Outdated steering techniques

ScoobyChris · 09-10-2007, 12:17

Sir John Whitmore posted the following article last month which was met with an interesting response from the advanced driving community:

Bad and unnatural steering practices - Telegraph

Here is his reply to the comments......

Take road safety into your own hands - Telegraph

Chris

Loz · 09-10-2007, 13:17

Quote:

I dare say Kepler, Copernicus and Galileo banged on about the earth going round the sun, and the earth not being flat, before the ecclesiastical and scientific establishments finally accepted that they themselves had been wrong.

KenONeill · 09-10-2007, 13:31

IMO they're all wrong some of the time! Pure "fixed" steering limits you to maybe 1.5 turns lock to lock, which is inadequate for handling tight corners with a typical road car. Pure "push-pull" is slower than fixed, and robs you of a clear knowledge of where "straight ahead" is in faster stuff.

bengie · 09-10-2007, 13:59

well done him, he's dead on though

**robmawer** · 09-10-2007, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenONeill

IMO they're all wrong some of the time! Pure "fixed" steering limits you to maybe 1.5 turns lock to lock, which is inadequate for handling tight corners with a typical road car. Pure "push-pull" is slower than fixed, and robs you of a clear knowledge of where "straight ahead" is in faster stuff.

For a sharp slow corner (turning across a junction, for example) I favour push-pull as I find it smoother, for less sharp turns which require more speed I go for fixed-hands.

Everyone seems to be in agreement that two hands are better than one though...

Rob.

Sporky McGuffin · 09-10-2007, 14:17

For me the most telling thing is that he (in the second article) felt the need to insult anyone who'd disagreed with him. If he was truly confident of his position such playground tactics wouldn't be necessary.

ScoobyChris · 09-10-2007, 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmawer

For a sharp slow corner (turning across a junction, for example) I favour push-pull as I find it smoother

Push-pull or pull-push?

Chris

**robmawer** · 09-10-2007, 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScoobyChris

Push-pull or pull-push?

Pull-push but after the first pull it all ends up the same anyway...

Rob.

KenONeill · 09-10-2007, 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScoobyChris

Push-pull or pull-push?

Chris

I just used them that way round cos it's "normal" to do so. It's actually more "pull-pull-pull" anyway with me IYSWIM.

devonutopia · 09-10-2007, 16:05

Does every thread on this forum turn to smut eventually?

lewist123 · 09-10-2007, 16:18

I do fixed hands for most normal corners, but tighter corners, i favour the one hand down to 6 o'clock, push the wheel then fixed hands so i can get the extra lock. No idea what that is actually called, but I like that method... The shuffely pull-push thing is really slow

hana · 09-10-2007, 16:27

I don't think about my hands, just about getting safely round the bend. Literally and metaphorically! Best if you're not going too fast

LJ_Matt · 09-10-2007, 20:04

Ever since my track day at thruxton I've used the quarter to three approach and I'd say my driving has improved greatly for it.
Before, I used to generally hold the wheel with left hand up at 10 and the right down at 4 or 5 (or just one handed at 4 or 5

) - don't know why, this just seemed comfortable

.
Once I got used to holding the wheel on the "comfort bars" I found my general control through corners to be much improved

.
If someone is more comfortable using the push pull method then good luck to them, life would be boring if we all through the same - I'll stick to what I'm most confident with.
At least now I have both hands on the wheel 95% of the time!

ScoobyChris · 10-10-2007, 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by hana

I don't think about my hands, just about getting safely round the bend.

That's interesting - do you think if you did think about your hands and how you steer you could get round the same corner safely, but with less steering input/effort and carrying more speed?

Chris

KenONeill · 10-10-2007, 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScoobyChris

That's interesting - do you think if you did think about your hands and how you steer you could get round the same corner safely, but with less steering input/effort and carrying more speed?

Chris

Personally, I don't conciously think "what method of steering should I use for this corner?", I just do it, and only think about it in a thread like this one. I wonder if that's what Hana's getting at, or misunderstanding.

ScoobyChris · 10-10-2007, 11:17

But you have to consciously be able to use techniques, before they fall into subconscious techniques? So my question was really geared around a have you thought about the best approach and this is why you no longer think about it, or that the focus is elsewhere and steering is just steering, in which case, could it be improved.....?

Chris

Sporky McGuffin · 10-10-2007, 11:42

Something was nagging at me about the article, and I've realised what. He basically says "Everyone is different and people should not be forced to do thigns in a particular way", and follows up with "Everyone should stop doing it that way and do it the way I say".

Interesting failure of logic there.

ScoobyChris · 10-10-2007, 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sporky McGuffin

Something was nagging at me about the article, and I've realised what. He basically says "Everyone is different and people should not be forced to do thigns in a particular way", and follows up with "Everyone should stop doing it that way and do it the way I say".

Yes, and considering he's a leading coach who is known to get the best out of people through self-discovery and free-thinking, I'm not sure the approach in this article is consistent with that either....

Chris

09-10-2007, 12:17	#1
ScoobyChris Briskodian Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Andover Posts: 18,198 Members Car: Fiat Panda Thanks: 15 Thanked 336 Times in 290 Posts	Outdated steering techniques Sir John Whitmore posted the following article last month which was met with an interesting response from the advanced driving community: Bad and unnatural steering practices - Telegraph Here is his reply to the comments...... Take road safety into your own hands - Telegraph Chris __________________ Holding up the traffic in a little Italian..........

09-10-2007, 13:31	#3
KenONeill Briskodian Join Date: May 2006 Location: Normally in Scotland! Posts: 11,213 Members Car: Octavia TDi110 Thanks: 65 Thanked 561 Times in 549 Posts	Re: Outdated steering techniques IMO they're all wrong some of the time! Pure "fixed" steering limits you to maybe 1.5 turns lock to lock, which is inadequate for handling tight corners with a typical road car. Pure "push-pull" is slower than fixed, and robs you of a clear knowledge of where "straight ahead" is in faster stuff.

09-10-2007, 13:59	#4
bengie splash!!!! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: planet earth Posts: 15,256 Members Car: 4x4 turbo estate Thanks: 17 Thanked 144 Times in 125 Posts	Re: Outdated steering techniques well done him, he's dead on though __________________ owner of a skoda octavia 4xvrs3

09-10-2007, 14:17	#6
Sporky McGuffin Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Surrey Posts: 1,034 Members Car: 1993 Zeppelin R200 Thanks: 4 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Outdated steering techniques For me the most telling thing is that he (in the second article) felt the need to insult anyone who'd disagreed with him. If he was truly confident of his position such playground tactics wouldn't be necessary.

09-10-2007, 16:05	#10
devonutopia Mongreller Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Exeter / Devon Posts: 30,103 Members Car: Skoda Fabia Mongrel Images: 5 Thanks: 75 Thanked 352 Times in 295 Posts	Re: Outdated steering techniques Does every thread on this forum turn to smut eventually? __________________ Jason - Only a Skoda. Custom Fabia Bonnet Lifter Kits - £45! Click Me. Cheesy bonnet lifter video to "raise me up" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMnGECEi5Oc See the mongrel's 260bhp Dyno Video!

09-10-2007, 16:18	#11
lewist123 Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 132 Members Car: Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Re: Outdated steering techniques I do fixed hands for most normal corners, but tighter corners, i favour the one hand down to 6 o'clock, push the wheel then fixed hands so i can get the extra lock. No idea what that is actually called, but I like that method... The shuffely pull-push thing is really slow

09-10-2007, 16:27	#12
hana Briskodian Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 19 Members Car: Occtavia ambiente 1.9TD 2002 Metallic Black 5 door Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Outdated steering techniques I don't think about my hands, just about getting safely round the bend. Literally and metaphorically! Best if you're not going too fast

09-10-2007, 20:04	#13
LJ_Matt Light Jockey! Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somerset, UK Posts: 671 Members Car: Skoda Octavia vRS Mk1 Thanks: 2 Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts	Re: Outdated steering techniques Ever since my track day at thruxton I've used the quarter to three approach and I'd say my driving has improved greatly for it. Before, I used to generally hold the wheel with left hand up at 10 and the right down at 4 or 5 (or just one handed at 4 or 5 ) - don't know why, this just seemed comfortable . Once I got used to holding the wheel on the "comfort bars" I found my general control through corners to be much improved . If someone is more comfortable using the push pull method then good luck to them, life would be boring if we all through the same - I'll stick to what I'm most confident with. At least now I have both hands on the wheel 95% of the time! __________________ Regards, Matt ________________________________________________ Assumption is the mother of all foul ups Now proud owner of a Kawasaki ER-6F too!

10-10-2007, 11:17	#16
ScoobyChris Briskodian Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Andover Posts: 18,198 Members Car: Fiat Panda Thanks: 15 Thanked 336 Times in 290 Posts	Re: Outdated steering techniques But you have to consciously be able to use techniques, before they fall into subconscious techniques? So my question was really geared around a have you thought about the best approach and this is why you no longer think about it, or that the focus is elsewhere and steering is just steering, in which case, could it be improved.....? Chris __________________ Holding up the traffic in a little Italian..........

10-10-2007, 11:42	#17
Sporky McGuffin Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Surrey Posts: 1,034 Members Car: 1993 Zeppelin R200 Thanks: 4 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Outdated steering techniques Something was nagging at me about the article, and I've realised what. He basically says "Everyone is different and people should not be forced to do thigns in a particular way", and follows up with "Everyone should stop doing it that way and do it the way I say". Interesting failure of logic there.

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