Project Q-Felicia

Tom_vRS · 13-08-2007, 21:33

Are you sure the camshaft sprocket isn't 360 degrees out?

pinkskud · 13-08-2007, 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeflonTom

plus anything else that anybody else suggests.. like rear arb maybe?

yer yer working on it

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_vRS

Are you sure the camshaft sprocket isn't 360 degrees out?

i've checked the vernier pulley and it's timing marks/orientation is indentical to the standard pulley...

next job is to take the rocker cover off and see what's going on, as a general rule when the engine is at TDC, the number 4 inlet is just opening and the number 4 exhaust is just closing

i've definately fitted the pistons round the right way and afaik there's nothing else that can cause this, so it's either the hydraulic lifters causing it or possibly the camshaft has been ground with incorrect phasing, i will compare it against the original cam

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoodieGuthrie

thats not good

nothing in the bottom end causing issues? like the bearing shells being thicker?

if the shells were thicker then the crank/rods etc wouldn't even turn

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 09:03

right

curiousity got the better of me so i braved out the rain to go outside and have a gander.

the hydraulic lifters are fine, i know they aren't holding the valves off because i can turn them with my fingers when they are on the base circle, so i can discount them as the cause

however the camshaft is doing something a little strange, this is a pic of the number 4 valves (intake on left, exhaust on right).. i would expect to see both valves open equal amounts at TDC on the number 4 cylinder. the intake is fully closed, as i can rotate the lifter with my fingers! and the exhaust is open (not fully open) hence the piston to valve contact when the crank comes up to TDC.

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 09:14

here's the timing mark for the camshaft, the little spot on the edge of the pulley lines up with the lug in the timing belt cover. ignore what the vernier is doing those few degrees wont make any difference (although some of you may notice that the + an - are marked back to front

)

Lummox where are you??

Tom_vRS · 14-08-2007, 09:25

Lummox has been moving house.

Am I correct in thinking the camshaft sproket makes to revolutions to every revolution of the crankshaft sproket? Saying that, my comment of being 360 degrees out is nonsense!

Nearly as bad as my dad at the weekend... I'd taken his wheel off of his Xsara to do his pads and disks, and about 1/4 round of the wheel was disporportionally dirty... his reasoning was that is the area where the brake caliper sits

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_vRS

Am I correct in thinking the camshaft sproket makes to revolutions to every revolution of the crankshaft sproket?

no, it's the other way round... 2 revolutions of the crank = 1 revolution of the cam

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_vRS

Nearly as bad as my dad at the weekend... I'd taken his wheel off of his Xsara to do his pads and disks, and about 1/4 round of the wheel was disporportionally dirty... his reasoning was that is the area where the brake caliper sits

WoodieGuthrie · 14-08-2007, 11:09

hmmm, i'd be concerned about the cam, if thats how its opening valves...

does it do it with every cyl?

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 11:11

it appears that the whole camshaft has been ground approx 30 degrees retarded when compared to the standard cam, which of course messes the distributor trigger points up completely

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 13:39

this has been buggin me all day now... refitted the original camshaft and set it to the TDC marks, just to double check i tried it both with the original camshaft pulley and the vernier pulley(set to 0)

this is exactly what i'd expect to find at TDC... number 4 inlet opening, number 4 exhaust closing(both equal amounts when the vernier is set to 0)

Tom_vRS · 14-08-2007, 13:41

So are you going to send the old cam back? Surely its not even usable.?

Jaymz · 14-08-2007, 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeflonTom

world domination

no, it's just about tuning up a felicia, going to be doing stuff that hasn't been covered before afaik, like big brake conversion, rear disc conversion, poly bushes, etc etc... plus anything else that anybody else suggests.. like rear arb maybe?

oh right wow this is so cool, so hows it going ? sorry kinda wish i fllowed it frmt the start take a while to read lol

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_vRS

So are you going to send the old cam back? Surely its not even usable.?

i've emailed them and i'm waiting for a reply at the moment. all may not be lost, i can of course make my own timing marks somewhere.... i suspect it will be something like... "oh yeah, you set it on the factory marks then count back five teeth" or something from them... the only posible difficulty this leaves me with is the trigger wheel on the distributor, but i can solve this be altering the settings in the emerald ecu hopefully

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 17:23

it really does annoy me, the whole "dont give a flying ****" attitude you get from some manufacturers... who shall remain nameless

i'm still waiting them to get back to me, and to be honest i probably will forever and a day longer....

anyway, the timing on this camshaft is exactly 5 teeth out (34 degrees)

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 17:25

so i made a few modifications to the pulley and decided to go for the 'line' at the top of the timing belt cover as my timing mark

note the chamfered edge of one if the teeth on the crank pulley

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 17:26

phew

what a day i've had

outer timing belt covers now fitted

Tom_vRS · 14-08-2007, 17:29

How do you know the timing for this cam is 5 teeth out? Where would you find that information?

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_vRS

How do you know the timing for this cam is 5 teeth out? Where would you find that information?

experience tells me that

oh and 2 dial guages on the lifters, when they are both measuring the same lift on cylinder 4(with vernier in 0 position), that is TDC, simple as that

Leeboy · 14-08-2007, 18:02

You need a patient to transplant this into now me thinks, any further along on that front?

gcr31463 · 14-08-2007, 20:00

Uber techie stuff ....
It's very educational for me.

TeflonTom .. if you get bored,
you could always stick this lovely motor in my Estelle.

Waits for a(n) (im)polite response!

TeflonTom · 14-08-2007, 22:14

estelle eh??

oh dear

you may have just gone and put an insane idea in my head

gcr31463 · 14-08-2007, 22:55

There's only about 140 Estelles in the Country IIRC
So please don't molest a good original one.

However, if you were to rescue one from an imminent visit to the crusher ...

plus it is an engine Skoda have used, that you're building.

Tom_vRS · 15-08-2007, 09:48

The conversion would be interesting for sure! Would be nice for burnouts, donuts etc!

You can get an adapter plate so you can use the standard gearbox. Just a case of fabricating some engine mounts, and plumbing it all up. Should be a dodde!

TeflonTom · 15-08-2007, 12:25

you can use the adaptor plate from a 1.6 felicia for that conversion....

anyway, i'm not going to do it..... yet... i want to fettle a felicia first, will think about estelle's and rapids some time in the future

13-08-2007, 21:33	#326
Tom_vRS Briskodaholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Fenland, Cambridgeshire Posts: 11,559 Members Car: '97R BMW 328i Saloon Thanks: 679 Thanked 436 Times in 313 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! Are you sure the camshaft sprocket isn't 360 degrees out? __________________ 97/R BMW 328i in Boston Green.

14-08-2007, 09:03	#330
TeflonTom Briskodiodion Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hayling Island, Hampshire Posts: 8,240 Members Car: Fabia 2.0/Felicia Thanks: 48 Thanked 233 Times in 205 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! right curiousity got the better of me so i braved out the rain to go outside and have a gander. the hydraulic lifters are fine, i know they aren't holding the valves off because i can turn them with my fingers when they are on the base circle, so i can discount them as the cause however the camshaft is doing something a little strange, this is a pic of the number 4 valves (intake on left, exhaust on right).. i would expect to see both valves open equal amounts at TDC on the number 4 cylinder. the intake is fully closed, as i can rotate the lifter with my fingers! and the exhaust is open (not fully open) hence the piston to valve contact when the crank comes up to TDC. Last edited by TeflonTom; 14-08-2007 at 11:33.

14-08-2007, 09:14	#331
TeflonTom Briskodiodion Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hayling Island, Hampshire Posts: 8,240 Members Car: Fabia 2.0/Felicia Thanks: 48 Thanked 233 Times in 205 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! here's the timing mark for the camshaft, the little spot on the edge of the pulley lines up with the lug in the timing belt cover. ignore what the vernier is doing those few degrees wont make any difference (although some of you may notice that the + an - are marked back to front) Lummox where are you??

14-08-2007, 09:25	#332
Tom_vRS Briskodaholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Fenland, Cambridgeshire Posts: 11,559 Members Car: '97R BMW 328i Saloon Thanks: 679 Thanked 436 Times in 313 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! Lummox has been moving house. Am I correct in thinking the camshaft sproket makes to revolutions to every revolution of the crankshaft sproket? Saying that, my comment of being 360 degrees out is nonsense! Nearly as bad as my dad at the weekend... I'd taken his wheel off of his Xsara to do his pads and disks, and about 1/4 round of the wheel was disporportionally dirty... his reasoning was that is the area where the brake caliper sits __________________ 97/R BMW 328i in Boston Green.

14-08-2007, 11:09	#334
WoodieGuthrie Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Glasgow Posts: 813 Members Car: Totally Stock:-) Thanks: 6 Thanked 29 Times in 23 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! hmmm, i'd be concerned about the cam, if thats how its opening valves... does it do it with every cyl?

14-08-2007, 11:11	#335
TeflonTom Briskodiodion Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hayling Island, Hampshire Posts: 8,240 Members Car: Fabia 2.0/Felicia Thanks: 48 Thanked 233 Times in 205 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! it appears that the whole camshaft has been ground approx 30 degrees retarded when compared to the standard cam, which of course messes the distributor trigger points up completely

14-08-2007, 13:39	#336
TeflonTom Briskodiodion Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hayling Island, Hampshire Posts: 8,240 Members Car: Fabia 2.0/Felicia Thanks: 48 Thanked 233 Times in 205 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! this has been buggin me all day now... refitted the original camshaft and set it to the TDC marks, just to double check i tried it both with the original camshaft pulley and the vernier pulley(set to 0) this is exactly what i'd expect to find at TDC... number 4 inlet opening, number 4 exhaust closing(both equal amounts when the vernier is set to 0)

14-08-2007, 13:41	#337
Tom_vRS Briskodaholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Fenland, Cambridgeshire Posts: 11,559 Members Car: '97R BMW 328i Saloon Thanks: 679 Thanked 436 Times in 313 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! So are you going to send the old cam back? Surely its not even usable.? __________________ 97/R BMW 328i in Boston Green.

14-08-2007, 17:23	#340
TeflonTom Briskodiodion Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hayling Island, Hampshire Posts: 8,240 Members Car: Fabia 2.0/Felicia Thanks: 48 Thanked 233 Times in 205 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! it really does annoy me, the whole "dont give a flying ***" attitude you get from some manufacturers... who shall remain nameless i'm still waiting them to get back to me, and to be honest i probably will forever and a day longer.... anyway, the timing on this camshaft is exactly 5 teeth out (34 degrees) Last edited by TeflonTom; 14-08-2007 at 17:29.*

14-08-2007, 17:25	#341
TeflonTom Briskodiodion Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hayling Island, Hampshire Posts: 8,240 Members Car: Fabia 2.0/Felicia Thanks: 48 Thanked 233 Times in 205 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! so i made a few modifications to the pulley and decided to go for the 'line' at the top of the timing belt cover as my timing mark note the chamfered edge of one if the teeth on the crank pulley Last edited by TeflonTom; 15-08-2007 at 13:48.

14-08-2007, 17:26	#342
TeflonTom Briskodiodion Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hayling Island, Hampshire Posts: 8,240 Members Car: Fabia 2.0/Felicia Thanks: 48 Thanked 233 Times in 205 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! phew what a day i've had outer timing belt covers now fitted

14-08-2007, 17:29	#343
Tom_vRS Briskodaholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Fenland, Cambridgeshire Posts: 11,559 Members Car: '97R BMW 328i Saloon Thanks: 679 Thanked 436 Times in 313 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! How do you know the timing for this cam is 5 teeth out? Where would you find that information? __________________ 97/R BMW 328i in Boston Green.

14-08-2007, 18:02	#345
Leeboy Briskodian Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hampshire Posts: 1,176 Members Car: Superb TDI (Octy vRS in storage) Thanks: 11 Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! You need a patient to transplant this into now me thinks, any further along on that front? __________________ Lee Want to be carbon-neutral while driving? Hold your breath!

14-08-2007, 20:00	#346
gcr31463 Briskodian Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 748 Members Car: Thanks: 20 Thanked 24 Times in 23 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! Uber techie stuff .... It's very educational for me. TeflonTom .. if you get bored, you could always stick this lovely motor in my Estelle. Waits for a(n) (im)polite response! __________________ Octy II 2.0 (?Turbo?)DI Plus some RWD stuff. Next trip from Scunthorpe & Doncaster http://briskoda.net/midlands-skoda-m...26-oct/125071/

14-08-2007, 22:14	#347
TeflonTom Briskodiodion Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hayling Island, Hampshire Posts: 8,240 Members Car: Fabia 2.0/Felicia Thanks: 48 Thanked 233 Times in 205 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! estelle eh?? oh dear you may have just gone and put an insane idea in my head

14-08-2007, 22:55	#348
gcr31463 Briskodian Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 748 Members Car: Thanks: 20 Thanked 24 Times in 23 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! There's only about 140 Estelles in the Country IIRC So please don't molest a good original one. However, if you were to rescue one from an imminent visit to the crusher ... plus it is an engine Skoda have used, that you're building. __________________ Octy II 2.0 (?Turbo?)DI Plus some RWD stuff. Next trip from Scunthorpe & Doncaster http://briskoda.net/midlands-skoda-m...26-oct/125071/ Last edited by gcr31463; 14-08-2007 at 22:59. Reason: I re-read it, it kinda makes sense now!

15-08-2007, 09:48	#349
Tom_vRS Briskodaholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Fenland, Cambridgeshire Posts: 11,559 Members Car: '97R BMW 328i Saloon Thanks: 679 Thanked 436 Times in 313 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! The conversion would be interesting for sure! Would be nice for burnouts, donuts etc! You can get an adapter plate so you can use the standard gearbox. Just a case of fabricating some engine mounts, and plumbing it all up. Should be a dodde! __________________ 97/R BMW 328i in Boston Green.

15-08-2007, 12:25	#350
TeflonTom Briskodiodion Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hayling Island, Hampshire Posts: 8,240 Members Car: Fabia 2.0/Felicia Thanks: 48 Thanked 233 Times in 205 Posts	Re: OMG! It Begins! you can use the adaptor plate from a 1.6 felicia for that conversion.... anyway, i'm not going to do it..... yet... i want to fettle a felicia first, will think about estelle's and rapids some time in the future

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