Heel And Toe

Jono · 04-01-2004, 01:12

What is it?

Jono

Mikey · 04-01-2004, 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono

What is it?

driving skill - that allows you brake with your toe and keep the speed up with your heel. Tried it, guess u need ur own track or skid pan to fully practice it

TabsTaxi · 04-01-2004, 10:28

It is a skill which MUST be practiced on a very quiet road or preferably private road. It may not work on fly-by-wire systems as found on many modern cars. It enables you to brake, blip the throttle, and select another, normally lower gear at the same time! Normal practice of course is to get the braking over before changing down, and then power away. It was especially useful on old cars with worn syncromesh. Basically you do this. Approaching say a bend, you start to brake to lose speed. Keeping your right ball of foot on the brake pedal, you turn your right heel sideways to blip the throttle. At the same time, dip the clutch and put gear lever to neutral, realease clutch, blip throttle, dip clutch and select lower gear (still braking!) With good syncromesh you wouldn't have needed the double de-clutching. When in the correct gear, move foot away from clutch, turn right foot to continue normal braking, release brake pedal and power through the bend. Easy! Without practice, you can find yourself out of gear, approaching too fast, and struggling to retain control. Good luck, don't blame me if you crash!

***Neo_VR*** · 04-01-2004, 10:56

Heel and to apparently wont work on Octys as the ECU cuts engine power if the brake pedal is pressed. (dont take my word for it tho)

fab16v · 04-01-2004, 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo_VR

Heel and to apparently wont work on Octys as the ECU cuts engine power if the brake pedal is pressed. (dont take my word for it tho)

It does on the petrol Furby's too! Tried it in my old one. Used to do it all the time in the old 106, then got the Furby and found it just wouldn't accept it. I think it is is something to do with the throttle-by-wire system. Not tried it in the vRS yet, but guess it would be the same.

**roo** · 04-01-2004, 12:05

All fabias, Octavias and Superbs are drive by wire (you can also tell by the small delay you sometimes get between touching the throttle and the car accelerating).

Lummox · 04-01-2004, 12:14

How strange, this subject has appeared on two different forums/atm ?

And it is pretty difficult/impossible to do on the modern VAG cars due to switches on both clutch pedal and brake pedal.

Good one to remember the clutch switch is you ever have a lack of power problem. If the clutch switch is activated it limits power, supposedly to make take up of drive smoother. If the switch pops out it will do the same thing, has happened to a few cars ive worked on in the past.

***Neo_VR*** · 04-01-2004, 13:24

One thing i did notice on yesterdays wales outing.. the ASR light doesnt always flash when its spoiling your fun.... and its much much more driveable with it OFF!

Ross, is it possible that the ASR button also changes the ABS sensitivity? the brakes became alot more useable and responsive with more leeway allowed before the ABS kicked in when the ASR was off.

fab16v · 04-01-2004, 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo_VR

One thing i did notice on yesterdays wales outing.. the ASR light doesnt always flash when its spoiling your fun.... and its much much more driveable with it OFF!

Ross, is it possible that the ASR button also changes the ABS sensitivity? the brakes became alot more useable and responsive with more leeway allowed before the ABS kicked in when the ASR was off.

As some people have mentioned before, ASR is for

! Seriously, I prefer driving with ASR off as it does give a much better driving experience and the ABS does seem to be less likely to interupt your brake ability! The ABS on the vRS is no-where near as sensitive as my old 16v though, which I hated.

flyingscot · 05-01-2004, 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by fab16v

As some people have mentioned before, ASR is for

! Seriously, I prefer driving with ASR off as it does give a much better driving experience and the ABS does seem to be less likely to interupt your brake ability! The ABS on the vRS is no-where near as sensitive as my old 16v though, which I hated.

My ABS came on when braking on slush earlier on in the week. It was a joke with it on I had no braking ability at all! ASR off would have helped but I was more concerned with stopping before I hit something!

scrutineer · 05-01-2004, 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono

What is it?

Jono

the name is deceiving - most drivers using the method actually use the SIDES of the right foot -you brake with the left side while blipping the throttle with the right. (trying to turn your foot sideways could put an interesting expression on your face).blipping the throttle can with practice make fast gearchanges easier,havn't noticed a problem doing it on the vRS often tend to drive like it without really thinking about it so will concentrate on it in the morning.
Also remember that the type of footwear can have a huge effect on how easy it is but would certainly agree with tabstaxi - try it off road first!
If you really want to make it hard how about left foot braking?the scandanavians do it but takes a lot to brake gently with the left foot when your used to pushing the clutch to the floor - try it and see what i mean but don't blame me(I can't do it either!)-
dont blame me for the tyre wear either!!
marc

***ColinD*** · 05-01-2004, 00:49

ECU will cut power when brakes are pressed and in gear AFAIK.

Can easily enough sit in neutral and rev with brake pressed. Pop it in gear ride the brakes gently and then try to accelerate...least this is so on the VVT.

So sadly it seems not possible, unless it can be overridden in some way somewhere in the ECU's logic. :smileyrai

**TaviaRS** · 05-01-2004, 08:50

I heel and toe and double declutch on virtually every down gearchange, have done for years. It is possible in the Octavia, no problems at all. ECU doesn't cut the power as there is no drive being applied. IIRC the purpose of it is to match the revs on a downshift, which results in smoother shifts, whilst braking.

Left foot braking is what the drive by wire doesn't like as you are trying to drive whilst braking.

the_ape · 05-01-2004, 21:30

I've heel and toe'd all my cars for years and it works perfectly on the vRS (and the other halfs 16v). However as said above left foot braking does not work (well it does but the throttle gets cut

)

However the ASTRA GSi and Mondeo ST220 both do it as well (drove both just before chrimbo) as does the Z4! so the VAG's are not alone

(however the Evo7 allows it

and is bloody good fun in the bargain!)

fab16v · 05-01-2004, 22:55

I take back what I said. I tried toe and heeling in the vRS today and it works a treat! Was having some fun today!

scrutineer · 05-01-2004, 23:00

no probs at all with the vRS and heel and toe although the box is so good its not needed but old habits die hard..
as far as the ecu cutting power had a play and it didn't do it although thought better of trying full left foot braking while still trying to run the car in (ONLY 200 MILES TO GO

)

**delcac** · 05-01-2004, 23:29

Heel & Toe, is this a new tap dancing routine.

**JaneC** · 06-01-2004, 01:58

I think it could be. Click here for suitable attire.

**JaneC** · 06-01-2004, 02:00

or here for a lovely poem on the subject.

**delcac** · 06-01-2004, 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneC

I think it could be. Click here for suitable attire.

Jane,
Do you know if they do a Corrado Red pair so I can practice my heeling and toeing on the kitchen floor.

Heel and toe indeed you bunch of

**JaneC** · 06-01-2004, 19:16

Sorry Des,

Can't find what you ask for. However, you may find a pair of these useful for dancing with.

scrutineer · 06-01-2004, 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneC

Sorry Des,

Can't find what you ask for. However, you may find a pair of these useful for dancing with.

when you refer to dancing with "a pair of these" did you mean the shoes or the blonde on the left of the page?

**roo** · 06-01-2004, 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaneC

you may find a pair of these useful for dancing with.

Ahhhh, Corrida red Stilettos, just what i am looking for.. Will go well with that bodice i brought the other day!!

big k · 06-01-2004, 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaviaRS

I heel and toe and double declutch on virtually every down gearchange, have done for years. It is possible in the Octavia, no problems at all. ECU doesn't cut the power as there is no drive being applied. IIRC the purpose of it is to match the revs on a downshift, which results in smoother shifts, whilst braking.

Left foot braking is what the drive by wire doesn't like as you are trying to drive whilst braking.

ecu does cut power by retarding igniton and injection rate and works either when driven or at standstill try it sit at a stand still bring revs up to 3k then put foot on brake with left foot see what happens!!!

**JaneC** · 07-01-2004, 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrutineer

when you refer to dancing with "a pair of these" did you mean the shoes or the blonde on the left of the page?

Er, the shoes. Didn't notice the blonde - not really my cup of tea !

Jane

04-01-2004, 01:12	#1
Jono Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Betwixt Manchester and Liverpool Posts: 280 Members Car: Octy vRS Black (of course) Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Heel And Toe What is it? Jono __________________ Octy vRS

04-01-2004, 10:56	#4
*Neo_VR* Om nom nom nom Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Manchester Posts: 12,480 Members Car: A White Car Thanks: 79 Thanked 175 Times in 124 Posts	Heel and to apparently wont work on Octys as the ECU cuts engine power if the brake pedal is pressed. (dont take my word for it tho) __________________ ColGod the UberMod ,___, [O.o] /)__) -"--"- ORLY??

04-01-2004, 12:14	#7
Lummox Cupra Bush King Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Newport Pagnell Posts: 22,461 Members Car: Mk2 Golf GTi 16v and building a 20VT MK2. Images: 2 Thanks: 22 Thanked 755 Times in 634 Posts	How strange, this subject has appeared on two different forums/atm ? And it is pretty difficult/impossible to do on the modern VAG cars due to switches on both clutch pedal and brake pedal. Good one to remember the clutch switch is you ever have a lack of power problem. If the clutch switch is activated it limits power, supposedly to make take up of drive smoother. If the switch pops out it will do the same thing, has happened to a few cars ive worked on in the past. __________________ www.unit18.co.uk Remapping Service now available, PM for details.

04-01-2004, 13:24	#8
*Neo_VR* Om nom nom nom Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Manchester Posts: 12,480 Members Car: A White Car Thanks: 79 Thanked 175 Times in 124 Posts	One thing i did notice on yesterdays wales outing.. the ASR light doesnt always flash when its spoiling your fun.... and its much much more driveable with it OFF! Ross, is it possible that the ASR button also changes the ABS sensitivity? the brakes became alot more useable and responsive with more leeway allowed before the ABS kicked in when the ASR was off. __________________ ColGod the UberMod ,___, [O.o] /)__) -"--"- ORLY??

05-01-2004, 00:49	#12
*ColinD* Site owner Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Hill & Mountains of North Wales Posts: 10,297 Members Car: Roomster Scout Images: 3 Thanks: 26 Thanked 174 Times in 80 Posts	ECU will cut power when brakes are pressed and in gear AFAIK. Can easily enough sit in neutral and rev with brake pressed. Pop it in gear ride the brakes gently and then try to accelerate...least this is so on the VVT. So sadly it seems not possible, unless it can be overridden in some way somewhere in the ECU's logic. :smileyrai __________________ ColinD 1.9 Scout Roomster - Standard www.BRISKODA.net :: Site Owner E-Mail : webmaster at briskoda dot net Got a comment to make about the site? Please feel free to use the feedback form here, we welcome your views.

04-01-2004, 10:28	#3
TabsTaxi Briskodian Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Northampton Posts: 73 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It is a skill which MUST be practiced on a very quiet road or preferably private road. It may not work on fly-by-wire systems as found on many modern cars. It enables you to brake, blip the throttle, and select another, normally lower gear at the same time! Normal practice of course is to get the braking over before changing down, and then power away. It was especially useful on old cars with worn syncromesh. Basically you do this. Approaching say a bend, you start to brake to lose speed. Keeping your right ball of foot on the brake pedal, you turn your right heel sideways to blip the throttle. At the same time, dip the clutch and put gear lever to neutral, realease clutch, blip throttle, dip clutch and select lower gear (still braking!) With good syncromesh you wouldn't have needed the double de-clutching. When in the correct gear, move foot away from clutch, turn right foot to continue normal braking, release brake pedal and power through the bend. Easy! Without practice, you can find yourself out of gear, approaching too fast, and struggling to retain control. Good luck, don't blame me if you crash!

05-01-2004, 08:50	#13
TaviaRS Dinosaur Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: North of the Watford Gap Posts: 14,942 Members Car: Merc E class & SLK Thanks: 19 Thanked 42 Times in 38 Posts	I heel and toe and double declutch on virtually every down gearchange, have done for years. It is possible in the Octavia, no problems at all. ECU doesn't cut the power as there is no drive being applied. IIRC the purpose of it is to match the revs on a downshift, which results in smoother shifts, whilst braking. Left foot braking is what the drive by wire doesn't like as you are trying to drive whilst braking.

05-01-2004, 21:30	#14
the_ape Briskodian Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Warwickshire, Midlands Posts: 221 Members Car: Fabia vRS / MR2 AW11 SuperCharger (import) Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've heel and toe'd all my cars for years and it works perfectly on the vRS (and the other halfs 16v). However as said above left foot braking does not work (well it does but the throttle gets cut ) However the ASTRA GSi and Mondeo ST220 both do it as well (drove both just before chrimbo) as does the Z4! so the VAG's are not alone (however the Evo7 allows it and is bloody good fun in the bargain!) __________________ Ashleigh Skoda Octavia PD140 L&K DSG Estate Skoda Fabia 1.9 PD 130 vRS MR2 AW11 SuperCharger (Now with added water injection!) MR2 AW11 N/A (Project Car, soon to be a 4AGE 20valve 4 cyl) MR2 AW11 N/A SR UK Model. My B Car My Blogsite My F1 Blogsite Feel free to add me to your list, just mention where your from

05-01-2004, 22:55	#15
fab16v Briskodian Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Somewhere in Herts Posts: 3,105 Members Car: Hyundai Coupe V6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I take back what I said. I tried toe and heeling in the vRS today and it works a treat! Was having some fun today! __________________ Graeme Ex Skoda owner twice over.

05-01-2004, 23:00	#16
scrutineer Briskodian Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: west sussex Posts: 1,482 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	no probs at all with the vRS and heel and toe although the box is so good its not needed but old habits die hard.. as far as the ecu cutting power had a play and it didn't do it although thought better of trying full left foot braking while still trying to run the car in (ONLY 200 MILES TO GO )

05-01-2004, 23:29	#17
delcac Still a **** Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Chatham, Kent Posts: 7,396 Members Car: A red one Images: 3 Thanks: 17 Thanked 70 Times in 55 Posts	Heel & Toe, is this a new tap dancing routine. __________________ The Red Devil

06-01-2004, 01:58	#18
JaneC Beeming Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: North Essex Posts: 3,294 Members Car: Blue Z3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 23 Times in 17 Posts	I think it could be. Click here for suitable attire.

06-01-2004, 02:00	#19
JaneC Beeming Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: North Essex Posts: 3,294 Members Car: Blue Z3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 23 Times in 17 Posts	or here for a lovely poem on the subject.

06-01-2004, 19:16	#21
JaneC Beeming Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: North Essex Posts: 3,294 Members Car: Blue Z3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 23 Times in 17 Posts	Sorry Des, Can't find what you ask for. However, you may find a pair of these useful for dancing with.

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