FMIC options.

Goochie · 05-05-2006, 13:49

A local company we supply with welding gear has offered a very cheap intercooler for my Octavia

I mentioned this to a Briskoda regular who warned that an incorrectly dsized FMIC could actually reduce power rather than increase it.

Does anyone have any thoughts/opinions on this?

Also, how much are FMIC's anyway ?

SkodiRS · 05-05-2006, 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goochie

A local company we supply with welding gear has offered a very cheap intercooler for my Octavia

I mentioned this to a Briskoda regular who warned that an incorrectly dsized FMIC could actually reduce power rather than increase it.

Does anyone have any thoughts/opinions on this?

Also, how much are FMIC's anyway ?

Approx £750-£850...around that region.

winx · 05-05-2006, 14:19

when I asked on here ages ago about using a fmic from an evo someone said it would be all wrong, apart from the in and out pipes not being on the o/s of the car there was something else as well but can't remember...

So I would have thought that there are some other considerations to take into account

Nigel26 · 05-05-2006, 14:25

i suppose you need to make sure the core of the IC is compatible with the cars outputs so you dont create excessive lag. you also need an IC that actually does cool the intake temps enough. i suppose you can cool them too much as well.

you'd want the inlet and outlet of the IC to match up with the pipe work "path" of the standard setup so you werent having to use to many pipes or lengths that were going to create lag again.

might be worth checking jabba, jbs and forge for FMIC prices. i think awesome offer something as well.

Goochie · 05-05-2006, 14:43

I shoul dsay that I have no intention of buying an FMIC from on of the regular tuners. I just thought this particular deal seemed too good to miss out on (trouble is they've not done a 1.8T before)

EddyH · 05-05-2006, 14:53

Do some research into the dimensions and pipe routes of some of the more popular FMIC's available and then 'copy' one you like. I think forge has fitting instructions on their site and expect the same would apply to other units such as ABD and APR.

Goochie · 05-05-2006, 14:54

I assume the basics are dictated by the area of the "intake" and the thickness of the unit ? Or are there variations in the veins themselves ?

EddyH · 05-05-2006, 15:00

The end chambers also have a big effect.

Goochie · 05-05-2006, 15:05

When you say "end" is that the top and bottom? Which way does it flow on the Octavia?

EddyH · 05-05-2006, 15:13

Depends on the design. Standard SMIC is top and bottom. My forge is a 'U' so both on the drivers side. ABD is one drivers side and one passenger side.

***ncarring*** · 05-05-2006, 15:37

An inefficient design causes a big pressure drop thus robbing you of some of your boost. Lots of pipework to and from the intercooler with sharp bends in it can do the same thing, so ideally you want a free-flowing core and nice smooth (and not too long) pipework between the various components, AIUI.

vRS_Si · 05-05-2006, 15:38

There are quite large visual differences between the abd and the forge intercoolers.
The forge one seems to be nearly three times as tall and wider...not sure about thickness....does the forge offer substantially better colling than the abd one?

DaveH · 05-05-2006, 15:47

Aren't cheap intercoolers usually off of trucks? There's some good reason not to use them but I can't remember at present.

**VRStu** · 05-05-2006, 15:54

The Forge Intercooler includes a modified crash bar too.

Don't forget to factor in the costs of pipework and hoses when doing your calculations.

piv34uk · 05-05-2006, 16:26

Forge one looks good, downside is you have to replace the crash bar behind the bumper (or modify it) the pipework is kept small because entry/exit is on same side..
Abd one also looks good, thicker in design and no mods; needed to bumper...downside is the pipe run, its huge...it runs out of the right hand side back under the bumper.....more pipe more lag iirc
copy the ABD one but fit a TT manifold with the intake to the right so there would in theory be a better pipe run...and while your at it fit a cold side dv

Phil

**VRStu** · 05-05-2006, 18:18

Phil

A modified crash bar is included in the price of the Forge IIRC.

Sheaf · 05-05-2006, 18:33

As said, it depends on the design.

I've already had the discussion on here about intercoolers from the main tuners vs DIY kits... people make out that the pipework length and intercooler is made for the specific engine etc etc... total BS IMO. It is no different to any other heat exchanger in principle. If somebody can give me a proper engineering explanation as to why a DIY job wont work then I'll be very very suprised.

You need to make sure that the resistance is kept to a minimum, flow is kept to a maximum and cooling is sufficient.
A shorter, fatter IC is the answer, with minimum bends in the pipework, as little pipework as possible and smoothest bends to minimise lag and increase performance.

Ideally inlet and outlet should be on opposite sides, so prevent a 180degree bend. A tall deep IC is also good.
I've seen pics of the Forge IC, and tbh I think it looks crap. It's a U shape, so basically like having 2 ICs and a U bend... an IC this long will increase pressure drop/lag. It has inlet/outlet on the same side which is simply handy for pipework reasons.

I'd be quite tempted to get an larger generic/evo/volvo/pulsar IC which is proven to be capable of flowing/cooling enough for 300bhp or so and install that...

A small IC is capable of reducing power if it doesn't cool as well as the std one, or it restricts flow... to just make sure both of those are better than standard and you're onto a winner.

Would be nice if somebody could take a range of ICs, do flow/cooling tests on them, then post on the net.

EddyH · 05-05-2006, 19:53

The forge FMIC is proven to be good for more than 300bhp.

I agree the U shape design isn't ideal but it's no worse than having a pipe doing the same thing like the abd does. The reason for this is the position of pipework on our cars. A better soloution would be to change the inlet manifold to allow a side to side FMIC however that's not particularly cost effective for the negligable improvement over the kits available currently.

Sheaf · 05-05-2006, 22:52

Well, in theory a pipe that does a u-turn would be better, as air would only travel one length of the IC through the restrictive blades, rather than in the Forge one it travels twice as far. The principle of turning the air is the same, but the in IC restriction would be less.
Remember pressure loss/friction effect is proportional to length, so minimise the length of the restrictive path for optimum results.

How much difference it makes in the real world I dont know.. but in theory a pipe is better, or as you say, side to side.
Would be interesting to see some back to back tests.

thewez · 06-05-2006, 22:29

Agree ish with the idea that a pipe under the itercooler is better, but I have this felling that a well designed end tank, like that of the Forge might be better as the radius of the bend is less, thus less restriction?????

There is a great book out by Corgy Bell all about intercooling, might be worth getting a copy to read?

Cheers,

Scott

05-05-2006, 13:49	#1
Goochie Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Up a tree. Posts: 12,376 Thanks: 7 Thanked 28 Times in 26 Posts	FMIC options. A local company we supply with welding gear has offered a very cheap intercooler for my Octavia I mentioned this to a Briskoda regular who warned that an incorrectly dsized FMIC could actually reduce power rather than increase it. Does anyone have any thoughts/opinions on this? Also, how much are FMIC's anyway ?

05-05-2006, 14:19	#3
winx Briskodian Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: derbyshire Posts: 220 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: FMIC options. when I asked on here ages ago about using a fmic from an evo someone said it would be all wrong, apart from the in and out pipes not being on the o/s of the car there was something else as well but can't remember... So I would have thought that there are some other considerations to take into account

05-05-2006, 14:25	#4
Nigel26 Briskodian Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Walsall, West Midlands Posts: 2,298 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: FMIC options. i suppose you need to make sure the core of the IC is compatible with the cars outputs so you dont create excessive lag. you also need an IC that actually does cool the intake temps enough. i suppose you can cool them too much as well. you'd want the inlet and outlet of the IC to match up with the pipe work "path" of the standard setup so you werent having to use to many pipes or lengths that were going to create lag again. might be worth checking jabba, jbs and forge for FMIC prices. i think awesome offer something as well. __________________ Sea Grey Mondeo Titanium X

05-05-2006, 14:43	#5
Goochie Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Up a tree. Posts: 12,376 Thanks: 7 Thanked 28 Times in 26 Posts	Re: FMIC options. I shoul dsay that I have no intention of buying an FMIC from on of the regular tuners. I just thought this particular deal seemed too good to miss out on (trouble is they've not done a 1.8T before)

05-05-2006, 14:53	#6
EddyH Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 4,897 Thanks: 40 Thanked 26 Times in 26 Posts	Re: FMIC options. Do some research into the dimensions and pipe routes of some of the more popular FMIC's available and then 'copy' one you like. I think forge has fitting instructions on their site and expect the same would apply to other units such as ABD and APR. __________________ EddyH Audi S8 Audi A3 2.0 TDI Sport

05-05-2006, 14:54	#7
Goochie Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Up a tree. Posts: 12,376 Thanks: 7 Thanked 28 Times in 26 Posts	Re: FMIC options. I assume the basics are dictated by the area of the "intake" and the thickness of the unit ? Or are there variations in the veins themselves ?

05-05-2006, 15:00	#8
EddyH Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 4,897 Thanks: 40 Thanked 26 Times in 26 Posts	Re: FMIC options. The end chambers also have a big effect. __________________ EddyH Audi S8 Audi A3 2.0 TDI Sport

05-05-2006, 15:05	#9
Goochie Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Up a tree. Posts: 12,376 Thanks: 7 Thanked 28 Times in 26 Posts	Re: FMIC options. When you say "end" is that the top and bottom? Which way does it flow on the Octavia?

05-05-2006, 15:13	#10
EddyH Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 4,897 Thanks: 40 Thanked 26 Times in 26 Posts	Re: FMIC options. Depends on the design. Standard SMIC is top and bottom. My forge is a 'U' so both on the drivers side. ABD is one drivers side and one passenger side. __________________ EddyH Audi S8 Audi A3 2.0 TDI Sport

05-05-2006, 15:37	#11
*ncarring* Don't talk, drive! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The B roads of Britain Posts: 12,908 Thanks: 15 Thanked 87 Times in 75 Posts	Re: FMIC options. An inefficient design causes a big pressure drop thus robbing you of some of your boost. Lots of pipework to and from the intercooler with sharp bends in it can do the same thing, so ideally you want a free-flowing core and nice smooth (and not too long) pipework between the various components, AIUI. __________________ Nick

05-05-2006, 15:38	#12
vRS_Si Briskodian Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Coventry Posts: 1,294 Thanks: 8 Thanked 21 Times in 21 Posts	Re: FMIC options. There are quite large visual differences between the abd and the forge intercoolers. The forge one seems to be nearly three times as tall and wider...not sure about thickness....does the forge offer substantially better colling than the abd one? __________________ vRS Mirror polished 9*18" Mercedes Alloys, APR FMIC, ABD TIP & CAI, Powder coated inlet manifold, Jabba Re-map, Blueflame/Pipewerx exhaust, Forge DV, KW v3 coilovers, Neuspeed ARB, S3 strut braces, bonnet lifters, Autostyl rear spoiler, Milotec rear diffuser & bumper grills, side rubbing strips removed, front and rear rubbing strips smoothed and colour coded, scuttle pannel colour coded, chrome grill colour coded, mk2 vRS badge, de-locked, tints, mk4 aero wipers.

05-05-2006, 15:47	#13
DaveH Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sheffield Posts: 806 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: FMIC options. Aren't cheap intercoolers usually off of trucks? There's some good reason not to use them but I can't remember at present. __________________ Mondeo Tdci 115, sweet!

05-05-2006, 15:54	#14
VRStu Briskoda Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hampshire Posts: 20,435 Thanks: 114 Thanked 925 Times in 830 Posts	Re: FMIC options. The Forge Intercooler includes a modified crash bar too. Don't forget to factor in the costs of pipework and hoses when doing your calculations. __________________ Stu - Freedom Pimp Stu's Websites - http://www.fabia-vrs.com & http://www.octavia-vrs.com Stu's Car - Hmm, Have a guess...... SWMBO's Car - 2008 Seat LEON TDi Stylance, Black Magic, Sports Pack, Rear Parking Sensors. Something for Weekend - A Patio

05-05-2006, 16:26	#15
piv34uk NOW @ PEUGEOT Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Bicester,Oxfordshire Posts: 1,431 Thanks: 30 Thanked 37 Times in 36 Posts	Re: FMIC options. Forge one looks good, downside is you have to replace the crash bar behind the bumper (or modify it) the pipework is kept small because entry/exit is on same side.. Abd one also looks good, thicker in design and no mods; needed to bumper...downside is the pipe run, its huge...it runs out of the right hand side back under the bumper.....more pipe more lag iirc copy the ABD one but fit a TT manifold with the intake to the right so there would in theory be a better pipe run...and while your at it fit a cold side dv Phil __________________ 1)RED ONE, FEW MODS; AND A HEALTHY 237bhp 2)GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN, 2ND OWNER OF THE BLACK BEAST, GOD WHAT A HOOT LACK OF PLANNING ON YOUR BEHALF DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN EMERGENCY ON MINE

05-05-2006, 18:18	#16
VRStu Briskoda Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hampshire Posts: 20,435 Thanks: 114 Thanked 925 Times in 830 Posts	Re: FMIC options. Phil A modified crash bar is included in the price of the Forge IIRC. __________________ Stu - Freedom Pimp Stu's Websites - http://www.fabia-vrs.com & http://www.octavia-vrs.com Stu's Car - Hmm, Have a guess...... SWMBO's Car - 2008 Seat LEON TDi Stylance, Black Magic, Sports Pack, Rear Parking Sensors. Something for Weekend - A Patio

05-05-2006, 18:33	#17
Sheaf Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South UK Posts: 157 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: FMIC options. As said, it depends on the design. I've already had the discussion on here about intercoolers from the main tuners vs DIY kits... people make out that the pipework length and intercooler is made for the specific engine etc etc... total BS IMO. It is no different to any other heat exchanger in principle. If somebody can give me a proper engineering explanation as to why a DIY job wont work then I'll be very very suprised. You need to make sure that the resistance is kept to a minimum, flow is kept to a maximum and cooling is sufficient. A shorter, fatter IC is the answer, with minimum bends in the pipework, as little pipework as possible and smoothest bends to minimise lag and increase performance. Ideally inlet and outlet should be on opposite sides, so prevent a 180degree bend. A tall deep IC is also good. I've seen pics of the Forge IC, and tbh I think it looks crap. It's a U shape, so basically like having 2 ICs and a U bend... an IC this long will increase pressure drop/lag. It has inlet/outlet on the same side which is simply handy for pipework reasons. I'd be quite tempted to get an larger generic/evo/volvo/pulsar IC which is proven to be capable of flowing/cooling enough for 300bhp or so and install that... A small IC is capable of reducing power if it doesn't cool as well as the std one, or it restricts flow... to just make sure both of those are better than standard and you're onto a winner. Would be nice if somebody could take a range of ICs, do flow/cooling tests on them, then post on the net. __________________ Parents: '02 Octavia 1.9TDi Me: '99 V Honda Accord Type-R

05-05-2006, 19:53	#18
EddyH Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 4,897 Thanks: 40 Thanked 26 Times in 26 Posts	Re: FMIC options. The forge FMIC is proven to be good for more than 300bhp. I agree the U shape design isn't ideal but it's no worse than having a pipe doing the same thing like the abd does. The reason for this is the position of pipework on our cars. A better soloution would be to change the inlet manifold to allow a side to side FMIC however that's not particularly cost effective for the negligable improvement over the kits available currently. __________________ EddyH Audi S8 Audi A3 2.0 TDI Sport

05-05-2006, 22:52	#19
Sheaf Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South UK Posts: 157 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: FMIC options. Well, in theory a pipe that does a u-turn would be better, as air would only travel one length of the IC through the restrictive blades, rather than in the Forge one it travels twice as far. The principle of turning the air is the same, but the in IC restriction would be less. Remember pressure loss/friction effect is proportional to length, so minimise the length of the restrictive path for optimum results. How much difference it makes in the real world I dont know.. but in theory a pipe is better, or as you say, side to side. Would be interesting to see some back to back tests. __________________ Parents: '02 Octavia 1.9TDi Me: '99 V Honda Accord Type-R

06-05-2006, 22:29	#20
thewez Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Re: FMIC options. Agree ish with the idea that a pipe under the itercooler is better, but I have this felling that a well designed end tank, like that of the Forge might be better as the radius of the bend is less, thus less restriction????? There is a great book out by Corgy Bell all about intercooling, might be worth getting a copy to read? Cheers, Scott

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