What will common rail do to vRS???

birds town · 09-12-2007, 02:49

Hi,
Just had a test drive in a vRS TDi, went in thinking petrol, dealer only had diesel demo and after a short run, have definitely gone over to the dark side – never drove a diesel with such brutal acceleration (or ability to scare the bajesus out of unsuspecting test pilots

) and thanks to the Irish budget this week, won’t be bankrupted trying to run it…

Thing is, I’m not quite ready to buy yet and by the time I am, the PD lump should have been replaced by the new common rail jobbie. Been reading magazine reviews of VW’s with the lump, which rave about the improved refinement and smoother power delivery – all great, particularly as I spend about a third of my daily commute trickling in traffic BUT I’m worried that “smoother” spells the end of that ‘wow’ moment when the turbo’s fully spun up and you get hurled back in the seat. I’m sure the new motor will be every bit as rapid but I don’t know if it will feel it and that’s the bit that left me grinning like a loony toon

So, a question to any vRS TDi owners out there: would you be happy to trade some of that 2000rpm kick in the back for a bit more refinement and a little more urge before the turbo kicks in? Would it make the car better for everyday driving, even if it didn’t feel as special when you toe it?

Sorry if this seems like a daft question, but had to ask (sooooo much money to spend just to get it wrong - could always get the petrol

)

anonymouse · 09-12-2007, 02:56

I think, as they also say, it will be quieter - a big bonus is the injector replacement cost should be a lot lower as they will then become purely injectors and not a combined (expensive) pump and injector unit that also requires a special and more expensive oil.

johnjohnhealy · 09-12-2007, 04:29

My Mondeo ST is common rail, you still get the big diesel torque shove in the back!

Basil · 09-12-2007, 07:00

The real plus is that uprated injectors should be far far cheaper - easier to mod, lol!

Jonno VRs · 09-12-2007, 10:33

Has it even been confirmed that the current Octy VRs will get the common rail diesel unit? I'd imagine it will continue to come with the PD unit until a new Octavia comes out...

cheezemonkhai · 09-12-2007, 12:07

If you want a kick in the back you need a 1.9 or even better a 2.1 XUDt

I loved it when the turbo kick in with them.

Nothing, nothing, nothing, OMFG and time to change gear

If you are unsure about common rail go drive a 2.0 HDI/TDCI MK II focus or Citroen C4.

The engine is only 140PS, but the kick it gave made it feel like the PD170. Much quieter too. That should give you a good idea as to what you can expect from a CR unit in any future octy.

Dr Zoidberg · 09-12-2007, 12:17

It's not so simple to say that one type of engine means more or less of a diesel surge as either type can be tuned by the manufacturers to drive the way they think is best.

Honda's diesel's are common rail , but feel more petrol-like in use than most others.

Babs · 09-12-2007, 12:33

the whole of the VAG group will be looking to change to common rail over the next year or so

cheezemonkhai · 09-12-2007, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Zoidberg

It's not so simple to say that one type of engine means more or less of a diesel surge as either type can be tuned by the manufacturers to drive the way they think is best.

Honda's diesel's are common rail , but feel more petrol-like in use than most others.

You are of course correct, I was making the point that CR engines can give that massive thump....

Anyway I'm still a fan of IDI dervs, much smoother

dstev2000 · 09-12-2007, 13:35

Best thing to do is wait for the first Audi model with the 2.0 CR unit and take it for a test drive. It will be the same CR engine that will go in the vRS whenever that may be.

johnjohnhealy · 09-12-2007, 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Basil

The real plus is that uprated injectors should be far far cheaper - easier to mod, lol!

How much do PD injectors cost?

The Mondeo's Delphi injectors aren't exactly cheap!!

VRS195 · 12-12-2007, 02:13

I'll wait for the 3.0 CR-TDI as ABT'd in the A5

The Abt AS5 uses a tweaked version of Audi's 3.0-litre TDI A5.
Horsepower is up from 240 to 300 BHP. The torque is a tarmac ripping 442 lbft!!

Peak torque is available from 2,400 rpm, 0-60 mph in 5.3 seconds on the way to a 164 mph top speed.

cheezemonkhai · 10-01-2008, 02:26

nice

06octy · 10-01-2008, 08:01

The PD engine is being killed off as it can't meet the ever improving emissions targets.

Quote:

My Mondeo ST is common rail, you still get the big diesel torque shove in the back!

- if you've ever driven a BMW 4 pot diseasal you'll find there isn't and they feel much slower than VAG equivalents even though on paper they are quicker.

My friend who has a 523i and a 140 TDi Octy was thinking about changing his 5er for another diesel. He test drove a 320d - little bit quicker than the Octy on paper - and thought it felt much slower. Its all down to the 'big bang' of the PD engines in my opinion.

Exhausted · 10-01-2008, 09:47

PD does have a reliability advantage over common rail as there is no common high pressure pump. In the Peugeot/Citroen HDi this pump pressures the common accumulator rail to 1350 bars - approx 20250 psi. This is the pressure in the pipework leading to the injectors. This is a highly dangerous pressure to work with and a leak can cause personal injury.

These pumps are generally reliable but if one does let go then you are talking serious money. They are prone to go if misfuelled with petrol - even if tank drained and system cleaned. Absolute cleanliness is a must too when dealing with the fuel system.

If you have a company car then this really doesn't matter but if you are a private motorist like me it does!

There are some horrific HP pump stories on Ford and Peugeot / Citroen forums.

I'm an ex Citroen HDi driver and decided that the PD system had distinct advantages over common rail. Skoda housed the PD engine in a competent and cost effective way - that's why I'm here

I have to say that I am most happy with the move.

auroan · 10-01-2008, 10:55

My Dad's old 406 HDI HP pump when't when he had it. Over a grand for it to be fixed.

bahnstormer vrs · 10-01-2008, 11:14

I like the somewhat gruff growly nature of my TDI vRS (PD); gives the car some character.

Scottiepaul · 10-01-2008, 12:18

I agree on CR HP Pumps. When choosing my vRS I was very close to buying a mundaneo ST. Colleage was running one and I was impressed by its drivability and smoothness compared to the PD lump, but it never felt as quick even though with its overboost it has more torque on paper. However the HP pump went, turbo went, flywheel went and new clutch required all in a month £2.5k bill and no car for best part of 6 weeks while parts were on order. Safe to say I went for the vRS, and although it certainly lacks in refinement, it always makes me smile - 07 with 17k on, and apart from noisey rear bearings or tyres (see lots of other threads - will be investigated at first service in a couple of weeks) and the well reported part throttle judder at low revs, it has been bulletproof.

johnjohnhealy · 11-01-2008, 05:15

Well my mundaneo

ST TDCi is approaching 100k now, and has been flawless, cant say the same for my Skoda, but hey!

The mondeo may have more torque, but it's only 155BHP so theoretically it should be slower, all this rubbish diesel drivers go on about having loads of torque is cr*p, bhp is what counts!

As for Auroan's dad paying a grand for a HDI fuel pump, basically he's been turned over, I've done loads of HDI fuel pumps and they're only a couple hundred quid fitted.

Exhausted · 11-01-2008, 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnjohnhealy

Well my mundaneo

ST TDCi is approaching 100k now, and has been flawless, cant say the same for my Skoda, but hey!

The mondeo may have more torque, but it's only 155BHP so theoretically it should be slower, all this rubbish diesel drivers go on about having loads of torque is cr*p, bhp is what counts!

As for Auroan's dad paying a grand for a HDI fuel pump, basically he's been turned over, I've done loads of HDI fuel pumps and they're only a couple hundred quid fitted.

I can't believe that you can fit a high pressure pump for only £200. The best price I can find to buy the pump alone is over £600 plus VAT.

Is it fair to assume that you are referring to the low pressure pump which lives in the fuel tank? These are indeed most unreliable and £200 sounds about right.

auroan · 11-01-2008, 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnjohnhealy

As for Auroan's dad paying a grand for a HDI fuel pump, basically he's been turned over, I've done loads of HDI fuel pumps and they're only a couple hundred quid fitted.

Tell me where your garage is then. This was done at JCT600 pugeot in Bradford. The pump was just short of £700 plus the labour, which took it over £1k

cheezemonkhai · 11-01-2008, 12:28

Quick call to a local factors has me a price of just under £100 for the lifter pump and about £280 (£30 of that is deposit) for the HP pump on an exchange for a reconditioned Bosch unit.

Scottiepaul · 11-01-2008, 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnjohnhealy

Well my mundaneo

ST TDCi is approaching 100k now, and has been flawless, cant say the same for my Skoda, but hey!

The mondeo may have more torque, but it's only 155BHP so theoretically it should be slower, all this rubbish diesel drivers go on about having loads of torque is cr*p, bhp is what counts!

As for Auroan's dad paying a grand for a HDI fuel pump, basically he's been turned over, I've done loads of HDI fuel pumps and they're only a couple hundred quid fitted.

He did drive like the car was on fire having lived and drived in Saudi for 5 years. TBH i previously had a 130 Ghia X which only had one minor issue in 85k, so I also fancied a change, hence vRS.

auroan · 11-01-2008, 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheezemonkhai

Quick call to a local factors has me a price of just under £100 for the lifter pump and about £280 (£30 of that is deposit) for the HP pump on an exchange for a reconditioned Bosch unit.

Ah yeah reconditioned... this was a new one fitted, because is was that shafted it couldn't be exchange apparantly.

cheezemonkhai · 11-01-2008, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by auroan

Ah yeah reconditioned... this was a new one fitted, because is was that shafted it couldn't be exchange apparantly.

Price non exchange is add £100 apparently, so £350 as there is no exchange deposit.

Lol, makes sense to do an exchange then lose your £30 deposit

09-12-2007, 02:49	#1
birds town Briskodian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Derry Posts: 2 Members Car: 2001 Laguna Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What will common rail do to vRS??? Hi, Just had a test drive in a vRS TDi, went in thinking petrol, dealer only had diesel demo and after a short run, have definitely gone over to the dark side – never drove a diesel with such brutal acceleration (or ability to scare the bajesus out of unsuspecting test pilots ) and thanks to the Irish budget this week, won’t be bankrupted trying to run it… Thing is, I’m not quite ready to buy yet and by the time I am, the PD lump should have been replaced by the new common rail jobbie. Been reading magazine reviews of VW’s with the lump, which rave about the improved refinement and smoother power delivery – all great, particularly as I spend about a third of my daily commute trickling in traffic BUT I’m worried that “smoother” spells the end of that ‘wow’ moment when the turbo’s fully spun up and you get hurled back in the seat. I’m sure the new motor will be every bit as rapid but I don’t know if it will feel it and that’s the bit that left me grinning like a loony toon So, a question to any vRS TDi owners out there: would you be happy to trade some of that 2000rpm kick in the back for a bit more refinement and a little more urge before the turbo kicks in? Would it make the car better for everyday driving, even if it didn’t feel as special when you toe it? Sorry if this seems like a daft question, but had to ask (sooooo much money to spend just to get it wrong - could always get the petrol )

09-12-2007, 02:56	#2
anonymouse Nuts Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Greater Manchester Posts: 8,450 Members Car: Fabia vRS Thanks: 152 Thanked 258 Times in 192 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? I think, as they also say, it will be quieter - a big bonus is the injector replacement cost should be a lot lower as they will then become purely injectors and not a combined (expensive) pump and injector unit that also requires a special and more expensive oil. __________________ "Stupidity, if left untreated, is self-correcting." - Heinlein

09-12-2007, 04:29	#3
johnjohnhealy Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: UK south east Posts: 2,428 Members Car: Superb 130pd Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? My Mondeo ST is common rail, you still get the big diesel torque shove in the back!

09-12-2007, 07:00	#4
Basil Hardcore Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Bahrain Posts: 3,258 Members Car: Fabia vRS Thanks: 200 Thanked 194 Times in 151 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? The real plus is that uprated injectors should be far far cheaper - easier to mod, lol! __________________ Fab vRS - Black Magic - PD160 intake - Forge FMIC - colour coded front grille -SLC Splitter - K&N Airfilter -SEAT Strutbrace - Jabba ARB - IC Waterspray (need to wire it in!) - 312mm TT brakes - Eibach Springs - Skoda Reversing sensors - Devonutopia Tuning (tm) Custom Exhaust (2 1/4" straight pipe) - Short shifter mod- 5 brake light mod - Helix Steel SMF + Organic Clutch + pressure plate - Peloquin LSD - TD stage 2 Hybrid - Washbrook remapped ECU - Uprated injectors - Cupra bushes -Poly-filled dogbone - Allard racepipe - Pirelli Dragons - Forge Rear Strutbrace - DIY SS upper boostpipe delete -Koni FSD's - elephant pipe CCV mod

09-12-2007, 10:33	#5
Jonno VRs Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 1,243 Members Car: Octy II VRs 200 Thanks: 10 Thanked 48 Times in 47 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? Has it even been confirmed that the current Octy VRs will get the common rail diesel unit? I'd imagine it will continue to come with the PD unit until a new Octavia comes out... __________________ 06 Skoda Octavia VRs 200 bhp (Black) Coming soon: 58 Skoda Octavia VRs CR TDi (Candy White) Previous Cars: 04 Audi TT 3.2 V6 250 bhp (Black) 02 VW Golf V5 170 bhp (Black)

09-12-2007, 12:07	#6
cheezemonkhai Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15,664 Members Car: Thanks: 116 Thanked 526 Times in 487 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? If you want a kick in the back you need a 1.9 or even better a 2.1 XUDt I loved it when the turbo kick in with them. Nothing, nothing, nothing, OMFG and time to change gear If you are unsure about common rail go drive a 2.0 HDI/TDCI MK II focus or Citroen C4. The engine is only 140PS, but the kick it gave made it feel like the PD170. Much quieter too. That should give you a good idea as to what you can expect from a CR unit in any future octy. __________________ Cars make CO2 and trees absorb CO2. By driving your car you're feeding a tree and helping the environment.

09-12-2007, 12:17	#7
Dr Zoidberg Briskodian Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: On the back of an AA truck with a failed turbo Posts: 10,758 Members Car: Octavia II 2.0 TDi Elegance Thanks: 30 Thanked 195 Times in 146 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? It's not so simple to say that one type of engine means more or less of a diesel surge as either type can be tuned by the manufacturers to drive the way they think is best. Honda's diesel's are common rail , but feel more petrol-like in use than most others. __________________ Alex "I laugh in the face of danger, then I hide until it goes away" www.drzoidberg.co.uk

09-12-2007, 12:33	#8
Babs Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Newport/Preston Posts: 4,153 Members Car: Skoda Octavia vRS Thanks: 216 Thanked 139 Times in 123 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? the whole of the VAG group will be looking to change to common rail over the next year or so __________________ - Andrew Octavia vRS For Sale / Bosch Rotary Polisher For Sale

09-12-2007, 13:35	#10
dstev2000 Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Back in the Green Posts: 4,036 Members Car: 2 Octavia II's, an L&K combi and a vRS hatch. Thanks: 48 Thanked 168 Times in 153 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? Best thing to do is wait for the first Audi model with the 2.0 CR unit and take it for a test drive. It will be the same CR engine that will go in the vRS whenever that may be. __________________ MY08 L&K: Black-Estate-Diesel-Sunset Glass-MFD2-W8 Interior light-Colour coded door strips-LED sidelights and Puddle lights-VAG-COM fettled-Lovely! SWMBO's: MY08 vRS TDI - Standard

12-12-2007, 02:13	#12
VRS195 Briskodian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 806 Members Car: Octavia vRS PD195 Estate Thanks: 3 Thanked 47 Times in 41 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? I'll wait for the 3.0 CR-TDI as ABT'd in the A5 The Abt AS5 uses a tweaked version of Audi's 3.0-litre TDI A5. Horsepower is up from 240 to 300 BHP. The torque is a tarmac ripping 442 lbft!! Peak torque is available from 2,400 rpm, 0-60 mph in 5.3 seconds on the way to a 164 mph top speed. __________________ Black Pearl vRS 204PD COMBI Factory Options: ALL (bar the front parking sensors and anti-whiplash head restraints!)

10-01-2008, 02:26	#13
cheezemonkhai Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15,664 Members Car: Thanks: 116 Thanked 526 Times in 487 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? nice __________________ Cars make CO2 and trees absorb CO2. By driving your car you're feeding a tree and helping the environment.

10-01-2008, 09:47	#15
Exhausted Briskodian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Hampshire Posts: 82 Members Car: Thanks: 2 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? PD does have a reliability advantage over common rail as there is no common high pressure pump. In the Peugeot/Citroen HDi this pump pressures the common accumulator rail to 1350 bars - approx 20250 psi. This is the pressure in the pipework leading to the injectors. This is a highly dangerous pressure to work with and a leak can cause personal injury. These pumps are generally reliable but if one does let go then you are talking serious money. They are prone to go if misfuelled with petrol - even if tank drained and system cleaned. Absolute cleanliness is a must too when dealing with the fuel system. If you have a company car then this really doesn't matter but if you are a private motorist like me it does! There are some horrific HP pump stories on Ford and Peugeot / Citroen forums. I'm an ex Citroen HDi driver and decided that the PD system had distinct advantages over common rail. Skoda housed the PD engine in a competent and cost effective way - that's why I'm here I have to say that I am most happy with the move.

10-01-2008, 10:55	#16
auroan Briskoda Staff Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 2,908 Members Car: AUDI A4 B7 2.0 TDI SE Saloon Thanks: 212 Thanked 113 Times in 99 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? My Dad's old 406 HDI HP pump when't when he had it. Over a grand for it to be fixed. __________________ '05 Audi A4 2.0 Tdi SE - no mods until the warrenty expires ... yeah right... interior light pack, 3 spoke mfsw. '00 Audi A4 2.8 Quattro - Gone.... (bleeding money pit ) Audi A4 2.6 Avant (Breaking - Check out http://shop.ebay.co.uk/merchant/auroan)

10-01-2008, 11:14	#17
bahnstormer vrs Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Herts Posts: 2,685 Members Car: Octavia vRS TDI - Koni FSDs & RallyFlapz Thanks: 46 Thanked 155 Times in 140 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? I like the somewhat gruff growly nature of my TDI vRS (PD); gives the car some character. __________________ Mine - '07 Octavia vRS TDI, Superchips BlueFin (210bhp/293lbft) 'Winter wheels' 7.5J x 17" Audi S-line, Ultrac Sessantas 225/45 17, xenons, rear parking sensor, heated seats (driver's Recaro Style full leather), climate/jumbo etc., Koni FSDs, Neuspeed Rear ARB & Short-Shifter, K&N induction kit, RallyFlapZ - Colin McRae memorial decals. Wife's - '08 Roomster Scout 1.6 Tiptronic, Cruise, parking sensors Son's - '02 Fabia 1.4mpi, vRS 16" alloys, Michelin Pilot Exalto 2 195/45 16, vRS front bumper, Koni Sport shocks.

10-01-2008, 12:18	#18
Scottiepaul Briskodian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Dundee Posts: 44 Members Car: Octavia vRS TDI '07 Silver, cruise, sensors, jumbo and dual zone Thanks: 3 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? I agree on CR HP Pumps. When choosing my vRS I was very close to buying a mundaneo ST. Colleage was running one and I was impressed by its drivability and smoothness compared to the PD lump, but it never felt as quick even though with its overboost it has more torque on paper. However the HP pump went, turbo went, flywheel went and new clutch required all in a month £2.5k bill and no car for best part of 6 weeks while parts were on order. Safe to say I went for the vRS, and although it certainly lacks in refinement, it always makes me smile - 07 with 17k on, and apart from noisey rear bearings or tyres (see lots of other threads - will be investigated at first service in a couple of weeks) and the well reported part throttle judder at low revs, it has been bulletproof. __________________ ScottiePaul Octy vRS PD TDi

11-01-2008, 05:15	#19
johnjohnhealy Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: UK south east Posts: 2,428 Members Car: Superb 130pd Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? Well my mundaneo ST TDCi is approaching 100k now, and has been flawless, cant say the same for my Skoda, but hey! The mondeo may have more torque, but it's only 155BHP so theoretically it should be slower, all this rubbish diesel drivers go on about having loads of torque is cr*p, bhp is what counts! As for Auroan's dad paying a grand for a HDI fuel pump, basically he's been turned over, I've done loads of HDI fuel pumps and they're only a couple hundred quid fitted.

11-01-2008, 12:28	#22
cheezemonkhai Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15,664 Members Car: Thanks: 116 Thanked 526 Times in 487 Posts	Re: What will common rail do to vRS??? Quick call to a local factors has me a price of just under £100 for the lifter pump and about £280 (£30 of that is deposit) for the HP pump on an exchange for a reconditioned Bosch unit. __________________ Cars make CO2 and trees absorb CO2. By driving your car you're feeding a tree and helping the environment.

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