The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!!

FocusZtec · 07-10-2008, 22:52

WOW. What can I say.

Well long story short; after all the suspension work on the car I felt that the car was almost 100% but something just didnt give me the total confidence to attack corners like I have in other previous quick cars. Ever since the car was new, Ive not been fully impressed with how stable it felt at higher speeds either.

With this in mind and with the need for some new front tyres I started researching capable, local geometry experts.

During the searches, one name kept coming up positvely, again and again - Wheels InMotion. I'd frankly never heard of them but was willing to do the hour and a bit journey in the hope they would be as good as the forums (Lexus, EVO, MX5, 200SX etc) suggested they would be.

Well, simply put, its the best £100 Ive spent on the car!

I arrived 30 mins early. I was offered coffee or tea on arrival and shown into the waiting room (car mags galore, 60" plasma and windows all round so you can see them working on the cars!) Just 15 minutes into the visit I was asked for my keys. They brought the car round and drove it straight onto the ramp. Tony asked me about the car and specifically any issues I had with the handling. He then explained what they do, how they do it and why they do it! He spent the next 1hr 30mins transforming the car.

I kid you not but if anyone said drive it and tell me what we've done to it - geometry work wouldnt even register! The car now feels 'complete'. Flat and totally planted at high speed, improved stability in long sweeping corners, missing the noise from the rear tyres (and I never even cosidered that a problem originally!) and less skip from the rear on hard, fast corners over ruts. The car is now simply a total joy

Many thanks to Tony for the time and the 90 minutes of geometry education! Every question was answered and the overall service experience was exceptional

Below are a couple of pics showing the car before the changes, a sheet detailing the changes made and a few snaps of the car being worked on.

devonutopia · 07-10-2008, 22:58

Sounds like you can change a lot with the octy. The fabia can only change the front wheel tracking, so the best thing you can do for handling is a 4 wheel alignment to ensure the front wheels are pointing the right way.

From the figures, it seems the main issue was with the back axle. They've altered the camber back there a lot more than the front, same with the toe. On the front, it looks like they've realigned the front wheels a fair bit too, which will have helped loads.

**GAFF** · 07-10-2008, 23:10

Looks like a very professional outfit, with great customer service. How old is the car? I wonder would those changes result of wear and tear or are they coming out of the factory like that. If so then there maybe a lot more of them requiring that.

pittVRS · 07-10-2008, 23:11

This is a really big issue on the MX-5 forums, I hope to get mine done soon, where abouts are WIM, please?

TorqueDude · 07-10-2008, 23:25

pittvrs : WIM Website

Address
33 Chess Business Park
Moor Road
Chesham
HP5 1SD

Telephone
0794 842 7383

gcr31463 · 07-10-2008, 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by pittVRS

This is a really big issue on the MX-5 forums, I hope to get mine done soon, where abouts are WIM, please?

Chesham, Bucks
Full address is on the paperwork in the pix above

Certainly sounds like they've transformed the car

FocusZtec · 08-10-2008, 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by gcr31463

Certainly sounds like they've transformed the car

Yes, they really have. Considering Ive been modding and tinkering with cars all my life Im amazed the difference this has made. Compared to my usual six monthly visit to the locally acknowledged 'professionals' in this field; these guys abilities and quality of service are in another league.

No more two wheel alignment for me (which Tony mentioned and backed up why it was a con to me!), this is all you need doing to the suspension geometry and once its done, its done.

Having said that, I will be doing the journey back for the next two replacement tyres as they instilled such confidence to me on this visit. A got a couple of prices whilst there and they are also highly competitve.

They have some very impressive kit there also, like the touchless tyre changing machine! Particulalry impressive to someone that has had their alloys damaged by the YTS boys at the local tyre outfit in the past!

Incidentally, Im not on any sort of commission with these guys; I just tell it like it is. If I have had bad service from a company, I'll make people wary. On the flipside; if I receive exceptionally good service like in this case, I will also tell people.

Check out their tyre forum for some great free info btw:

Wheels-InMotion (Powered by Invision Power Board)

FocusZtec · 08-10-2008, 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by GAFF

Looks like a very professional outfit, with great customer service. How old is the car? I wonder would those changes result of wear and tear or are they coming out of the factory like that. If so then there maybe a lot more of them requiring that.

Well Im personally convinced that the car wasnt right from day one but it was delivered with dealer fitted Eibachs dont forget. Apparently, the geometry was all done after this was installed but the car never really felt stable at speed. Car is 1 year old now with just over 10k on the clock.

There are a lot of examples of dealer work in this area not being to too convincing (thats putting it really nicely for a public board)

all I'd say is, if at all possible, give these guys a call.

BTW - pricing depends on what needs doing - they have three bands. I fell into the highest as I needed camber, toe and caster alterations.

Lee

**VRStu** · 08-10-2008, 08:11

I'm sold just with the pretty pictures Lee

FocusZtec · 08-10-2008, 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by VRStu

I'm sold just with the pretty pictures Lee

Thought you might be

In all seriousness though Stu; that software is amazing. I have loads more prints just didnt want to bomb the thread with them. It even works out the size of the contact patches of the rubber before and after adjustment! Its staggering. Since my visit I actually find suspension geometry exceptionally interesting!

Lee

brad1.8T · 08-10-2008, 10:35

It took him 90 minutes to do that? (rear cambers, rear toe, front toe)
He must be very "thorough".

What's 100quid worth in the true scheme of things? For down here that's exchanges to $225AUD which is about 1 days pay after tax for (whats called here) a para-professional engineer (ie: a tradesman who has worked his way up to a desk & does high level tech work). But the best (and most expensive) wheel aligner in Sydney would charge about $140 for what was done to your car.

I must admit though, a good wheel alignment puts the icing on the cake.

FocusZtec · 08-10-2008, 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by brad1.8T

It took him 90 minutes to do that? (rear cambers, rear toe, front toe)
He must be very "thorough".

I must admit though, a good wheel alignment puts the icing on the cake.

He was exceptionally thorough. About half of that time was spent discussing things with me and answering my continual stream of questions.

**GAFF** · 08-10-2008, 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by FocusZtec

There are a lot of examples of dealer work in this area not being to too convincing (thats putting it really nicely for a public board)

all I'd say is, if at all possible, give these guys a call.

BTW - pricing depends on what needs doing - they have three bands. I fell into the highest as I needed camber, toe and caster alterations.

Lee

Unfortunately I'm in Ireland so a little difficult to nip down to see them

Quote:

Originally Posted by VRStu

I'm sold just with the pretty pictures Lee

There cool alright, really gives an idea of how out of shape it was before. Was there somebody else who posted pics like that before? Look familiar IIRC

Hauptmann · 08-10-2008, 12:54

The software shown in the pictures is WinAlign from Hunter Engineering. Its a decent enough bit of kit. There are other systems that do the same things (e.g. Bear, Jim Beam, etc etc). I used to work in the motor trade and we used to send out cars to a local guy who had a Jim Beam set up. Very good it was too.
Most of these systems are designed to be almost idiot-proof and spoon-feed the technician through the alignment process. I have done a few cars myself with virtually no training - on some systems the software includes a graphic/image to show the technician where to make the adjustment and which way to turn the bolt etc etc.

The OP's car was not really too far out. The rear camber was only borderline out and the other settings not radically out. Be aware that a car will be set up correctly when it leaves the factory, but as components settle in there will be some changes. Also, the OP's car appears to have been lowered and the alignment may not have been done correctly following this work. Pound to a penny it will be out a bit in a year's time.

£100 and 90 mins is a bit over the top for a few small adjustments. We paid about £50 a time and 20-40mins should see the job done. Its not rocket science and the Octavia is straightforward to adjust. Takes time if you run into a badly siezed fastener though.

You can find details of workshops that have Hunter alignment systems intalled by using the website www.alignmycar.co.uk

Fezboy · 08-10-2008, 14:03

They are not far form and I may just pay them a visit soon

FocusZtec · 08-10-2008, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hauptmann

The software shown in the pictures is WinAlign from Hunter Engineering. Its a decent enough bit of kit. There are other systems that do the same things (e.g. Bear, Jim Beam, etc etc). I used to work in the motor trade and we used to send out cars to a local guy who had a Jim Beam set up. Very good it was too.
Most of these systems are designed to be almost idiot-proof and spoon-feed the technician through the alignment process. I have done a few cars myself with virtually no training - on some systems the software includes a graphic/image to show the technician where to make the adjustment and which way to turn the bolt etc etc.

The OP's car was not really too far out. The rear camber was only borderline out and the other settings not radically out. Be aware that a car will be set up correctly when it leaves the factory, but as components settle in there will be some changes. Also, the OP's car appears to have been lowered and the alignment may not have been done correctly following this work. Pound to a penny it will be out a bit in a year's time.

£100 and 90 mins is a bit over the top for a few small adjustments. We paid about £50 a time and 20-40mins should see the job done. Its not rocket science and the Octavia is straightforward to adjust. Takes time if you run into a badly siezed fastener though.

You can find details of workshops that have Hunter alignment systems intalled by using the website www.alignmycar.co.uk

That was indeed the software that was being used on my car. They use a more advanced piece of software for more highly modified chassis setups

If my original settings werent too far out then I'd love to have a real duffer and feel the difference a decent geometry session with the experts could make.

He showed me the software in great detail. Octavia II specific diagrams and photos of where all the adjustment bolts are on the chassis. Even video detailing changes if you get really stuck! Nothing takes away from the fact that Tony is by far the most knowledgeable chap I have ever met in this area.

Lee

Hauptmann · 08-10-2008, 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by FocusZtec

That was indeed the software that was being used on my car. They use a more advanced piece of software for more highly modified chassis setups

If my original settings werent too far out then I'd love to have a real duffer and feel the difference a decent geometry session with the experts could make.

Lee

WinAlignerTuner is what they used with modified cars. It is for use with cars where the suspension has been lowered. Bascially when you lower a car it (as a rule of thumb) increases negative camber and toe and this software calculates new values based on the amount of lowering and the standard geometry of the car.

On your car the only angle that would have really worried me in your original setup was the right rear toe-in. The excess front toe-in would have scrubbed the tyres a little, but would not have impacted on stability. Ditto the rear negative camber which is at the limit of its tolerance.

Tom_vRS · 08-10-2008, 14:55

Wheels in Motion are amongst the best in the business. They are genuine enthusiasts, and will advise of the best settings for modified cars etc free of charge whether you use them or not.

A good geommetry set up will normally transform a car, and is money well spent, especially if you've been fiddling with the suspension.

Am I right in saying your £100 also gets you a free check in a couple of months? My local place is £47 for full alignment but admittedly alignment is only part of their business.

FocusZtec · 08-10-2008, 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_vRS

Wheels in Motion are amongst the best in the business. They are genuine enthusiasts, and will advise of the best settings for modified cars etc free of charge whether you use them or not.

A good geommetry set up will normally transform a car, and is money well spent, especially if you've been fiddling with the suspension.

Am I right in saying your £100 also gets you a free check in a couple of months? My local place is £47 for full alignment but admittedly alignment is only part of their business.

Hi Tom, you are indeed correct, a free check up further down the road (pardon the pun!) to ensure everything is still spot on and also free Nitrogen for the tyres!

Bill was actually £85 + vat by the way.

Lee

wheels-inmotion · 08-10-2008, 21:51

Hello everyone
I was invited to this thread to explain a little about wim so here goes....

My field as an instructor of chassis dynamics utilizes the Hunter DSP811 high definition series combined with advanced handling software for the modified car.

Our arena is evolutionary Geometry calibration for the domestic and modified market, basically tuning the chassis to the modifications or evolving new calibrations to force requirements desired by the owner.

We calibrate and sponsor cars in Toyota sprint, Timed Attack, British Drift Championships and next season Pro-Drift.

We have also written corrective calibration positions for the Lexus IS200/300/300sc as well as the current issues with the Mazda MX5nc MK3.

Basically we are reasonably clued up on "actual" calibration requirements, current or desired.

I'll leave you with this thought....... Front wheel alignment, what do they align them to?

wilkopilko · 09-10-2008, 16:43

I must admit mine hasn't been to great since I've had the steering rack replaced as part of a recall, would it be worth giving it a go or is this only for modified suspension/steering systems?

Hauptmann · 09-10-2008, 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilkopilko

I must admit mine hasn't been to great since I've had the steering rack replaced as part of a recall, would it be worth giving it a go or is this only for modified suspension/steering systems?

ANY car will benefit from a full alignment IF the alignment is incorrect in the first place.

07-10-2008, 22:52	#1
FocusZtec Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: North London Posts: 817 Members Car: Octy 4x4 1.8T Elegance Hatch Thanks: 29 Thanked 27 Times in 24 Posts	The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!! WOW. What can I say. Well long story short; after all the suspension work on the car I felt that the car was almost 100% but something just didnt give me the total confidence to attack corners like I have in other previous quick cars. Ever since the car was new, Ive not been fully impressed with how stable it felt at higher speeds either. With this in mind and with the need for some new front tyres I started researching capable, local geometry experts. During the searches, one name kept coming up positvely, again and again - Wheels InMotion. I'd frankly never heard of them but was willing to do the hour and a bit journey in the hope they would be as good as the forums (Lexus, EVO, MX5, 200SX etc) suggested they would be. Well, simply put, its the best £100 Ive spent on the car! I arrived 30 mins early. I was offered coffee or tea on arrival and shown into the waiting room (car mags galore, 60" plasma and windows all round so you can see them working on the cars!) Just 15 minutes into the visit I was asked for my keys. They brought the car round and drove it straight onto the ramp. Tony asked me about the car and specifically any issues I had with the handling. He then explained what they do, how they do it and why they do it! He spent the next 1hr 30mins transforming the car. I kid you not but if anyone said drive it and tell me what we've done to it - geometry work wouldnt even register! The car now feels 'complete'. Flat and totally planted at high speed, improved stability in long sweeping corners, missing the noise from the rear tyres (and I never even cosidered that a problem originally!) and less skip from the rear on hard, fast corners over ruts. The car is now simply a total joy Many thanks to Tony for the time and the 90 minutes of geometry education! Every question was answered and the overall service experience was exceptional Below are a couple of pics showing the car before the changes, a sheet detailing the changes made and a few snaps of the car being worked on. __________________ Thanks to JKM: REVO STAGE 2+ remap, Evoms CAI, Piper Turbo back Exhaust, Autotech Fuel Pump, Torque Arm Insert, Forge Recirc, Neuspeed Turbo & Intercooler pipes, APR FMIC, Iridium plugs, Koni FSD's, Eibach springs, Eibach F + R anti roll bars. VF short shifter. 345mm Brakes. 280BHP & 330LB/FT - enough room for a proper trip to B&Q and 36mpg on a run!!! Last edited by FocusZtec; 07-10-2008 at 23:05.

07-10-2008, 22:58	#2
devonutopia Mongreller Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Exeter / Devon Posts: 30,088 Members Car: Skoda Fabia Mongrel Images: 5 Thanks: 75 Thanked 352 Times in 295 Posts	Re: The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!! Sounds like you can change a lot with the octy. The fabia can only change the front wheel tracking, so the best thing you can do for handling is a 4 wheel alignment to ensure the front wheels are pointing the right way. From the figures, it seems the main issue was with the back axle. They've altered the camber back there a lot more than the front, same with the toe. On the front, it looks like they've realigned the front wheels a fair bit too, which will have helped loads. __________________ Jason - Only a Skoda. Custom Fabia Bonnet Lifter Kits - £45! Click Me. Cheesy bonnet lifter video to "raise me up" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnGECEi5Oc See the mongrel's 260bhp Dyno Video!

07-10-2008, 23:10	#3
GAFF Briskodian Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 5,909 Members Car: Octavia II vRS Thanks: 29 Thanked 71 Times in 69 Posts	Re: The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!! Looks like a very professional outfit, with great customer service. How old is the car? I wonder would those changes result of wear and tear or are they coming out of the factory like that. If so then there maybe a lot more of them requiring that. __________________ GAFF Briskoda Ireland Events, Meets & Pictures.....Race Blue Octavia MkII vRS.....Old Octavia MkI vRS

07-10-2008, 23:11	#4
pittVRS Briskodian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Off The Wagon Posts: 5,264 Members Car: MX-5 Thanks: 148 Thanked 113 Times in 79 Posts	Re: The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!! This is a really big issue on the MX-5 forums, I hope to get mine done soon, where abouts are WIM, please? __________________

07-10-2008, 23:25	#5
TorqueDude Briskodian Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 34 Members Car: Octy II 2.0TDi DSG Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Re: The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!! pittvrs : WIM Website Address 33 Chess Business Park Moor Road Chesham HP5 1SD Telephone 0794 842 7383

08-10-2008, 08:11	#9
VRStu Txt Spk Police Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hampshire Posts: 20,848 Members Car: Audi S3 Thanks: 145 Thanked 1,000 Times in 896 Posts	Re: The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!! I'm sold just with the pretty pictures Lee __________________ Stu Stu's Websites - http://www.fabia-vrs.com & http://www.octavia-vrs.com Stu's Car - 2008 Audi S3 - Ibis White, Black Optics Pack, Privacy Glass, Auto Bi Xenon Headlights, Rain Sensing Wipers, Bose Sound System, Ipod Prep, GSM Phone Prep, Flat Bottom Multi Function Steering Wheel, Electric Folding Mirrors, Acoustic Parking, Cruise Control, Interior Light Pack, Non Smokers Pack. SWMBO's Car - 2008 Seat LEON TDi Stylance, Black Magic, Sports Pack, Rear Parking Sensors. Something for Weekend - A Patio

08-10-2008, 10:35	#11
brad1.8T Briskodian Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 71 Members Car: Skoda Octavia 1.8T Thanks: 3 Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts	Re: The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!! It took him 90 minutes to do that? (rear cambers, rear toe, front toe) He must be very "thorough". What's 100quid worth in the true scheme of things? For down here that's exchanges to $225AUD which is about 1 days pay after tax for (whats called here) a para-professional engineer (ie: a tradesman who has worked his way up to a desk & does high level tech work). But the best (and most expensive) wheel aligner in Sydney would charge about $140 for what was done to your car. I must admit though, a good wheel alignment puts the icing on the cake. Last edited by brad1.8T; 08-10-2008 at 10:54.

08-10-2008, 12:54	#14
Hauptmann Briskodian Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 90 Members Car: Nothing Thanks: 1 Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts	Re: The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!! The software shown in the pictures is WinAlign from Hunter Engineering. Its a decent enough bit of kit. There are other systems that do the same things (e.g. Bear, Jim Beam, etc etc). I used to work in the motor trade and we used to send out cars to a local guy who had a Jim Beam set up. Very good it was too. Most of these systems are designed to be almost idiot-proof and spoon-feed the technician through the alignment process. I have done a few cars myself with virtually no training - on some systems the software includes a graphic/image to show the technician where to make the adjustment and which way to turn the bolt etc etc. The OP's car was not really too far out. The rear camber was only borderline out and the other settings not radically out. Be aware that a car will be set up correctly when it leaves the factory, but as components settle in there will be some changes. Also, the OP's car appears to have been lowered and the alignment may not have been done correctly following this work. Pound to a penny it will be out a bit in a year's time. £100 and 90 mins is a bit over the top for a few small adjustments. We paid about £50 a time and 20-40mins should see the job done. Its not rocket science and the Octavia is straightforward to adjust. Takes time if you run into a badly siezed fastener though. You can find details of workshops that have Hunter alignment systems intalled by using the website www.alignmycar.co.uk

08-10-2008, 14:03	#15
Fezboy Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Watford Posts: 2,489 Members Car: Mondeo 2.2TDCI Thanks: 21 Thanked 122 Times in 116 Posts	Re: The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!! They are not far form and I may just pay them a visit soon __________________ Octavia VRs *SOLD* The futures somkey! The futures diesel

08-10-2008, 14:55	#18
Tom_vRS Briskodaholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Fenland, Cambridgeshire Posts: 11,559 Members Car: '97R BMW 328i Saloon Thanks: 679 Thanked 435 Times in 312 Posts	Re: The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!! Wheels in Motion are amongst the best in the business. They are genuine enthusiasts, and will advise of the best settings for modified cars etc free of charge whether you use them or not. A good geommetry set up will normally transform a car, and is money well spent, especially if you've been fiddling with the suspension. Am I right in saying your £100 also gets you a free check in a couple of months? My local place is £47 for full alignment but admittedly alignment is only part of their business. __________________ 97/R BMW 328i in Boston Green.

08-10-2008, 21:51	#20
wheels-inmotion Briskodian Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 33 Members Car: citreon Thanks: 2 Thanked 31 Times in 6 Posts	Re: The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!! Hello everyone I was invited to this thread to explain a little about wim so here goes.... My field as an instructor of chassis dynamics utilizes the Hunter DSP811 high definition series combined with advanced handling software for the modified car. Our arena is evolutionary Geometry calibration for the domestic and modified market, basically tuning the chassis to the modifications or evolving new calibrations to force requirements desired by the owner. We calibrate and sponsor cars in Toyota sprint, Timed Attack, British Drift Championships and next season Pro-Drift. We have also written corrective calibration positions for the Lexus IS200/300/300sc as well as the current issues with the Mazda MX5nc MK3. Basically we are reasonably clued up on "actual" calibration requirements, current or desired. I'll leave you with this thought....... Front wheel alignment, what do they align them to?

09-10-2008, 16:43	#21
wilkopilko Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: South/Middle/then Up a bit Posts: 292 Members Car: Scout TDI Thanks: 9 Thanked 15 Times in 13 Posts	Re: The best £100 I ever spent on the car; Geometry correction!! I must admit mine hasn't been to great since I've had the steering rack replaced as part of a recall, would it be worth giving it a go or is this only for modified suspension/steering systems? __________________ Think_Outside_The_Box