The JKM Rolling Road Day

**delcac** · 14-02-2007, 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart_J

Just stop tinkering & get a bigger turbo, you know it makes sense

DanGB · 14-02-2007, 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart_J

Just stop tinkering & get a bigger turbo, you know it makes sense

But tinkering is more fun then throwing money at it

seandolan · 14-02-2007, 11:37

Jeez, I don't even have an Octy 2 or Revo but even I want to know what happened on the day, c'mon chaps!

Fluffmeister · 14-02-2007, 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by seandolan

Jeez, I don't even have an Octy 2 or Revo but even I want to know what happened on the day, c'mon chaps!

Stage 2 I will let Revo and Makefish make comments as there where some issues to overcome with it.

Stage 1, the car ran on 2 seperate dynos, and each time the car was REVO stage 1, run on the dyno, then flashed back to standard and the code removed.

Dyno 1 was at Stealth near Southam (Warwickshire), Dyno 2 was a Dyno Dynamics run by WRC at Silverstone who do the testing for Revo Magazine and all Ferrari press cars in the UK.

Consistantly, the stage 1 car made 35 - 40bhp more than "stock" and 50 - 60 ft/llbs Torque.

On the WRC rollers, the stage 1 car made 260.3bhp and we had an "in depth" discussion with the operators at WRC who where absolutely superb.

In short, the REVO quoted figures do seem to stack up, regardless of the quoted figures, you should see approx 35 - 40BHP, 50 - 60 ft/llbs of torque extra. Temperature, Car etc may change these figures subtly of course.

The stage 1 car also ran a cat back Milltek, which did ................ nothing, and a Carbonio intake which helped add a couple of BHP at the top end.

All in all, the stage 1 car drove superbly, Diesel style lazy torque and a good rush at the end.

As REVO paid for the RR time and organised the day, I will hold off posting graphs until I get the nod from them.

cheers

Tony

DanGB · 14-02-2007, 17:05

Im eager to hear the stage two findings as im wondering if It would affect me.

Makefish · 14-02-2007, 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGB

Im eager to hear the stage two findings as im wondering if It would affect me.

It will do!

Well I have given REVO all day to post their thoughts and nothing so far so I feel I can let you know that I'm fairly sure there will be a revised code for REVO StageII which will affect all VAG cars with the 2.0T FSI worldwide and will be issued to the dealer network. I believe it will take a couple of weeks to get it to the dealers as there were a few minor issues to resolve but the result is a smoother power delivery which has essentially ironed the 'flat spot' between 4,500rpm & 5,500rpm (this apparantly is most noticable in cold weather!).

Not going to comment on power figures just yet as I'm hoping to run (again!) at JKM over the next couple of days to try and replicate those results but they were significantly higher than previous so I still have some reservations.

DanGB · 14-02-2007, 18:41

Very interesting then!

I look forward to hopefully a new revision of stage 2 code. And the advertised power figures

RevoKev · 15-02-2007, 11:04

Hey Guys, good to meet both Makefish and Fluffmeister on tuesday. I'm currently waiting on a full write up from our engineering guys as to the findings. Me being out on the road yesterday didn't help, but I've been promised something official by tomorrow. As soon as I have our report on the findings there'll be a public update on it!

Makefish · 15-02-2007, 19:49

Have managed to replicate the results we got from WRC (Dyno Dynamics RR) on the rollers at JKM. It seems that the differences we have are in what has been entered for the barometric pressures which was explained to me but flew straight over my head

.
At least now we now know how the results have been so different between REVO's quoted figures and the results we had been getting so it's now up to the experts at REVO/JKM to explain them

Looking forward to this one guy's

Shifty · 15-02-2007, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makefish

Have managed to replicate the results we got from WRC (Dyno Dynamics RR) on the rollers at JKM. It seems that the differences we have are in what has been entered for the barometric pressures which was explained to me but flew straight over my head

.
At least now we now know how the results have been so different between REVO's quoted figures and the results we had been getting so it's now up to the experts at REVO/JKM to explain them

Looking forward to this one guy's

So...what does a stage 2 car run with exhaust and filter then?

mdk1 · 15-02-2007, 20:41

Also what is the output for a straight forward remap?

Makefish · 16-02-2007, 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shifty

So...what does a stage 2 car run with exhaust and filter then?

Well, if WRC rollers are to be believed then 270bhp for Stage II with TBE and EVOM Intake and 260bhp for Stage I with CBE and Carbonio.

Quote:

Also what is the output for a straight forward remap?

I would guess at around the 240-245bhp mark.

Please don't get too excited as these figures need to be verified but the fact is we have replicated them and it's now up to the 'experts' to justify these figures.

RevoKev · 16-02-2007, 16:53

To conclude on the findings from our day spent with Makefish and Fluffmeister:

First of all thank you for taking the time out to give us the opportunity to assess the software on both of your cars.

Neither car runs completely stock hardware; the Stage 1 car has an intake and cat-back exhaust system. The Stage 2 car is full Stage 2 spec.
With complete stock code the ‘almost’ standard car ran 183.7whp, when flashed with Stage 1 the car ran 218.9whp. This is a 35.2 horsepower gain at the wheels and an estimates 35-45bhp gain at the flywheel. This result and falls in line with what we expect bearing in mind that this car had the Carbonio intake and a cat-back exhaust.
One thing we probably haven’t made clear enough is that every stock 2.0TFSI 200bhp car we have had on the dyno has made over stock quoted factory figures circa 205-215bhp (at the flywheel), our original test cars are setup with correct settings for the conditions, fuel, etc. and have all had adequate driving time to fully adapt. This is something we will be putting emphasis on in our quoted figures on our next web update.
The main reason for the variation in figures that have been seen on the same make dyno is the effect of the correction factor that is imposed on the readings. This testing has taught a few people a lot about the effect the correction factor has on different cars and ECUs, some of the original figures seen at JKM prior to this being known are now believed to be on the low side due to the effect of the correction factor.

One of the main benefits from the testing we did on the Stage 2 car was in bettering the code to prevent throttle cut. This is something that only occurs on cars with highly efficient intakes and exhausts in cold weather. In warmer weather the turbo cannot move as much air and the problem does not occur. (Please note that this isn’t a problem solely related to Revo Stage 2 software, there are many other tuners that have the same issue and haven’t resolved it.) The solution to this involved some changes to the code and the tuning, resulting in a smoother power delivery.
The dyno reading of 270bhp has been replicated and proved as accurate as you get bearing in mind differences in strap down methods, tyre pressures, and other factors that can alter dyno results. That aside and most importantly the Stage 2 car feels incredibly strong out on the road.
The result of these findings will be an update for all the Stage 2 transverse TFSI codes we do globally, this will however take a couple of weeks to implement and get to our dealers. Once the update is publically available we will post a notification both on here and our website.

To both Makefish and Fluffmeister thank you again for your time and please feel free to post your dyno printouts from the day.

To everyone: Go Play…

WW_VRS · 16-02-2007, 17:59

Fair play as well I would like to add

Makefish · 16-02-2007, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevoKev

The dyno reading of 270bhp has been replicated and proved as accurate as you get bearing in mind differences in strap down methods, tyre pressures, and other factors that can alter dyno results. That aside and most importantly the Stage 2 car feels incredibly strong out on the road.

Replicated....yes, but I think you are making an assumption in thinking that it's proven!. I am not an expert but I do know there is little more to this. I am interested in JKM's 'take' on these results and also if Dyno Dynamics have any comment before posting any graphs/figures.

You also say that every 'standard' 2.0T FSI you have tested are reading 8-18bhp over and yet on JKM's rollers they have been almost spot on the manufacturers quoted figures!

.

Like we have been saying all along, the mapping is first class and highly recomended but even you say that the gain from a Stage I map is 35-45bhp, which is a more realistic claim than quoting a maximum figure.

Finally I would like to add that we had an enjoyable day with you. We both learnt quite a bit, even if we did'nt understand most of the stuff Nick was babbling on about

sko-with-go · 17-02-2007, 14:57

Mmmm,

So basically +35 bhp is a realistic claim ? not + 55 Bhp. what was the extra torque / peak torque output ??

I'd could expect 'similar' results from Morego then for less money based on their +35 Bhp claim ?

I've got my wallet out and I just can't decide which way to go

Makefish · 17-02-2007, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by sko-with-go

Mmmm,

So basically +35 bhp is a realistic claim ? not + 55 Bhp. what was the extra torque / peak torque output ??

I'd could expect 'similar' results from Morego then for less money based on their +35 Bhp claim ?

I've got my wallet out and I just can't decide which way to go

Go get yourself a REVO Stage I and ignore the quoted figures as they are totally meaningless in the true context. From what data we have, the torque figures are higher than quoted and that is what gives you the punch in the back when you put your foot down. Trust me, you won't be dissapointed

sko-with-go · 17-02-2007, 15:09

I am mighty tempted to be honest, but I thought I'd read that some on here have paid £500 as opposed to the £600 listed price ?

Any idea what I 'could' get this software installed for ££ ??

Thanks again !

Fluffmeister · 17-02-2007, 16:14

Here you go, for people interested in Stage 1, these are before and after figures for an Octy with Carbonio and Milltek catback. Bear in mind the Milltek does sweet FA other than make a bit of a grumbling noise, the carbonio is good for a couple of extra ponies at the top.

It does drive very well with the extra torque being the biggest grin factor

Standard Graph - (edit) Showing the Revo 1 figures overlayed on the standard graph - bottom curves are standard - top are Revo1

Revo Stage 1 Graph

Special Guest, Fabia 2.0 with a fresh tank of V-Power

Makefish · 17-02-2007, 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by sko-with-go

I am mighty tempted to be honest, but I thought I'd read that some on here have paid £500 as opposed to the £600 listed price ?

Any idea what I 'could' get this software installed for ££ ??

Thanks again !

Wasn't quite £500, but the only time you can get that price is on one of REVO's promotial days I believe.

DanGB · 31-03-2007, 16:59

Any update on the availabilty of this new code?

mdk1 · 01-04-2007, 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffmeister

Special Guest, Fabia 2.0 with a fresh tank of V-Power

If that was mine I would be disappointed

swmbo's feels a lot quicker than that

Snoopie · 01-04-2007, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdk1

If that was mine I would be disappointed

swmbo's feels a lot quicker than that

If you look at that graph closely, towards the bottom left, it reached such a power, a washer blew off!

14-02-2007, 11:37	#128
seandolan Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 183 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Jeez, I don't even have an Octy 2 or Revo but even I want to know what happened on the day, c'mon chaps! __________________ Sean Octy vRS: Performing Impossibly well...

14-02-2007, 17:05	#130
DanGB Briskodian Join Date: May 2005 Location: SE London Posts: 380 Members Car: Skoda Fabia 2001 1.4 8v classic Thanks: 8 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Im eager to hear the stage two findings as im wondering if It would affect me. __________________ Seat New Leon TFSI Sport. Tweaked OLD: Fabia 1.4 8v

14-02-2007, 18:41	#132
DanGB Briskodian Join Date: May 2005 Location: SE London Posts: 380 Members Car: Skoda Fabia 2001 1.4 8v classic Thanks: 8 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Very interesting then! I look forward to hopefully a new revision of stage 2 code. And the advertised power figures __________________ Seat New Leon TFSI Sport. Tweaked OLD: Fabia 1.4 8v

15-02-2007, 11:04	#133
RevoKev Site Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 214 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 13 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Hey Guys, good to meet both Makefish and Fluffmeister on tuesday. I'm currently waiting on a full write up from our engineering guys as to the findings. Me being out on the road yesterday didn't help, but I've been promised something official by tomorrow. As soon as I have our report on the findings there'll be a public update on it!

15-02-2007, 19:49	#134
Makefish Ex-Moddy Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hampshire Posts: 8,277 Members Car: Golf PD105 Thanks: 187 Thanked 248 Times in 184 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Have managed to replicate the results we got from WRC (Dyno Dynamics RR) on the rollers at JKM. It seems that the differences we have are in what has been entered for the barometric pressures which was explained to me but flew straight over my head . At least now we now know how the results have been so different between REVO's quoted figures and the results we had been getting so it's now up to the experts at REVO/JKM to explain them Looking forward to this one guy's __________________ Superchips Bluefin only £390 @ JKM http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/bluefinxmas2008.htm Last edited by Makefish; 15-02-2007 at 19:52.

15-02-2007, 20:41	#136
mdk1 go green Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Rochester, Kent Posts: 4,187 Members Car: Roomy 3 & Fabia Thanks: 167 Thanked 133 Times in 117 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Also what is the output for a straight forward remap? __________________ Mike. Mine Skoda Roomster 3 TDI in matallic Anthracite Grey MKLJK Swmbo's Skoda Fabia 2.0I Elegance in Dark matallic Blue MKLJK

16-02-2007, 16:53	#138
RevoKev Site Sponsor Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 214 Members Car: Thanks: 0 Thanked 15 Times in 13 Posts	Conclusion To conclude on the findings from our day spent with Makefish and Fluffmeister: First of all thank you for taking the time out to give us the opportunity to assess the software on both of your cars. Neither car runs completely stock hardware; the Stage 1 car has an intake and cat-back exhaust system. The Stage 2 car is full Stage 2 spec. With complete stock code the ‘almost’ standard car ran 183.7whp, when flashed with Stage 1 the car ran 218.9whp. This is a 35.2 horsepower gain at the wheels and an estimates 35-45bhp gain at the flywheel. This result and falls in line with what we expect bearing in mind that this car had the Carbonio intake and a cat-back exhaust. One thing we probably haven’t made clear enough is that every stock 2.0TFSI 200bhp car we have had on the dyno has made over stock quoted factory figures circa 205-215bhp (at the flywheel), our original test cars are setup with correct settings for the conditions, fuel, etc. and have all had adequate driving time to fully adapt. This is something we will be putting emphasis on in our quoted figures on our next web update. The main reason for the variation in figures that have been seen on the same make dyno is the effect of the correction factor that is imposed on the readings. This testing has taught a few people a lot about the effect the correction factor has on different cars and ECUs, some of the original figures seen at JKM prior to this being known are now believed to be on the low side due to the effect of the correction factor. One of the main benefits from the testing we did on the Stage 2 car was in bettering the code to prevent throttle cut. This is something that only occurs on cars with highly efficient intakes and exhausts in cold weather. In warmer weather the turbo cannot move as much air and the problem does not occur. (Please note that this isn’t a problem solely related to Revo Stage 2 software, there are many other tuners that have the same issue and haven’t resolved it.) The solution to this involved some changes to the code and the tuning, resulting in a smoother power delivery. The dyno reading of 270bhp has been replicated and proved as accurate as you get bearing in mind differences in strap down methods, tyre pressures, and other factors that can alter dyno results. That aside and most importantly the Stage 2 car feels incredibly strong out on the road. The result of these findings will be an update for all the Stage 2 transverse TFSI codes we do globally, this will however take a couple of weeks to implement and get to our dealers. Once the update is publically available we will post a notification both on here and our website. To both Makefish and Fluffmeister thank you again for your time and please feel free to post your dyno printouts from the day. To everyone: Go Play…

16-02-2007, 17:59	#139
WW_VRS Escorted Estate Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Oxfordshire/Berkshire Posts: 9,881 Members Car: Ford Escort 1.6LX + Fab Estate Thanks: 46 Thanked 86 Times in 76 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Fair play as well I would like to add __________________ WW --->> Project Journal (pic links in first post there) Lummox'/Ross thread on Unit18 Automotive progress on my car: here

17-02-2007, 14:57	#141
sko-with-go Briskodian Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 107 Members Car: Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Mmmm, So basically +35 bhp is a realistic claim ? not + 55 Bhp. what was the extra torque / peak torque output ?? I'd could expect 'similar' results from Morego then for less money based on their +35 Bhp claim ? I've got my wallet out and I just can't decide which way to go

17-02-2007, 15:09	#143
sko-with-go Briskodian Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 107 Members Car: Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day I am mighty tempted to be honest, but I thought I'd read that some on here have paid £500 as opposed to the £600 listed price ? Any idea what I 'could' get this software installed for ££ ?? Thanks again !

17-02-2007, 16:14	#144
Fluffmeister Hai! King Rat Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: North West UK Posts: 3,543 Members Car: A black thing Thanks: 90 Thanked 155 Times in 125 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Here you go, for people interested in Stage 1, these are before and after figures for an Octy with Carbonio and Milltek catback. Bear in mind the Milltek does sweet FA other than make a bit of a grumbling noise, the carbonio is good for a couple of extra ponies at the top. It does drive very well with the extra torque being the biggest grin factor Standard Graph - (edit) Showing the Revo 1 figures overlayed on the standard graph - bottom curves are standard - top are Revo1 Revo Stage 1 Graph Special Guest, Fabia 2.0 with a fresh tank of V-Power Last edited by Fluffmeister; 17-02-2007 at 16:17.

31-03-2007, 16:59	#146
DanGB Briskodian Join Date: May 2005 Location: SE London Posts: 380 Members Car: Skoda Fabia 2001 1.4 8v classic Thanks: 8 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	Re: The JKM Rolling Road Day Any update on the availabilty of this new code? __________________ Seat New Leon TFSI Sport. Tweaked OLD: Fabia 1.4 8v

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