed for diesel engines. Take a look at Diesel Performance Specialists to see whats available

devonmikeyboy · 26-03-2007, 22:59

Anyone fitting a propane system needs to make sure that it is EU approved for roads in this country and approved by insurance companies which most American systems are not, plus have a signed certificate from an approved LPG fitter that the system was fitted correctly. The propane system i have adds about 40bhp to my engine. My EGT`s have gone up a bit but nothing more then expected really. When setting up for power you have to be very careful not to get detonation if you do turn the propane down or you will kill your engine same as running any engine with predetonation. Fitting a propane kit to a small diesel engine ( 1.9 etc ) for economy etc reasons is a complete waste of money as by the time you have bought and fitted the kit ( if done properly ) your looking at paying at least £1000 + .

vindaloo · 27-03-2007, 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by devonmikeyboy

Anyone fitting a propane system needs to make sure that it is EU approved for roads in this country and approved by insurance companies which most American systems are not, plus have a signed certificate from an approved LPG fitter that the system was fitted correctly. The propane system i have adds about 40bhp to my engine. My EGT`s have gone up a bit but nothing more then expected really. When setting up for power you have to be very careful not to get detonation if you do turn the propane down or you will kill your engine same as running any engine with predetonation. Fitting a propane kit to a small diesel engine ( 1.9 etc ) for economy etc reasons is a complete waste of money as by the time you have bought and fitted the kit ( if done properly ) your looking at paying at least £1000 + .

...though the less frequent fill-ups would give the fuel station "pikies" less chances to skim your credit card....

I think fitting a system purely for economy is, as you state, a waste. However, giving greater economy whilst greatly improving performance and reducing smoke/soot production. The overall package would seem to be a winner.

What would be nice is for a respected tuner to produce a tuning kit incorporating the LPG.

J.

WW_VRS · 27-03-2007, 11:29

I will one day go back to using propane but for now I've left it off, it was giving me some performance but mainly improved spool-up low down rev range and better fuel economy throughout.

However at the moment I can't risk another engine

26-03-2007, 08:40	#1
Basil Hardcore Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bahrain Posts: 3,240 Thanks: 191 Thanked 194 Times in 151 Posts	How safe is LPG fumigation really? I've been trying to get some opinions about the safety of LPG fumigation. Apparently LPG acts as a catalyst increasing the amount of diesel burnt from a normal of about 75% to virtually 100%. Benefits include better fuel economy, less smoke and more power. There are kits like the US Powershot 2000 that can be ordered set up and calibrated for the VW 1.9TDI engine, making them essentially plug in and play... However I wonder just how safe for the engine LPG setups really are. I'd really welcome a good informed discussion! Cheers Bas __________________ Fab vRS - Black Magic - PD160 intake - Forge FMIC - colour coded front grille -SLC Splitter - K&N Airfilter -SEAT Strutbrace - Jabba ARB - IC Waterspray (need to wire it in!) - 312mm TT brakes - Eibach Springs - Skoda Reversing sensors - Devonutopia Tuning (tm) Custom Exhaust (2 1/4" straight pipe) - Short shifter mod- 5 brake light mod - Helix Steel SMF + Organic Clutch + pressure plate - Peloquin LSD - TD stage 2 Hybrid - Washbrook remapped ECU - Uprated injectors - Cupra bushes -Poly-filled dogbone - Allard racepipe - Pirelli Dragons - Forge Rear Strutbrace - DIY SS upper boostpipe delete -Koni FSD's - elephant pipe CCV mod

26-03-2007, 10:10	#2
WW_VRS Escorted Estate Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Oxfordshire/Berkshire Posts: 9,862 Thanks: 45 Thanked 81 Times in 71 Posts	Re: How safe is LPG fumigation really? I have the non-US version, which works a little different but same kinda principle. It CAN be safe BUT as per my experience, if you have any engine related trouble then having the LPG will make it go wrong a lot more.. I reckon when set to a very low flow rate things should be perfectly safe, higher flow rates don't appear to be though. I have no idea whether that caused the problem on mine but fairly sure the thermostat --> head gasket --> overheating = detonation as propane exploding too soon because of that was roughly how my engine died.. As a result, if I do ever turn it back on again, it will be with additional temperature sensor fitted at the very least, and if there is a knock sensor that can be fitted to turn off propane that's what I'll do __________________ WW --->> Project Journal (pic links in first post there) Lummox'/Ross thread on Unit18 Automotive progress on my car: here

26-03-2007, 10:57	#3
devonutopia Mongreller Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Exeter / Devon Posts: 30,084 Images: 5 Thanks: 76 Thanked 347 Times in 290 Posts	Re: How safe is LPG fumigation really? Mine's good. Not got that long a break at college to go in depth though. __________________ Jason - Mongrel owner! WOOOOF! Grrrrr Custom Fabia Bonnet Lifter Kits - £45! Click Me. Cheesy bonnet lifter video to "raise me up" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnGECEi5Oc See the mongrel's 260bhp Dyno Video!

26-03-2007, 13:15	#5
WW_VRS Escorted Estate Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Oxfordshire/Berkshire Posts: 9,862 Thanks: 45 Thanked 81 Times in 71 Posts	Re: How safe is LPG fumigation really? It's the pre-ignition/detonation that killed my engine. Must admit the idea of having LPG for fuel economy was the main reason I got it, and it DID work. I will have to discuss this a bit more with some tuners to find out what can be done, it sure used to help spool up the turbo at the lower end and it did give some extra power too, although I think with the derv alone I can get that sorted I'd like to use the propane to clean up the exhaust smoke a tad and perhaps gain a very small amount of power but tuning it for fuel economy on the diesel side would get my vote based on what I now know about it. NOS would be a laugh too but it would take up valuable space in my boot, as well as it being expensive to refill etc, so I am very much likely to not bother with it __________________ WW --->> Project Journal (pic links in first post there) Lummox'/Ross thread on Unit18 Automotive progress on my car: here

26-03-2007, 13:17	#6
devonutopia Mongreller Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Exeter / Devon Posts: 30,084 Images: 5 Thanks: 76 Thanked 347 Times in 290 Posts	Re: How safe is LPG fumigation really? Good post Mr Curry. EGTs are something you need to be aware. I have a tasy gauge to fit in mine once I get a free weekend to do it. (Not for another 3 weeks at least now....) I am expecting EGTs to go up quite high, but I know the tolerances and will make sure I don't push it too far. __________________ Jason - Mongrel owner! WOOOOF! Grrrrr Custom Fabia Bonnet Lifter Kits - £45! Click Me. Cheesy bonnet lifter video to "raise me up" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnGECEi5Oc See the mongrel's 260bhp Dyno Video!

26-03-2007, 14:53	#7
WW_VRS Escorted Estate Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Oxfordshire/Berkshire Posts: 9,862 Thanks: 45 Thanked 81 Times in 71 Posts	Re: How safe is LPG fumigation really? My EGT sensor needs fitting, hole is ready and waiting __________________ WW --->> Project Journal (pic links in first post there) Lummox'/Ross thread on Unit18 Automotive progress on my car: here

26-03-2007, 15:25	#9
WW_VRS Escorted Estate Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Oxfordshire/Berkshire Posts: 9,862 Thanks: 45 Thanked 81 Times in 71 Posts	Re: How safe is LPG fumigation really? Lol :d __________________ WW --->> Project Journal (pic links in first post there) Lummox'/Ross thread on Unit18 Automotive progress on my car: here

26-03-2007, 22:00	#10
yellowcupra Briskodian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: yorkshire Posts: 126 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Re: How safe is LPG fumigation really? I can supply the PowerFool2 nitrous kit and the TSP-PP Propane system both designed for diesel engines. Take a look at Diesel Performance Specialists to see whats available

26-03-2007, 22:59	#11
devonmikeyboy Briskodian Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: southwest Posts: 115 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: How safe is LPG fumigation really? Anyone fitting a propane system needs to make sure that it is EU approved for roads in this country and approved by insurance companies which most American systems are not, plus have a signed certificate from an approved LPG fitter that the system was fitted correctly. The propane system i have adds about 40bhp to my engine. My EGT`s have gone up a bit but nothing more then expected really. When setting up for power you have to be very careful not to get detonation if you do turn the propane down or you will kill your engine same as running any engine with predetonation. Fitting a propane kit to a small diesel engine ( 1.9 etc ) for economy etc reasons is a complete waste of money as by the time you have bought and fitted the kit ( if done properly ) your looking at paying at least £1000 + . __________________ 06 Audi 2.0 PD140 Sport TDI Quattro S-LINE.Diesel,propane,NOS,hybrid turbo etc...... 330 bhp @ flywheels 263 bhp @ wheel 440 lb torque. . Car and dyno pictures etc here Magazine write up here

27-03-2007, 11:29	#13
WW_VRS Escorted Estate Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Oxfordshire/Berkshire Posts: 9,862 Thanks: 45 Thanked 81 Times in 71 Posts	Re: How safe is LPG fumigation really? I will one day go back to using propane but for now I've left it off, it was giving me some performance but mainly improved spool-up low down rev range and better fuel economy throughout. However at the moment I can't risk another engine __________________ WW --->> Project Journal (pic links in first post there) Lummox'/Ross thread on Unit18 Automotive progress on my car: here

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