Heel 'n' Toe

ScoobyChris · 20-04-2007, 09:38

This website describes how to and why, far better than I could

Heel and Toe Downshift

Chris

andy2407 · 20-04-2007, 09:46

Is it best to try to learn this next time I have a hire car?

ScoobyChris · 20-04-2007, 09:56

If your Octavia cuts engine power when you brake, then yes

It doesn't in itself do any damage to the car and all you'll notice the first few times you try it is that it's just not very smooth....

Chris

auroan · 20-04-2007, 10:08

I remember when I was learning to do this back when I was 18. First time I did it, I head-butted the stearing wheel so hard it set the horn off and left a citroen symbol mark on my forhead.

Wardy · 20-04-2007, 10:30

Good find Chris

It's very satisfying when you get it right

Steve

***ncarring*** · 20-04-2007, 10:58

Interesting article. I don't personally know anyone who drives round corners with the clutch depressed, so it's not really comparing apples with apples, but there's no doubt if you can master it (which I know I haven't), it will make your down changes faster. Unfortunately it falls under the "two heads" category - you can't do it for IAM or Rospa, but it is a way to go faster, so you have to develop two driving styles.

ScoobyChris · 20-04-2007, 11:37

There are circumstances where it is permissible under IAM/RoSPA as it is a tool in the toolbox which allows smoothness. For example, grabbing an intermediate gear while approaching a hazard under braking, to prevent the car stalling. It would also be acceptable somewhere like on a downhill turn where the car would roll on if you went for brake/gear separation

Chris

storm monkey · 20-04-2007, 11:47

Pretty much mastered heel-toe in my old astra van and polo, for a smoother downshift, and a litle earlier, but debatable whether it was any quicker. Still learning the specifics for the Octy (only had it 3 weeks). Very satisfying when you get it right though. I was under the impression that power was cut if you hit the clutch or break, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

I'd love to get it working on my Corrado, but the throttle response is too slow at lower reves, and theres too much slack in the cable.

Phil

ScoobyChris · 20-04-2007, 11:51

From a Roadcraft perspective, the braking and gear changing phases should be separate, so by using heel 'n' toe it's quicker because you can leave the braking phase later and overlap the gear change during it.....

Chris

***ncarring*** · 20-04-2007, 11:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by storm monkey

Pretty much mastered heel-toe in my old astra van and polo, for a smoother downshift, and a litle earlier, but debatable whether it was any quicker.

OK rephrase my comment - it should make the brake/gearchange process quicker overall since you don't have to take your foot off the brake to blip the throttle for the downchange. Agree it doesn't actually speed the downshift.

andypandypoos · 02-05-2007, 16:13

interesting article, and certainly seems to be a useful technique for driving in general and not just when you're razzing about

i was impressed by their choice of vehicle

mattbeef · 02-05-2007, 20:46

Ive been trying this when i can and can sometimes get it when im not too hard on the brakes but if i need to step on the brakes i cant manage it without lifting off them slightly.

I guess i just need to keep practising at it

ScoobyChris · 02-05-2007, 21:29

It'll depend car to car, but for the most part, for a smooth change, it works best when you are hard on the brakes and have a nice stable platform to roll your foot onto the throttle into a known position to raise the revs. I've found if you're not hard on the brakes, chances are you won't need to heel 'n' toe as you could brake harder to make time to separate the braking and gear change phases

And yes, practice is the key!

Chris

Lady Elanore · 02-05-2007, 21:34

I have never been able to Heel n’ toe in any VAG TDi (yes I did use to drive like a nutter

) because of the boost dumping or what ever the management does upon braking and pressing the accelerator simultaneously. But I could do it brilliantly in my old Abarth 130TC

. No nasty turbos to blunt the blipping. It didn’t work quite as well in my Scoobys because of the Lag

I am older now and just eat chocolate and watch Soaps on telly

thephm · 03-05-2007, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Elanore

I have never been able to Heel n’ toe in any VAG TDi (yes I did use to drive like a nutter

) because of the boost dumping or what ever the management does upon braking and pressing the accelerator simultaneously.

Not that I can do this right yet ... but if the clutch is down then you can use the brake and blip the throttle in my tavia TDI ... so it should be possible.

Lady Elanore · 03-05-2007, 20:20

Pressing the brake and throttle simultaneously dumps boost and it takes a couple of seconds to build up again, not much good if you are changing down and quickly want to accelerate again. Also the heavy flywheel and slow revving nature of diesels means it’s not that much fun anyway. I have tried to heel n’ toe in a TVR Tuscan before and it was a real revelation (it revs almost as well as a bike), the only trouble being I didn’t get the hang of smooth changes in the short time I had to play with it.

thephm · 07-05-2007, 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Elanore

Pressing the brake and throttle simultaneously dumps boost.

Well in my TDI (Octavia '54 plate 130 PD) the ECU cuts the power if the brake and throttle are pressed while the clutch is not pressed (though it doesn't just dump the boost it cuts the RPM as if the throttle wasn't pressed). If the clutch is pressed in then you can use the brake and throttle all you want ... I do understand what you are saying I just don't agree that heel 'n' toe is impossible in a recent VAG TDI ... If I understand the heel 'n' toe technique properly the clutch should be depressed before blipping the throttle for the downchange ... in which case the ECU shouldn't cut the power. I'd have thought that the only technique that this ECU "feature" should affect would be left foot braking.

Lady Elanore · 07-05-2007, 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by thephm

Well in my TDI (Octavia '54 plate 130 PD) the ECU cuts the power if the brake and throttle are pressed while the clutch is not pressed (though it doesn't just dump the boost it cuts the RPM as if the throttle wasn't pressed). If the clutch is pressed in then you can use the brake and throttle all you want ... I do understand what you are saying I just don't agree that heel 'n' toe is impossible in a recent VAG TDI ... If I understand the heel 'n' toe technique properly the clutch should be depressed before blipping the throttle for the downchange ... in which case the ECU shouldn't cut the power. I'd have thought that the only technique that this ECU "feature" should affect would be left foot braking.

My 53 plate Toledo 130TDi and my 06 plate 2.0TDi Octy both die if you press bake and throttle simultaneously regardless of the position of the clutch (although I guess the word throttle should not be used on a Diesel) I would add that I think the ECU drops the revs down too.

With heel n’ toe you have to depress the clutch as the car would still be in gear, unless you are double de-clutching when you would blip between the gears and with the clutch out.

thephm · 09-05-2007, 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Elanore

My 53 plate Toledo 130TDi and my 06 plate 2.0TDi Octy both die if you press bake and throttle simultaneously regardless of the position of the clutch (although I guess the word throttle should not be used on a Diesel) I would add that I think the ECU drops the revs down too.

With heel n’ toe you have to depress the clutch as the car would still be in gear, unless you are double de-clutching when you would blip between the gears and with the clutch out.

On doing some more experiments ... if my car is stationary then the RPM does NOT dip if both the brake and the throttel pedals are pressed together while the clutch is also pressed BUT if the car is moving and both the brake and the throttle pedals are pressed for more than about 2 seconds then the RPM cuts clutched pressed or not. But I've found that those 2 seconds are enough to do the throttle blip for the heel 'n' toe (assuming I've got it right)

Barney

Yves Harlow · 08-06-2007, 11:44

I think the original article was a pretty good find Chris.

It makes the point that blipping the throttle when changing down ensures a smoother gear change. If you’re travelling at (say) a speed which would be fairly low revs in 4th and tolerably high revs in third, you can work on the "changing up and down" part to begin with. 3rd to 4th gear – the revs naturally drop while the clutch is disengaged, 4th to 3rd – a shot of throttle makes for a smoother transition. You can practise this on any straight empty piece of road, although it helps if it’s slightly downhill to prevent the car from losing momentum while you’re mucking about trying to perfect your technique!

Once you are able to do this, you can - as the article describes – incorporate braking - which will involve blipping the throttle with the outside edge of your right foot. Controlling all three pedals at the same time with just your two feet – brilliant!

I was taught by an advanced police driving instructor (although I don’t know if this is a technique taught to UK advanced police drivers) and have never driven any other way.

The method is useful in many circumstances, but being able to roll from the brake to the accelerator in order to quickly - but very smoothly, negotiate a sharp bend at the foot of a steep hill shows the technique to its best effect.

Well worth the time taken to find out how to do it!

Tom_vRS · 08-06-2007, 11:54

I don't so much heel and toe, but use the different sides of my right foot to balance the revs when down changing, simply for smoothness. Its quite simple, and as long as your not braking hard the ECU lets you do it just fine.

ScoobyChris · 08-06-2007, 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom_vRS

I don't so much heel and toe, but use the different sides of my right foot to balance the revs when down changing, simply for smoothness. Its quite simple, and as long as your not braking hard the ECU lets you do it just fine.

But if you're heel 'n' toeing under light braking, aren't you just doing it for the sake of doing it, rather than because it's the best tool for the job. An overlap would allow you to brake later and firmer, and get the gear change in before the hazard. If you are light braking towards a hazard, you must have plenty of time so you can easily separate the braking (a shorter but firmer application) and gear change?

Chris

***ncarring*** · 08-06-2007, 12:19

I can confirm heel'n'toe works just fine in a petrol Octy VRS

Agree with Chris - if you're BGOLing with light braking, what's the point? Leave it in gear, brake more firmly, and block change.

Tom_vRS · 08-06-2007, 12:29

Nope, can't do it with heavy braking due to the engine cut off with the brake pedal switch.

Yep, pretty much for the sake of doing it, just a gentle heel and toe, nice way of matching the revs for the smoothest gearchange, and overall a lot quicker than slowing to the speed, coming off the brake and then changing gear before making the manoevre.

Pretty pointless in a VAG car, it simply doesn't work, although you can slide your foot over to switch between pedals quickly.

20-04-2007, 09:38	#1
ScoobyChris Briskodian Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Andover Posts: 18,198 Members Car: Fiat Panda Thanks: 15 Thanked 337 Times in 290 Posts	Heel 'n' Toe This website describes how to and why, far better than I could Heel and Toe Downshift Chris __________________ Holding up the traffic in a little Italian..........

20-04-2007, 09:46	#2
andy2407 Briskodian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Upper Ramsbottom Posts: 5,595 Members Car: Yellow Fabia vRS Thanks: 59 Thanked 224 Times in 181 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe Is it best to try to learn this next time I have a hire car? __________________ The future's bright The future's mellow Now with a little zest of Washbrook added

20-04-2007, 09:56	#3
ScoobyChris Briskodian Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Andover Posts: 18,198 Members Car: Fiat Panda Thanks: 15 Thanked 337 Times in 290 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe If your Octavia cuts engine power when you brake, then yes It doesn't in itself do any damage to the car and all you'll notice the first few times you try it is that it's just not very smooth.... Chris __________________ Holding up the traffic in a little Italian..........

20-04-2007, 10:08	#4
auroan Briskoda Staff Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 2,912 Members Car: AUDI A4 B7 2.0 TDI SE Saloon Thanks: 212 Thanked 114 Times in 100 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe I remember when I was learning to do this back when I was 18. First time I did it, I head-butted the stearing wheel so hard it set the horn off and left a citroen symbol mark on my forhead. __________________ '05 Audi A4 2.0 Tdi SE - no mods until the warrenty expires ... yeah right... interior light pack, 3 spoke mfsw. '00 Audi A4 2.8 Quattro - Gone.... (bleeding money pit ) Audi A4 2.6 Avant (Breaking - Check out http://shop.ebay.co.uk/merchant/auroan)

20-04-2007, 10:30	#5
Wardy 207/340 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Around Manchester & Cheshire Posts: 11,760 Members Car: Skoda Fabia vRS Thanks: 457 Thanked 372 Times in 360 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe Good find Chris It's very satisfying when you get it right Steve __________________ Wardy's Fabia vRS xenons : sunroof : cruise : OEM+ "Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting." - Steve McQueen "If in doubt, flat out." - Colin McRae

20-04-2007, 10:58	#6
*ncarring* Don't talk, drive! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The B roads of Britain Posts: 12,965 Members Car: 1983 Porsche 928S / 1972 MGB GT Thanks: 17 Thanked 96 Times in 79 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe Interesting article. I don't personally know anyone who drives round corners with the clutch depressed, so it's not really comparing apples with apples, but there's no doubt if you can master it (which I know I haven't), it will make your down changes faster. Unfortunately it falls under the "two heads" category - you can't do it for IAM or Rospa, but it is a way to go faster, so you have to develop two driving styles. __________________ Nick North Wiltshire RoADAR

20-04-2007, 11:37	#7
ScoobyChris Briskodian Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Andover Posts: 18,198 Members Car: Fiat Panda Thanks: 15 Thanked 337 Times in 290 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe There are circumstances where it is permissible under IAM/RoSPA as it is a tool in the toolbox which allows smoothness. For example, grabbing an intermediate gear while approaching a hazard under braking, to prevent the car stalling. It would also be acceptable somewhere like on a downhill turn where the car would roll on if you went for brake/gear separation Chris __________________ Holding up the traffic in a little Italian..........

20-04-2007, 11:47	#8
storm monkey Briskodian Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North West Cumbria Posts: 311 Members Car: VW Corrado Storm Thanks: 6 Thanked 14 Times in 10 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe Pretty much mastered heel-toe in my old astra van and polo, for a smoother downshift, and a litle earlier, but debatable whether it was any quicker. Still learning the specifics for the Octy (only had it 3 weeks). Very satisfying when you get it right though. I was under the impression that power was cut if you hit the clutch or break, but this doesn't seem to be the case. I'd love to get it working on my Corrado, but the throttle response is too slow at lower reves, and theres too much slack in the cable. Phil __________________ My Car - 2.0 TDI Octavia L&K My Toy - 95 Corrado VR6 STORM SWMBO's - 55 Navara

20-04-2007, 11:51	#9
ScoobyChris Briskodian Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Andover Posts: 18,198 Members Car: Fiat Panda Thanks: 15 Thanked 337 Times in 290 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe From a Roadcraft perspective, the braking and gear changing phases should be separate, so by using heel 'n' toe it's quicker because you can leave the braking phase later and overlap the gear change during it..... Chris __________________ Holding up the traffic in a little Italian..........

02-05-2007, 20:46	#12
mattbeef Briskodian Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Sheffield Posts: 3,362 Members Car: Red Octy vRS Thanks: 36 Thanked 116 Times in 115 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe Ive been trying this when i can and can sometimes get it when im not too hard on the brakes but if i need to step on the brakes i cant manage it without lifting off them slightly. I guess i just need to keep practising at it __________________ I few bits here and there but im happy to Performance Torque Go on click me you know you want to

02-05-2007, 21:29	#13
ScoobyChris Briskodian Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Andover Posts: 18,198 Members Car: Fiat Panda Thanks: 15 Thanked 337 Times in 290 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe It'll depend car to car, but for the most part, for a smooth change, it works best when you are hard on the brakes and have a nice stable platform to roll your foot onto the throttle into a known position to raise the revs. I've found if you're not hard on the brakes, chances are you won't need to heel 'n' toe as you could brake harder to make time to separate the braking and gear change phases And yes, practice is the key! Chris __________________ Holding up the traffic in a little Italian..........

02-05-2007, 21:34	#14
Lady Elanore Geordie Lass Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: in the ceiling watching you..... Posts: 11,147 Members Car: BMW 1 series Thanks: 221 Thanked 231 Times in 140 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe I have never been able to Heel n’ toe in any VAG TDi (yes I did use to drive like a nutter ) because of the boost dumping or what ever the management does upon braking and pressing the accelerator simultaneously. But I could do it brilliantly in my old Abarth 130TC . No nasty turbos to blunt the blipping. It didn’t work quite as well in my Scoobys because of the Lag I am older now and just eat chocolate and watch Soaps on telly __________________ . Amanda - All's fair in Love and Car

03-05-2007, 20:20	#16
Lady Elanore Geordie Lass Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: in the ceiling watching you..... Posts: 11,147 Members Car: BMW 1 series Thanks: 221 Thanked 231 Times in 140 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe Pressing the brake and throttle simultaneously dumps boost and it takes a couple of seconds to build up again, not much good if you are changing down and quickly want to accelerate again. Also the heavy flywheel and slow revving nature of diesels means it’s not that much fun anyway. I have tried to heel n’ toe in a TVR Tuscan before and it was a real revelation (it revs almost as well as a bike), the only trouble being I didn’t get the hang of smooth changes in the short time I had to play with it. __________________ . Amanda - All's fair in Love and Car

08-06-2007, 11:44	#20
Yves Harlow Briskodian Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe I think the original article was a pretty good find Chris. It makes the point that blipping the throttle when changing down ensures a smoother gear change. If you’re travelling at (say) a speed which would be fairly low revs in 4th and tolerably high revs in third, you can work on the "changing up and down" part to begin with. 3rd to 4th gear – the revs naturally drop while the clutch is disengaged, 4th to 3rd – a shot of throttle makes for a smoother transition. You can practise this on any straight empty piece of road, although it helps if it’s slightly downhill to prevent the car from losing momentum while you’re mucking about trying to perfect your technique! Once you are able to do this, you can - as the article describes – incorporate braking - which will involve blipping the throttle with the outside edge of your right foot. Controlling all three pedals at the same time with just your two feet – brilliant! I was taught by an advanced police driving instructor (although I don’t know if this is a technique taught to UK advanced police drivers) and have never driven any other way. The method is useful in many circumstances, but being able to roll from the brake to the accelerator in order to quickly - but very smoothly, negotiate a sharp bend at the foot of a steep hill shows the technique to its best effect. Well worth the time taken to find out how to do it!

08-06-2007, 11:54	#21
Tom_vRS Briskodaholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Fenland, Cambridgeshire Posts: 11,559 Members Car: '97R BMW 328i Saloon Thanks: 679 Thanked 436 Times in 313 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe I don't so much heel and toe, but use the different sides of my right foot to balance the revs when down changing, simply for smoothness. Its quite simple, and as long as your not braking hard the ECU lets you do it just fine. __________________ 97/R BMW 328i in Boston Green.

08-06-2007, 12:19	#23
*ncarring* Don't talk, drive! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The B roads of Britain Posts: 12,965 Members Car: 1983 Porsche 928S / 1972 MGB GT Thanks: 17 Thanked 96 Times in 79 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe I can confirm heel'n'toe works just fine in a petrol Octy VRS Agree with Chris - if you're BGOLing with light braking, what's the point? Leave it in gear, brake more firmly, and block change. __________________ Nick North Wiltshire RoADAR

08-06-2007, 12:29	#24
Tom_vRS Briskodaholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Fenland, Cambridgeshire Posts: 11,559 Members Car: '97R BMW 328i Saloon Thanks: 679 Thanked 436 Times in 313 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe Nope, can't do it with heavy braking due to the engine cut off with the brake pedal switch. Yep, pretty much for the sake of doing it, just a gentle heel and toe, nice way of matching the revs for the smoothest gearchange, and overall a lot quicker than slowing to the speed, coming off the brake and then changing gear before making the manoevre. Pretty pointless in a VAG car, it simply doesn't work, although you can slide your foot over to switch between pedals quickly. __________________ 97/R BMW 328i in Boston Green.

08-06-2007, 12:51	#25
ScoobyChris Briskodian Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Andover Posts: 18,198 Members Car: Fiat Panda Thanks: 15 Thanked 337 Times in 290 Posts	Re: Heel 'n' Toe