The old hesitation after remap problem

Leeboy · 12-11-2007, 15:30

How do we know that this behaviour is just the map. Has it done this since the word go?

Presumably engineers and software writers spend hundreds of hours on developing the original engine management software to iron out this sort of issue.

ethos · 12-11-2007, 16:27

I've found this for a remapped vRS;

It won't be the map. The map will only highlight problems early due to everything being optimised. Sounds like possibly an air mass issue!

To me it feels like turbo surge? So the DV or N75 would be my guess... Might do the n75 first as it's cheaper!

vrs180 · 12-11-2007, 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by martziniuk

Got my car back yesterday after a remap and have noticed a hestitation most noticable in forth and fifth. The car seems to hold back then surge then hold back again before returning to normal.

Mart

Mine has the exact same hesitation you have described, I noticed it about 2 hours into a 180 mile journey home after having a jabba custom remap done last thursday.
Jabba already replaced the N75 valve while they were doing the remap.
Today I have checked all around the pipe work etc (top and bottom) and cannot see any faults.
I'm expecting a Forge 007P to arrive in the next couple of days to replace the std Bosch DV.
I'll let you know if the 007P "does the trick".

bill

PS. I can see this getting expensive

ethos · 12-11-2007, 17:19

Ace keep us updated mate.

I've got a stratmosphere DV on mine at the mo so might be keep to swap it for another DV if it does the trick.

martziniuk · 12-11-2007, 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by vrs180

Mart

Mine has the exact same hesitation you have described, I noticed it about 2 hours into a 180 mile journey home after having a jabba custom remap done last thursday.
Jabba already replaced the N75 valve while they were doing the remap.
Today I have checked all around the pipe work etc (top and bottom) and cannot see any faults.
I'm expecting a Forge 007P to arrive in the next couple of days to replace the std Bosch DV.
I'll let you know if the 007P "does the trick".

bill

PS. I can see this getting expensive

Nice one we shall see what happens

I did a vag-com block 120 bhp/torque run last night and it came back at 237lb/ft of torque.I think this is quite high for a remap on standard car apart from exhaust. I wounder if this problem only affects cars with a high torque figure after a remap?
I am going to do a boost check with vag-com on the turbo when i find out how to, to see just how much pressure its under.

martziniuk · 14-11-2007, 20:05

Ok i found this while searching the web LEON CR fluttering boost problem - SEAT Cupra.net
I know its 17 pages long but it seems to be the same problem as ours. Just another 12 pages left. phew

vrs180 · 15-11-2007, 16:17

Mart and Ethos

I have now got the Forge 007P DV (fitted with a green spring - recommended by Awesome), and intend to fit it in the morning.
Also, I have made a (bench) pressure test rig that will enable me to test both the std DV and the 007P DV (at the same time), and record what pressure each valve is lifting at.

Over the last few days I have been putting a lot of thought into this hesitation problem, and think that the key to resolving it will come from understanding how the functioning of the std (OEM) boost pressure control valves are effected by the increase in boost pressure acting on them, over and above max design working pressure.

If the 007P fails to cure the problem, I intend to fit an adjustable high flow pressure regulating valve between the turbo outlet pipe and the N75 valve. This will enable me to operate the N75 valve, and the turbo waist gate actuator diaphram at OEM (std) max boost levels, without reducing actual max turbo boost level.

Hope the above makes sense to you.....will let you know outcome of the DV.

ethos · 15-11-2007, 16:20

Thanks.

Looking forward to your findings

martziniuk · 15-11-2007, 18:33

Hmmm sounds good.Good luck hope its the dv

vrs180 · 16-11-2007, 17:00

Mart, Ethos

Tested both DV's this morning on my home made test rig and got a suprise at the results.

The various tests I did showed the std (plastic, naff looking) bosch DV off my 17,000 mile, 53 plate vrs is actualy a decent bit of kit, and was as good at holding boost pressure as the new Forge 007P, (and on a couple of occasions was better).

However, maybe I missed something...... but the Forge DV does appear to be working well. backed up by the fact I've just got back from a 20 mile hesitation free white knuckle ride

So is a Forge 007P the answere ???? I'm not sure (yet), were off to Leeds tomorrow and will the give 007P better and longer test.

martziniuk · 16-11-2007, 19:09

Damn good new for you Bill,fingers crossed it stays that way.
I noticed tonight that since remap my DV doesn't chatter when gears changed anymore.
I wounder why?

vrs180 · 17-11-2007, 19:45

Just got back from a 120 mile round trip to Leeds, the car seemed to behave OK on the way there but about half way home it started hesitating again

The hesitation occured in 5th gear at about 70 - 80mph.

Bit pi**ed off at the moment, looks like I just spent nearly a hundred quid on a Forge 007P DV for nothing.

The only good news is, I'm now reasonably confident that my hesitation problem is a direct result of an over enthusiastic waist gate actuator. The hesitation is occuring under max load and torque right at the point when the waist gate should be opening to control boost pressure.

This could be due to a faulty (new) N75 valve, but I think its more likely to be caused by the waist gate actuator opening to fast, to far and closing to slowly, due to the effect of twice OEM levels of boost pressure being applied to the waist gate actuator via the N75 valve.

As stated in my previous post, a 7 psi max pressure regulating valve will be going in the feed pipe to the N75 to try and restore normal control of the waist gate actuator.

This may take a few weeks to get the right regulator valve, but I'll let you know how I get on.

martziniuk · 17-11-2007, 19:50

Hi Bill,
I read on the cupra forum that some members have had 3 new n75 valves just to get one that worked right. I also read that many members tried upgraded n75s and they thought it fixed the prob but a day or so later the hesitation was back.
Hope you get it sorted,you seem to know what your doing.
p.s
I have just bought a secondhand, known to work n75 (3000 miles of use) which should arrive soon i will see if this works for me.

vrs180 · 17-11-2007, 20:39

Hi Mart

Good luck with the N75.... will look forward to hearing how it goes

Does sound like some N75's cope better than others on remaped cars.

It would be just my luck to get a duff one.

ethos · 21-11-2007, 23:42

Ok;

I'm going to (hopefully on my lunch) refit my bosch standard DV to my car instead of the stratmosphere DV I have on at the moment to see if that makes any difference.

If it doesn't, I'm going to clean the throttle body (actually going to do this anyway).

If that doesn't make a different N75

Just need to find out what size jubilee clips I need now!

Also the top pipe has melted a bit on the cover I think;

http://www.aoyt95.dsl.pipex.com/dv.jpg

martziniuk · 21-11-2007, 23:53

I very much doubt the DV will make a difference.I put my new forge dv on not a bit of difference but i didnt think it would.I bought it to make sure the bosch one doesn't expire on me and the diaphram end up in the turbo

.
My n75 is due any day now,i hope this will make the difference

.
Together we will beat this damn hesitation

ethos · 21-11-2007, 23:57

Hmm, it shouldn't take me long to change over though and would be worth trying just incase. Can't do any harm? It was working when it came off!!

I had a "hoon" earlier on and it was getting pretty annoying, couldn't get a smooth run at all with the 3/4 throttle surge.

Oooh, new n75! Are you fitting it yourself?

martziniuk · 22-11-2007, 00:01

yep piece of cake got jubilees already .My mate just laughs he says it sound like iam lifting my foot on and off pedal whilst overtaking.

ethos · 22-11-2007, 00:04

Ha, sweet. If the N75 is easy to change I'm even more keen to do it (after DV and TB testing).

How much did you pay for yours?

Any comments on my top pipe of the DV being a bit flattened off?

martziniuk · 22-11-2007, 00:08

I bought a known working secondhand n75 with 3000miles on it- £26.
The n75 is next to the dump valve with 3 small pipes comming out of it.
Your pipe has probally been rubbing on your engine cover.My dv is mounted in reverse position at moment as mine rubbed.

martziniuk · 22-11-2007, 00:10

I would say vag parts are the cheapest i have seen for a n75. Dealers are very expensive.

ethos · 22-11-2007, 00:10

It's next the diverter valve... I thought it was near the throttle body at the front of the engine! Haven't actually looked for it.

I'm guessing it's not easy access?

I don't think that pipe has "gone through" so it wouldn't be that cause problems (air getting it).

Let me know how you get on when you get it, also some pics of you fitting it would be ace

ethos · 22-11-2007, 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by martziniuk

I would say vag parts are the cheapest i have seen for a n75. Dealers are very expensive.

Yea,

It's the; 058906283F model for £35 isn't it... not bad and if it solves the problem

martziniuk · 22-11-2007, 00:13

The n75 is shown in the pic you posted earlier.to the right of the dv with a electrical connector plugged into it.It looks like it has a jubilee clip on it.Has it already been replaced as they usually come with crimp clips on as standard?

martziniuk · 22-11-2007, 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ethos

Yea,

It's the; 058906283F model for £35 isn't it... not bad and if it solves the problem

Yes thats the one.I would'nt try the j version yet.

12-11-2007, 15:30	#26
Leeboy Briskodian Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hampshire Posts: 1,178 Thanks: 11 Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem How do we know that this behaviour is just the map. Has it done this since the word go? Presumably engineers and software writers spend hundreds of hours on developing the original engine management software to iron out this sort of issue. __________________ Lee Want to be carbon-neutral while driving? Hold your breath!

12-11-2007, 16:27	#27
ethos Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cornwall Posts: 1,193 Thanks: 62 Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem I've found this for a remapped vRS; It won't be the map. The map will only highlight problems early due to everything being optimised. Sounds like possibly an air mass issue! To me it feels like turbo surge? So the DV or N75 would be my guess... Might do the n75 first as it's cheaper!

12-11-2007, 17:19	#29
ethos Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cornwall Posts: 1,193 Thanks: 62 Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Ace keep us updated mate. I've got a stratmosphere DV on mine at the mo so might be keep to swap it for another DV if it does the trick.

14-11-2007, 20:05	#31
martziniuk Need more power Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Driffield, Good old yorkshire Posts: 1,944 Thanks: 54 Thanked 160 Times in 155 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Ok i found this while searching the web LEON CR fluttering boost problem - SEAT Cupra.net I know its 17 pages long but it seems to be the same problem as ours. Just another 12 pages left. phew __________________ Regards Martin Turbo back blueflame exhaust ,Forge 007p Dump valve,Prosport boost gauge, Autobahn88 TIP, Ecu Evolution Remap, FMIC

15-11-2007, 16:17	#32
vrs180 Briskodian Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cleveland Posts: 150 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Mart and Ethos I have now got the Forge 007P DV (fitted with a green spring - recommended by Awesome), and intend to fit it in the morning. Also, I have made a (bench) pressure test rig that will enable me to test both the std DV and the 007P DV (at the same time), and record what pressure each valve is lifting at. Over the last few days I have been putting a lot of thought into this hesitation problem, and think that the key to resolving it will come from understanding how the functioning of the std (OEM) boost pressure control valves are effected by the increase in boost pressure acting on them, over and above max design working pressure. If the 007P fails to cure the problem, I intend to fit an adjustable high flow pressure regulating valve between the turbo outlet pipe and the N75 valve. This will enable me to operate the N75 valve, and the turbo waist gate actuator diaphram at OEM (std) max boost levels, without reducing actual max turbo boost level. Hope the above makes sense to you.....will let you know outcome of the DV. __________________ Bill. Our family car........ Black Octavia vRS: 247bhp 254lbs/ft Wifes car............... Black Ford KA Luxury: 60bhp My summer toy...... Black Yamaha YZF 750R: 125bhp My favourite colour.......Mmmm let me think

15-11-2007, 16:20	#33
ethos Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cornwall Posts: 1,193 Thanks: 62 Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Thanks. Looking forward to your findings

15-11-2007, 18:33	#34
martziniuk Need more power Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Driffield, Good old yorkshire Posts: 1,944 Thanks: 54 Thanked 160 Times in 155 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Hmmm sounds good.Good luck hope its the dv __________________ Regards Martin Turbo back blueflame exhaust ,Forge 007p Dump valve,Prosport boost gauge, Autobahn88 TIP, Ecu Evolution Remap, FMIC

16-11-2007, 17:00	#35
vrs180 Briskodian Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cleveland Posts: 150 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Mart, Ethos Tested both DV's this morning on my home made test rig and got a suprise at the results. The various tests I did showed the std (plastic, naff looking) bosch DV off my 17,000 mile, 53 plate vrs is actualy a decent bit of kit, and was as good at holding boost pressure as the new Forge 007P, (and on a couple of occasions was better). However, maybe I missed something...... but the Forge DV does appear to be working well. backed up by the fact I've just got back from a 20 mile hesitation free white knuckle ride So is a Forge 007P the answere ???? I'm not sure (yet), were off to Leeds tomorrow and will the give 007P better and longer test. __________________ Bill. Our family car........ Black Octavia vRS: 247bhp 254lbs/ft Wifes car............... Black Ford KA Luxury: 60bhp My summer toy...... Black Yamaha YZF 750R: 125bhp My favourite colour.......Mmmm let me think

16-11-2007, 19:09	#36
martziniuk Need more power Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Driffield, Good old yorkshire Posts: 1,944 Thanks: 54 Thanked 160 Times in 155 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Damn good new for you Bill,fingers crossed it stays that way. I noticed tonight that since remap my DV doesn't chatter when gears changed anymore. I wounder why? __________________ Regards Martin Turbo back blueflame exhaust ,Forge 007p Dump valve,Prosport boost gauge, Autobahn88 TIP, Ecu Evolution Remap, FMIC

17-11-2007, 19:45	#37
vrs180 Briskodian Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cleveland Posts: 150 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Just got back from a 120 mile round trip to Leeds, the car seemed to behave OK on the way there but about half way home it started hesitating again The hesitation occured in 5th gear at about 70 - 80mph. Bit pi**ed off at the moment, looks like I just spent nearly a hundred quid on a Forge 007P DV for nothing. The only good news is, I'm now reasonably confident that my hesitation problem is a direct result of an over enthusiastic waist gate actuator. The hesitation is occuring under max load and torque right at the point when the waist gate should be opening to control boost pressure. This could be due to a faulty (new) N75 valve, but I think its more likely to be caused by the waist gate actuator opening to fast, to far and closing to slowly, due to the effect of twice OEM levels of boost pressure being applied to the waist gate actuator via the N75 valve. As stated in my previous post, a 7 psi max pressure regulating valve will be going in the feed pipe to the N75 to try and restore normal control of the waist gate actuator. This may take a few weeks to get the right regulator valve, but I'll let you know how I get on. __________________ Bill. Our family car........ Black Octavia vRS: 247bhp 254lbs/ft Wifes car............... Black Ford KA Luxury: 60bhp My summer toy...... Black Yamaha YZF 750R: 125bhp My favourite colour.......Mmmm let me think

17-11-2007, 19:50	#38
martziniuk Need more power Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Driffield, Good old yorkshire Posts: 1,944 Thanks: 54 Thanked 160 Times in 155 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Hi Bill, I read on the cupra forum that some members have had 3 new n75 valves just to get one that worked right. I also read that many members tried upgraded n75s and they thought it fixed the prob but a day or so later the hesitation was back. Hope you get it sorted,you seem to know what your doing. p.s I have just bought a secondhand, known to work n75 (3000 miles of use) which should arrive soon i will see if this works for me. __________________ Regards Martin Turbo back blueflame exhaust ,Forge 007p Dump valve,Prosport boost gauge, Autobahn88 TIP, Ecu Evolution Remap, FMIC Last edited by martziniuk; 17-11-2007 at 19:57.

17-11-2007, 20:39	#39
vrs180 Briskodian Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Cleveland Posts: 150 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Hi Mart Good luck with the N75.... will look forward to hearing how it goes Does sound like some N75's cope better than others on remaped cars. It would be just my luck to get a duff one. __________________ Bill. Our family car........ Black Octavia vRS: 247bhp 254lbs/ft Wifes car............... Black Ford KA Luxury: 60bhp My summer toy...... Black Yamaha YZF 750R: 125bhp My favourite colour.......Mmmm let me think

21-11-2007, 23:42	#40
ethos Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cornwall Posts: 1,193 Thanks: 62 Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Ok; I'm going to (hopefully on my lunch) refit my bosch standard DV to my car instead of the stratmosphere DV I have on at the moment to see if that makes any difference. If it doesn't, I'm going to clean the throttle body (actually going to do this anyway). If that doesn't make a different N75 Just need to find out what size jubilee clips I need now! Also the top pipe has melted a bit on the cover I think; http://www.aoyt95.dsl.pipex.com/dv.jpg

21-11-2007, 23:53	#41
martziniuk Need more power Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Driffield, Good old yorkshire Posts: 1,944 Thanks: 54 Thanked 160 Times in 155 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem I very much doubt the DV will make a difference.I put my new forge dv on not a bit of difference but i didnt think it would.I bought it to make sure the bosch one doesn't expire on me and the diaphram end up in the turbo. My n75 is due any day now,i hope this will make the difference. Together we will beat this damn hesitation __________________ Regards Martin Turbo back blueflame exhaust ,Forge 007p Dump valve,Prosport boost gauge, Autobahn88 TIP, Ecu Evolution Remap, FMIC

21-11-2007, 23:57	#42
ethos Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cornwall Posts: 1,193 Thanks: 62 Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Hmm, it shouldn't take me long to change over though and would be worth trying just incase. Can't do any harm? It was working when it came off!! I had a "hoon" earlier on and it was getting pretty annoying, couldn't get a smooth run at all with the 3/4 throttle surge. Oooh, new n75! Are you fitting it yourself?

22-11-2007, 00:01	#43
martziniuk Need more power Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Driffield, Good old yorkshire Posts: 1,944 Thanks: 54 Thanked 160 Times in 155 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem yep piece of cake got jubilees already .My mate just laughs he says it sound like iam lifting my foot on and off pedal whilst overtaking. __________________ Regards Martin Turbo back blueflame exhaust ,Forge 007p Dump valve,Prosport boost gauge, Autobahn88 TIP, Ecu Evolution Remap, FMIC

22-11-2007, 00:04	#44
ethos Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cornwall Posts: 1,193 Thanks: 62 Thanked 37 Times in 33 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem Ha, sweet. If the N75 is easy to change I'm even more keen to do it (after DV and TB testing). How much did you pay for yours? Any comments on my top pipe of the DV being a bit flattened off?

22-11-2007, 00:08	#45
martziniuk Need more power Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Driffield, Good old yorkshire Posts: 1,944 Thanks: 54 Thanked 160 Times in 155 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem I bought a known working secondhand n75 with 3000miles on it- £26. The n75 is next to the dump valve with 3 small pipes comming out of it. Your pipe has probally been rubbing on your engine cover.My dv is mounted in reverse position at moment as mine rubbed. __________________ Regards Martin Turbo back blueflame exhaust ,Forge 007p Dump valve,Prosport boost gauge, Autobahn88 TIP, Ecu Evolution Remap, FMIC

22-11-2007, 00:10	#46
martziniuk Need more power Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Driffield, Good old yorkshire Posts: 1,944 Thanks: 54 Thanked 160 Times in 155 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem I would say vag parts are the cheapest i have seen for a n75. Dealers are very expensive. __________________ Regards Martin Turbo back blueflame exhaust ,Forge 007p Dump valve,Prosport boost gauge, Autobahn88 TIP, Ecu Evolution Remap, FMIC

22-11-2007, 00:13	#49
martziniuk Need more power Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Driffield, Good old yorkshire Posts: 1,944 Thanks: 54 Thanked 160 Times in 155 Posts	Re: The old hesitation after remap problem The n75 is shown in the pic you posted earlier.to the right of the dv with a electrical connector plugged into it.It looks like it has a jubilee clip on it.Has it already been replaced as they usually come with crimp clips on as standard? __________________ Regards Martin Turbo back blueflame exhaust ,Forge 007p Dump valve,Prosport boost gauge, Autobahn88 TIP, Ecu Evolution Remap, FMIC

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