yegnold

Hi all. Before I start the thread, I'd like to give you a little background information

I'm eighteen years old, and male. I passed my test within a month of being 17, after 18 hours of professional driving tuition and around 1500 miles of driving with my parents, in my own car. Prior to learning in a car, I had been driving on-road in agricultural vehicles since I was 16 (legally, I passed my "tractor test") and off-road in agricultural vehicles since I was 13, so I already had all of the basics covered such as clutch control, vehicle control etc - it was just a matter of getting used to the additional speed and the additional hazards, which is why it didn't take forever to pass...

I do approximately 36,000 miles a year (I live 17 miles from work, 21.5 miles from the college I used to go to, and my girlfriend lives 33.5 miles away...)

Anyway, this thread is about my dislike for being a young driver.

I am a statistic. I am one of the 17-22 year olds that has had a car accident within the first 12 months of driving - 3 months in fact. It was down to excess speed and ignorance of the dangers of ice on a narrow country lane. No-one was hurt, but the car was a write off (stone walls aren't all that forgiving...). I will say before I go any further, that that accident is the best driving lesson I have had.

Since the accident, I would consider myself to be a very safe driver. (Note that in my opinion, safe doesn't have to mean slow - if someone is doing 50 in a 60 and it is safe to pass, I will do so.)

I hate being a young driver (especially a male one), because when people see me driving around, they think I am an accident waiting to happen, regardless of how well I am driving at the time. If I am giving a group of friends a lift somewhere, people think we're pissing about, or are going to be aggressive on the road.

After 14 months ownership of 1.9SDI fabias, I now drive a Fabia VRS (which I'm sure you're all aware of as a car...). I'd like to say a couple of things that I've realised since I got the VRS.

a) I genuinely believe that I am a safer driver now that I have the extra power, and don't think that the propositions by road safety advocates to limit the power that drivers under 21 are allowed will work. Overtaking manoeuvres can be completed swiftly and without fuss in my new car, however in my old car I was very often on the "wrong" side of the road for periods of more than 10 to 15 seconds. I'm not sure how many accidents are caused by overtaking manoeuvres, but surely reducing the amount of time they take reduces the chances of a head-on collision? I would agree with the common opinion that young drivers are impatient - they are (and I am). But it is in their (our) nature - being stuck behind "one speed fits all" drivers is annoying, and I am sure that other members here will agree. But the fact that the young drivers' cars are naturally underpowered due to increasing insurance premiums, etc, means that overtaking when carried out by a young person is more dangerous than when carried out by a 26-27 year old in a car with >100hp under the bonnet, merely because the manoevure takes that much longer.

b) Again, on the matter of overtaking, it seems to be viewed as idiotic, even if carried out perfectly safely and within the law. On more than one occasion in the last 48 hours I have overtaken a driver doing ~40mph in a NSL area, myself doing ~55mph to pass them quite quickly. I have been very, very quickly greeted with a constant "full beam attack" on the rear of my car, signalling to me that they think I was being an idiot. Is it just because of the image of the car that I'm driving?!

Basically, I hate being a young male driver because of the image I've got. I know I've had an accident, but does that make me a bad person? A bad driver? If anything, I'd say having had that accident, that I am far less likely to have any collision on a single carriageway road than people my age that haven't had a collision (yet )

By the way, I'm looking in to doing the IAM advanced driving test (mainly as proof to myself (And other people) that I'm not "another young idiot") - but I don't want to go through the whole "10 to 2" lecture again. Is the IAM driving test about that, or more about "real" driving skills?

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Ed
I drive a Corrida Red 2004 Skoda Fabia vRS that has been retrimmed by the Seat Surgeons

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ScoobyChris

I replied to your other thread, but I'll try and give you a bit more info here. The IAM has a syllabus derived from Roadcraft (the Police driver's handbook). They have to operate within the bounds of the law without exception, unlike the Police. The IAM syllabus is "taught" by volunteers who hold an IAM badge and have undergone some training on how to teach people. This means that standards of tuition can vary wildly and some will be very dogmatic about teaching 10 to 2, pull/push all the time, 3rd in 30mph, etc and others will coach you into understanding when and where certain techniques are appropriate and getting you to decide. Also remember that there's a mix of real car enthusiasts and badge collectors

My advice to anyone buying into advanced driving is to question everything. It is 90% about advanced thinking and if you don't know why you're doing something then you're not really in control.

I notice you also talk a lot about overtaking. This is one of the most dangerous manouevres on the road so getting it right is paramount to safety (which is always the top goal). One reason you might have been flashed is if the driver you overtook was surprised, he felt you cut in too close in front of him when returning, or maybe he just thought you were going too fast. Who knows? Roadcraft suggests that you catch, match and dispatch and during the matching phase move out to the opposite carriageway whilst not changing speed. This means you then appear in the overtakee's mirror, you have a better view up the road so you can see anything which might compromise an overtake, eg a farm entrace, big puddle across the road, etc, and you can also see the piece of road into which you will "land". While you're sat in the matching phase, you have to decide if the overtake is safe. You have 3 choices a) yes - well what are you waiting for, get the boot down , b) no - drop seamlessly back in behind the overtakee, or c) don't know - in which case you can remain in position until you reach a) or b).

The mantra is also that you have to be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear, however, for overtaking you need to be able to stop in half this distance (to account for the oncoming car's braking zone).

Phew, that was a long post - hopefully it's of some use. In short, IAM/RoSPA isn't for everyone, but it all comes down to attitude and you will learn something by attending them. There's a few things I don't agree with that they teach (or don't teach!) but on the whole it's a sound foundation for any further training you want to undertake.

Chris

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Holding up the traffic in a little Italian..........

yegnold

Thanks, again! I ask a lot about overtaking because that is the single manoeuvre which I consider to be the most dangerous (as you re-iterated), yet it is one which I carry out quite frequently. To me, getting that right and NOT annoying other motorists is important.

I've seen arguments for and against roadcrafts' method of overtaking (I read a pistonheads thread on it about 15 minutes or so ago, I believe it may have been one of your posts that led me in it's direction), and I do have to say that their method is only really "safer", in my personal opinion, if you have the power to accelerate late. When I had an underpowered car, I accelerated early but moved out early too, giving me the increased view you speak of but reducing the amount of time that I am on the opposite side of the road whilst adjacent to the other car. I tried to move out early enough so that if I did spot another car coming, I could brake smoothly enough to not make the front end of the car dip down (which is what I consider to be a sign of aggressive braking) and make it back in behind the car that I was attempting to overtake.

I thought that if you reached option c) in your above explanation, you should go to b) regardless of if you think the situation may change?

An interesting video I found from pistonheads (which I think you definitely linked to), was someone in a BMW M5 that has done the police training, who videoed a series of overtakes. Very helpful, but I was dubious about one or two of them! (If you've seen it, you'll know what I mean by the one around a 90 degree bend...)

Overtaking is definitely something that interests me greatly - because it is a rewarding aspect of driving, which I'm sure you won't deny - and it's probably only rewarding because of the risks associated with it!

What's your opinion on the car handling courses (the ones where they put your car on those skid things that lift your wheels off the ground... I can't remember the proper name for them!)

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Ed
I drive a Corrida Red 2004 Skoda Fabia vRS that has been retrimmed by the Seat Surgeons

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Babs

Overtaking is, as you've said, one of the most dangerous things you can do while driving.

As such, it requires more thought and preparation for it.

Some people just don't like being overtaken. Or sticking to the speed limit.

Don't let it get you down. As long as you're fine, and are making these judgements well, then carry on.

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ScoobyChris

But if there's nothing compromising safety, then what's the harm in remaining out until the decision makes itself? Your mention of the PH thread also jogged my memory. There are two types of overtakes, the one I described and the "momentum" overtake which is usually used if, say, you're overtaking someone downhill and can already fulfil the criteria of seeing road, ahead, etc and there's no value in "matching" so it's more of a catch, dispatch! To be used with more caution however as the committed point will be far earlier due to the speed differential you are carrying. The benefit of the catch, match and dispatch is that you can change your mind without appearing aggressive as you don't need to brake.

Yeah I think I may have commented further on it that thread, but I do wonder if having the bullet cam mounted on the dash lost us some of the view the driver would have had. Hard to say without being in the car, but there were a couple I didn't like viewed from the angle of the camera.

If you want to improve your overtaking, then my suggestion would be to do the IAM/RoSPA course and then go out on a half-day course with a professional coach (retired policeman tend to be a good bet ) who will be more flexible in what and how he teaches. My overtaking has really improved since joining High Performance Club but that's another story!

I wouldn't personally bother with a skid pan day. They're great if you want to get a feel for low speed skids, but I think at real world speeds they don't teach you to react quick enough. I spent my money on a limit handling/creative car control day and it really transformed my road driving. You get to discover how your inputs affect the way the car behaves and feels as well as learning how to control understeer and oversteer and generally hoon about on an airfield. I did mine with Don Palmer is an expert coach specialising in car control and limit handling driving. but Car Limits is also highly regarded too. Don also used to do road driving tuition, but it looks like he's given up that to focus on track stuff.

Chris

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Holding up the traffic in a little Italian..........

KenONeill

Overtaking is "one of those things". I get the same where did he come from reactions from some people (and it's not always possible to signal, move out, then accelerate as 3 phases on the roads around here because you'll run into issues with lack of 2-lane road if you do). Frankly I put it down to lack of awareness by the overtaken driver, since if you've been catching someone for 2 miles, then forced to follow them for 2, they should be aware of your presence!

devonutopia

Big for roadcraft training. I did the day back in the summer, and it teaches you a lot. I still have an instinctive cautious nature when it comes to driving, since I had a bad accident back in Jan 2004 (double rolled my fabia in North Wales) and roadcraft helped to overcome this, or at least to treat corners differently to have confidence, yet also tackle them in a safe, progressive manner.

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ncarring

In reply to the original post. I sympathise with your views, we've all been young. What you need to strive to do is improve your driving to the point where your natural impatience is tempered with knowledge of the risks faced and techniques available to overcome them. By the sound of some of your other posts you're already well on the way there.

Re overtaking, there's always the short horn beep or headlamp flash to make the overtakee aware, if they aren't already. As Chris said, other factors include how soon you cut in again, what your trajectory looks like (i.e. is it a violent swooping movement or a controlled lane change), and your signals. A friendly wave _before_ the headlamp flash (as if acknowledging cooperation from the overtakee - even if it didn't happen) is a good way of defusing things, sometimes

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Nick

North Wiltshire RoADAR

Mort

I've always worked on the premise that as long as the overtake was safe and not reckless then I don't care if they're flashing me or annoyed with me. Some people simply don't like being overtaken.

The only time that I ever had the 'I'm a young driver and people don't like me, or think I'm a racer' vibe is at traffic lights when another such young driver pulls up beside and wants to see if his Corsa can get ahead off the lights. Most of the time you're paying attention to the car rather that the driver in it?

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Basil

Time will sort out that problem matey - enjoy it while you can!

Bas (getting on in years)

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KenONeill

- I used to love beating them away by using fewer revs, so that the car moved off as the lights went green, rather than the front tyres moving off, and the rest of the car joining them several seconds later!

TaviaRS

I love corners me (even on snow tyres ) and as for overtaking - do it right and it's almost as good as the perfect corner.

Don't worry you will get older and wiser; the former is inevitable, the latter will take effort.

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cheezemonkhai

I'm going to state the obvious, but at that age I could never have dreamed of affording the insurance on a car equivalent to a fabia VRS.

The fact that you seem to have got insurance at a reasonable price (I assume) means that you can't be doing too badly on the driving front.

Try de badging the car to remove the VRS stick on the back and just make sure your overtake technique isn't something they don't like.

I remember when i used to overtake people in an old diesel estate (no turbo) and they didn't like that sometime either. It's can just be people don't feel safe in the conditions so overtaking them narks them. Of course that could also mean that the conditions might not be safe for an overtake even if the limit is 60.

Plenty of good advice above.

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Aspman

Being a young driver isn't easy, especially if you don't drive like one. But as you say you are a statistic and for most people if they get cut up, tailgated or see an insane overtake it's normally done by a 20 something male in a hatchback with a Halfords tail and finished in rust relief.

I've never had a big accident (in a car) but I've had a bump in a car and dropped my bike, both my fault. Didn't learn much from the bump but I did from the bike, coz it hurt. Don't gun it on a bad camber in December with cold tyres

The thing that improved my driving massively was doing my bike license. You really learn observation doing that. Bike training (for me anyway) was less about passing the test and more about staying alive. Driving lessons were very much about passing the test. Still there is nothing like throwing yourself down the road at 40mph to make you remember your training.

I can also appreciate what you say about a lack of power being dangerous. Power can get you out of trouble as well as into it.
SWMBO's car is under powered with 90bhp. Overtaking has to be planned very carefully and can be made dangerous by those plokers who accelerate whenever they are overtaken.
The Octy has enough power to get past even those people who play silly buggers.

I think everyone has been flashed by the 30mph driver on NSL roads. A few more years and no doubt like me you'll have seen enough atrocious driving to care little for the opinions of the petty people on the roads.

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KLM

Have you tried the pass plus training. I did this within a couple of months of taking my test (I was 17) and it certainly got me more respect from the insurance companies. When I went to insure my first car I got a quote, then told them I had pass plus. They (CIS) cut 25% off my premium, which worked out to about £300 saving and therefore more than covered the cost of doing it.

I'm now looking into IAM. Been meaning to start for a few months but not had the time. I have noticed one or two people on here talking about it which has renewed my determination to do it.

Mark

ncarring

Glad to hear it - that was one of the main reasons for the creation of this sub-forum!

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Nick

North Wiltshire RoADAR

vrswhite

i felt like this when i was driving but at 26 i have realised now that i was a higher risk

you can't beat a bit of experiance. even now i still do some things which a more older and thus patient driver would not have done

i think the best drivers are around 40 ish years old, after that the reactions slow down

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Lady Elanore

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ScoobyChris

It's all about attitude, not reactions, imho....

Chris

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Holding up the traffic in a little Italian..........

vrswhite

old man haha

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ncarring

Best I just hand in my licence now, then

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Nick

North Wiltshire RoADAR

KenONeill