The JKM Rolling Road Day

Shifty · 31-01-2007, 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevoKev

Here are a few graphs I've currently got, these are just examples of TFSI cars.

Only one of those is a Skoda. Something like 5 on here not reaching that power

RevoKev · 31-01-2007, 13:06

The tuning on the VRS and Gti are almost identical, thus both cars would see the same outputs (settings, mods, dyno, etc. pending). Thus can be used as a comparison!

Offer's open to look at a car.
The fith graph was setup on 95ron (why anyone would run that in one of these I don't know!) thus being a little lower. The first three were done on the same car same day with cool down periods, that was running 98ron I haven't got them but the stock graphs were slightly over 200bhp peak more like 205/206 from memory.

Shifty · 31-01-2007, 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevoKev

The tuning on the VRS and Gti are almost identical, thus both cars would see the same outputs (settings, mods, dyno, etc. pending). Thus can be used as a comparison!

Offer's open to look at a car.
The fith graph was setup on 95ron (why anyone would run that in one of these I don't know!) thus being a little lower. The first three were done on the same car same day with cool down periods, that was running 98ron I haven't got them but the stock graphs were slightly over 200bhp peak more like 205/206 from memory.

Kev, with respect, you are dodging the actual question. Why are the cars you are aware of on this site NOT making Revo's claimed power.

P.S. I have plenty of time on my hands, and I don't go away

"Revo Stage 2 software has been developed to attain the best possible performance available from cars with simple aftermarket performance modifications. Stage 2 has been developed for the new 2.0l FSi Turbo to use a quality aftermarket performance exhaust system. Furthermore, our Stage 2 software can be used with a de-cat exhaust for race or track use. The tuning style is more aggressive than the basic Revo performance software, and will typically yield another 10-15% of the increase in useable power. Working in conjunction with an SPS 3 Plus, Revo's Stage 2 software can be finely tuned to each customer's preference of drivability

Required Hardware
A 70mm down pipe with free-flow sports cat.
Optional Hardware
Sports exhaust system for race or track use.
An aftermarket diverter valve
Revo SPS Plus. (available soon!)"

Nope Kev, no it doesnt do what it says. Not at all. 255bhp, which still hasn't been attained by any Mk2 vrs on this site + 10-15%, we will take 10% in your favour = 280.5 bhp.

I run 99 ron fuel, and the car has been set up in "countless" hours by myslef and my laptop. It achieves 248bhp!!

Answers kev, answers

Fluffmeister · 31-01-2007, 13:22

I love the way that photoshop is actually running in those graphs as well ......... maybe that how the maps are tweaked ..... by Adobe

PS, I am extracting the michael

RevoKev · 31-01-2007, 13:52

Lol, yep... stuck them all in photoshop, if you'd like I can show you a graph with 500bhp for an Octy

Shifty, 10-15% is of the original increase not the overall power... there's not that much between stage 1 and 2. In fact if not set up right I'd expect to see less on stage 2, if only because the lower boost requests are reduced to compensate for a little more overboost from the uprated exhaust. The wording isn't great on the site in regards to that increase though!
Unfortunatley, I can't tell you why the cars aren't seeing the power. I've seen cars that do make the power, but then I've also seen almost identical cars that don't... normally it turns out that there's an issue with components in that case. In this instance I don't think that's the case, although it is all being judged on one rolling road.
Again if someone wants us to look at their car and check the software we will!

Fluffmeister · 31-01-2007, 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevoKev

Again if someone wants us to look at their car and check the software we will!

When can you do it then Kev? I have 3 days free, in Feb 12-13-14

Reffro · 31-01-2007, 16:12

Just my tuppence worth from someone who is impartial in all this. The results on the day cast suspicion on the claimed figures.

On the day, which was as those who attended would testify to, was a cool day (i.e. good for dyno runs), EVERY standard car be it a Fabia, Octavia 1 & 2's or Superb made stock or better than stock power. Therefore watching the Revo stg 1 Octy 2 vRS's ALL fail to make above 240hp does prompt the questions being asked.

I ran a Standard Fabia vRS that made 144hp at the crank once adjusted, and I don't doubt that figure for one minute. Harry's Octy 2 vRS made 201hp, pre-remap and 228hp post re-map, on the same day on the same rollers. Allied to the fact the dyno was in Shoot out mode to ensure consistency does beg the questions being asked. Its not a dig, but watching the Revo cars not make the claimed HP, made me a potential customer, doubt the voracity of the claims.

Stuart_J · 31-01-2007, 16:39

Just to stick another nail in the woodpile, our car as stock is stated by Skoda as 140 bhp, it made 146 bhp on the day with just over 20000 miles on it. On another rolling road that many allege to give higher than accurate figures it made 137, that was 10000 miles earlier so allowing for a Diesel loosening up & a cooler day it proves to me at least that the JKM set up has to be considered to be pretty acurate.

Stuart

**VRStu** · 31-01-2007, 16:46

Firstly and most importantly Kev unless you are convinced that the owners of the quoted vehichles are happy for all to the data to be made public might I suggest that you edit the registration details from those graphs a bit sharpish.

This is a subject which for various reasons I have taken an interest in and have spoken to Doug on several occasions.

As stated above the cars which are stock all make stock power at JKM - Those rollers are bang on mate and you know that. I also know how easy it is to fudge the figures with an abnormally high intake temp input into the RR calculation - oddly enough the only one quoted above on the Dyno Dyanmics print is 13' above ambient

You should also know that one of the cars in question was taken to WRC Motorsport at Silverstone which is where that car's owner was told by REVO that the development car was tested. I also know that the owner of that car has already made it available to REVO for testing. I'm sure you also know that one of the tested cars has managed to achieve a 'random' power run of 254hp when the similar cars tested at the same time made the 'normal JKM' figures so we know those rollers were accurate too and JKM were in attendance to corroborate the testing.

Doug and James were present at the pre-opening day at JKM when several of the cars were tested and some pretty meagre results obtained, so REVO have seen this first hand.

I will agree that the cars I have driven are outstanding in all ways and they actually tend to make slightly over the quoted torque (Which as we all know is what really counts) and that is not the complaint of the affected owners. The issue at heart is that if REVO claim 255hp then it must be achievable and repeatable give or take a reasonable allowance for variables on the day.

People buy on comparison and we also know that the 'less informed' may be tempted to buy based on higher quoted HP figures than a competitior. The owners who make this complaint to you have supported REVO in buying the product and have spent a fairly significant amount of money in doing so, isn't it about time they were supported fairly?

There is a theory that the car is a little too inteligent for it's own good and is able to influence the HP output at any given time. Do you know anything about this and if so is it something that can be dealt with?

RevoKev · 31-01-2007, 16:55

Fluffmeister, I'm just waiting for a response from my engineering guys as to availability on those dates.

In regards to stock cars seeing stock power that's all well and good but I've seen the same thing happen on numerous different dynos where stock cars would make stock power but modified cars wouldn't. Cars with code on are effected an awful amount more by dyno load, heat, etc. Due to the extra they run.
On most of the graphs I saw from the first JKM day you could see the cars pulling back at certain points, indicating that the ECU didn't like what it was seeing. For example the ECU will pull back (adapt) due to higher than expected EGTs when compared to other readings from engine sensors. You can sometimes see this when the power drops off lower down the rpm range and tries to pick up again later on. Unfortunatley there is no explanation for this without first explaining in depth the way the ECU works... being honest I don't personnally know enough about this.

**VRStu** · 31-01-2007, 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevoKev

being honest I don't personnally know enough about this.

Ok so you are marketing a product which you know modifies the OEM parameters but to which you can't offer an explanation

C'mon Kev, sit up and realise that these guy's are willing to work with you on this, they just want solutions - not miracles. If it can't make 255hp reliably and repeatably then you MUST revise the product claims.

RevoKev · 31-01-2007, 17:16

I'm sat up, I've also seen these cars make more than the quoted figures. We too are willing to work with 'these guys' to get to the bottom of this, be it a code revision or an explaination of why on certain dynos they aren't making the power. I can't explain this to people that do not know enough about the way the ECU works, on top of that I'm not one of the people that decompiles these ECUs and knows them inside out. Any explaination as to exactly how they do work would go over the majority of peoples heads.
ECU is load based, ECU Adapts based on signals from various sensors, with increased load (ie: Revo) they are more sensative.
At the end of the day I'm checking the dates that Fluffmeister has offered to come in to us and we'll check his car over, dyno it and go from there... if it makes the expected power then end of story, if it doesn't then we'll figure out whether it's down to the ECU pulling back on the dyno and not performing as it would/does on the road or whether the software needs updating.

RevoKev · 31-01-2007, 17:24

Dynos reposted with no reg numbers, thank you for pointed that out. Much appreciated!

RevoKev · 31-01-2007, 17:28

Fluffmeister how's the 13th? I'm on kev.hall@revotechnik.com if you want to drop me an email to organise it!

RevoKev · 31-01-2007, 17:36

Another graph from one of our guys in the US with an A3 TFSI, this is ATW HP though.

Shifty · 31-01-2007, 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevoKev

Another graph from one of our guys in the US with an A3 TFSI, this is ATW HP though.

18 BHP. Impressive.

RevoKev · 31-01-2007, 17:55

Very for a gain between stg1 and 2!

Makefish · 31-01-2007, 20:56

Blimey, it's been a busy day!.

I think VRStu has stated his views which are similar to mine and therefore wont cover old ground but I would like to add that I don't think anybody is 'unhappy' with REVO's software in fact far from it, most are delighted with it just unhappy that you are claiming unrealistic bhp figures.

Could you post those Dyno Dynamic graphs with the important data that is usually present at the bottom of the graphs, without it they are pretty much meaningless!.

Finally, I would also be willing to join you and Tony (Fluffmeister) to test my car too as a further comparison.

bengie · 31-01-2007, 21:59

the reg is still in the picture by the way, and yes i checked its right as it came up as a 1984cc 200bhp golf gti

**VRStu** · 31-01-2007, 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by bengie

the reg is still in the picture by the way, and yes i checked its right as it came up as a 1984cc 200bhp golf gti

Only 200hp I didn't think the mapping was that bad

Makefish · 31-01-2007, 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by VRStu

Only 200hp I didn't think the mapping was that bad

Was that not whp?.

**VRStu** · 31-01-2007, 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makefish

Was that not whp?.

Oh Mr fish do behave.
Try reading the comments again and see if the penny may drop.

Makefish · 31-01-2007, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by VRStu

Oh Mr fish do behave.
Try reading the comments again and see if the penny may drop.

Must I?

Pabs · 31-01-2007, 23:49

look at you two.....

WW_VRS · 01-02-2007, 00:14

I was unable to even run my car on the day, stop complaining

31-01-2007, 13:06	#77
RevoKev Site Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 214 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 13 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day The tuning on the VRS and Gti are almost identical, thus both cars would see the same outputs (settings, mods, dyno, etc. pending). Thus can be used as a comparison! Offer's open to look at a car. The fith graph was setup on 95ron (why anyone would run that in one of these I don't know!) thus being a little lower. The first three were done on the same car same day with cool down periods, that was running 98ron I haven't got them but the stock graphs were slightly over 200bhp peak more like 205/206 from memory.

31-01-2007, 13:22	#79
Fluffmeister Hai! King Rat Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: North West UK Posts: 3,543 Members Car: A black thing Thanks: 90 Thanked 155 Times in 125 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day I love the way that photoshop is actually running in those graphs as well ......... maybe that how the maps are tweaked ..... by Adobe PS, I am extracting the michael

31-01-2007, 13:52	#80
RevoKev Site Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 214 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 13 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Lol, yep... stuck them all in photoshop, if you'd like I can show you a graph with 500bhp for an Octy Shifty, 10-15% is of the original increase not the overall power... there's not that much between stage 1 and 2. In fact if not set up right I'd expect to see less on stage 2, if only because the lower boost requests are reduced to compensate for a little more overboost from the uprated exhaust. The wording isn't great on the site in regards to that increase though! Unfortunatley, I can't tell you why the cars aren't seeing the power. I've seen cars that do make the power, but then I've also seen almost identical cars that don't... normally it turns out that there's an issue with components in that case. In this instance I don't think that's the case, although it is all being judged on one rolling road. Again if someone wants us to look at their car and check the software we will!

31-01-2007, 16:12	#82
Reffro Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London Posts: 192 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Just my tuppence worth from someone who is impartial in all this. The results on the day cast suspicion on the claimed figures. On the day, which was as those who attended would testify to, was a cool day (i.e. good for dyno runs), EVERY standard car be it a Fabia, Octavia 1 & 2's or Superb made stock or better than stock power. Therefore watching the Revo stg 1 Octy 2 vRS's ALL fail to make above 240hp does prompt the questions being asked. I ran a Standard Fabia vRS that made 144hp at the crank once adjusted, and I don't doubt that figure for one minute. Harry's Octy 2 vRS made 201hp, pre-remap and 228hp post re-map, on the same day on the same rollers. Allied to the fact the dyno was in Shoot out mode to ensure consistency does beg the questions being asked. Its not a dig, but watching the Revo cars not make the claimed HP, made me a potential customer, doubt the voracity of the claims. Last edited by Reffro; 31-01-2007 at 16:14.

31-01-2007, 16:39	#83
Stuart_J Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Winchester Posts: 5,719 Members Car: Nissan 350Z Twin Turbo Also Octavia 1.9 TDI L&K & Superb td 140 Thanks: 40 Thanked 85 Times in 78 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Just to stick another nail in the woodpile, our car as stock is stated by Skoda as 140 bhp, it made 146 bhp on the day with just over 20000 miles on it. On another rolling road that many allege to give higher than accurate figures it made 137, that was 10000 miles earlier so allowing for a Diesel loosening up & a cooler day it proves to me at least that the JKM set up has to be considered to be pretty acurate. Stuart __________________ Speed is an addiction for which thankfully there is no cure Last edited by Quinten; 31-01-2007 at 22:25.

31-01-2007, 16:46	#84
VRStu Txt Spk Police Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hampshire Posts: 20,856 Members Car: Audi S3 Thanks: 145 Thanked 999 Times in 895 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Firstly and most importantly Kev unless you are convinced that the owners of the quoted vehichles are happy for all to the data to be made public might I suggest that you edit the registration details from those graphs a bit sharpish. This is a subject which for various reasons I have taken an interest in and have spoken to Doug on several occasions. As stated above the cars which are stock all make stock power at JKM - Those rollers are bang on mate and you know that. I also know how easy it is to fudge the figures with an abnormally high intake temp input into the RR calculation - oddly enough the only one quoted above on the Dyno Dyanmics print is 13' above ambient You should also know that one of the cars in question was taken to WRC Motorsport at Silverstone which is where that car's owner was told by REVO that the development car was tested. I also know that the owner of that car has already made it available to REVO for testing. I'm sure you also know that one of the tested cars has managed to achieve a 'random' power run of 254hp when the similar cars tested at the same time made the 'normal JKM' figures so we know those rollers were accurate too and JKM were in attendance to corroborate the testing. Doug and James were present at the pre-opening day at JKM when several of the cars were tested and some pretty meagre results obtained, so REVO have seen this first hand. I will agree that the cars I have driven are outstanding in all ways and they actually tend to make slightly over the quoted torque (Which as we all know is what really counts) and that is not the complaint of the affected owners. The issue at heart is that if REVO claim 255hp then it must be achievable and repeatable give or take a reasonable allowance for variables on the day. People buy on comparison and we also know that the 'less informed' may be tempted to buy based on higher quoted HP figures than a competitior. The owners who make this complaint to you have supported REVO in buying the product and have spent a fairly significant amount of money in doing so, isn't it about time they were supported fairly? There is a theory that the car is a little too inteligent for it's own good and is able to influence the HP output at any given time. Do you know anything about this and if so is it something that can be dealt with? __________________ Stu Stu's Websites - http://www.fabia-vrs.com & http://www.octavia-vrs.com Stu's Car - 2008 Audi S3 - Ibis White, Black Optics Pack, Privacy Glass, Auto Bi Xenon Headlights, Rain Sensing Wipers, Bose Sound System, Ipod Prep, GSM Phone Prep, Flat Bottom Multi Function Steering Wheel, Electric Folding Mirrors, Acoustic Parking, Cruise Control, Interior Light Pack, Non Smokers Pack. SWMBO's Car - 2008 Seat LEON TDi Stylance, Black Magic, Sports Pack, Rear Parking Sensors. Something for Weekend - A Patio

31-01-2007, 16:55	#85
RevoKev Site Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 214 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 13 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Fluffmeister, I'm just waiting for a response from my engineering guys as to availability on those dates. In regards to stock cars seeing stock power that's all well and good but I've seen the same thing happen on numerous different dynos where stock cars would make stock power but modified cars wouldn't. Cars with code on are effected an awful amount more by dyno load, heat, etc. Due to the extra they run. On most of the graphs I saw from the first JKM day you could see the cars pulling back at certain points, indicating that the ECU didn't like what it was seeing. For example the ECU will pull back (adapt) due to higher than expected EGTs when compared to other readings from engine sensors. You can sometimes see this when the power drops off lower down the rpm range and tries to pick up again later on. Unfortunatley there is no explanation for this without first explaining in depth the way the ECU works... being honest I don't personnally know enough about this.

31-01-2007, 17:16	#87
RevoKev Site Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 214 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 13 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day I'm sat up, I've also seen these cars make more than the quoted figures. We too are willing to work with 'these guys' to get to the bottom of this, be it a code revision or an explaination of why on certain dynos they aren't making the power. I can't explain this to people that do not know enough about the way the ECU works, on top of that I'm not one of the people that decompiles these ECUs and knows them inside out. Any explaination as to exactly how they do work would go over the majority of peoples heads. ECU is load based, ECU Adapts based on signals from various sensors, with increased load (ie: Revo) they are more sensative. At the end of the day I'm checking the dates that Fluffmeister has offered to come in to us and we'll check his car over, dyno it and go from there... if it makes the expected power then end of story, if it doesn't then we'll figure out whether it's down to the ECU pulling back on the dyno and not performing as it would/does on the road or whether the software needs updating.

31-01-2007, 17:28	#89
RevoKev Site Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 214 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 13 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Fluffmeister how's the 13th? I'm on kev.hall@revotechnik.com if you want to drop me an email to organise it!

31-01-2007, 17:55	#92
RevoKev Site Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 214 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 13 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Very for a gain between stg1 and 2!

31-01-2007, 20:56	#93
Makefish Ex-Moddy Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hampshire Posts: 8,277 Members Car: Golf PD105 Thanks: 187 Thanked 248 Times in 184 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Blimey, it's been a busy day!. I think VRStu has stated his views which are similar to mine and therefore wont cover old ground but I would like to add that I don't think anybody is 'unhappy' with REVO's software in fact far from it, most are delighted with it just unhappy that you are claiming unrealistic bhp figures. Could you post those Dyno Dynamic graphs with the important data that is usually present at the bottom of the graphs, without it they are pretty much meaningless!. Finally, I would also be willing to join you and Tony (Fluffmeister) to test my car too as a further comparison. __________________ Superchips Bluefin only £390 @ JKM http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/bluefinxmas2008.htm

31-01-2007, 21:59	#94
bengie splash!!!! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: planet earth Posts: 15,257 Members Car: 4x4 turbo estate Thanks: 17 Thanked 144 Times in 125 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day the reg is still in the picture by the way, and yes i checked its right as it came up as a 1984cc 200bhp golf gti __________________ owner of a skoda octavia 4xvrs3

31-01-2007, 23:49	#99
Pabs Briskodian Join Date: May 2005 Location: South East UK Posts: 86 Members Car: MY03 Seat Leon 1.8T Cupra, platinum grey, electric leather seats, mirrors Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day look at you two..... __________________ Toyota Supra TT GZ Aerotop - For Sale

01-02-2007, 00:14	#100
WW_VRS Escorted Estate Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Oxfordshire/Berkshire Posts: 9,883 Members Car: Ford Escort 1.6LX + Fab Estate Thanks: 46 Thanked 86 Times in 76 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day I was unable to even run my car on the day, stop complaining __________________ WW --->> Project Journal (pic links in first post there) Lummox'/Ross thread on Unit18 Automotive pr