Its going to far

lozgti · 04-08-2008, 16:34

MPs say green tax on cars must go further | UK | Reuters

I'm sure there are a few of you who are green

To be honest I think we are getting to the stage where we are taking this country back 50 years in time.

Lightbulbs that you can't see by.

Cars virtually being taken off our roads (except for the very worst 'eco' ones which are everything I despise about modern rubbish cars)

What the heck is wrong with the country and indeed the EU?Sick to the back teeth of the green thing which I see as nothing more than a Tax raising ,unprovable myth

(That article really miffed me)

yegnold · 04-08-2008, 16:52

How many of these MPs drive green cars? Oh yeah, they don't, because they claim £1,000,0000,000 a year in expenses as driving to work in an expensive car is a necessary expense.

C***s.

Fezboy · 04-08-2008, 19:00

This country is a $**T hole

What's the point in me working my A$$ off every day for a bunch of overpaid children to come up with new stealth taxes

The £110 fine for overfilling your bin - Telegraph

I wonder how many people are going to start fly binning

Conshine · 04-08-2008, 20:47

Gordon Brown drives a Toyota Prius I understand; a car which despite its 'eco' credentials involves one of the filthiest anti eco polluting processes to produce in motor car history. Now people are being shafted by him and Darling because of decisions they made years ago. Talk about double standards.

Takes the mick really, it's wrong to tax older cars with this new system.

I for one am lucky as I have a Diesel so the tax only goes up £5 which is normal, I feel sorry for the people who have the older cars that just simply can't afford a newer model.

daiking · 04-08-2008, 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conshine

Gordon Brown drives a Toyota Prius I understand; a car which despite its 'eco' credentials involves one of the filthiest anti eco polluting processes to produce in motor car history.

Gordon Brown went blind from wanking too much and hence cannot drive

what car does Gordon Brown drive?

Conshine · 04-08-2008, 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by daiking

Gordon Brown went blind from wanking too much and hence cannot drive

what car does Gordon Brown drive?

True......I would think it would be his wife then?

gadgetman · 04-08-2008, 22:10

Makes me mad that the 2 twonks deciding to screw us over dont drive themselves. Darling doesnt even hold a license IIRC.

And as we pay for their 5 litre ministerial jags, dont really give a crap.

And dont even get me started on photo op cameron who rides a bike, with his MP jag and police protection following behind.

Cnuts the lot of them.

Captain Scarlet · 04-08-2008, 22:14

Really P!££$$ me off this. Don't they realise that cars that'll be in the higher tax bands drive them out off nessecity, ie people who live in the hills where gritters don't go and snow is likely, or familys with people carries. Would they rather they buy two 'green' cars instead and have extra cars on the road?

Babs · 04-08-2008, 22:20

I should re-name the thread I started to "How To Kill Gordon Brown?". Cnut

Blade404 · 04-08-2008, 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babs

I should re-name the thread I started to "How To Kill Gordon Brown?". Cnut

Easy, just get him to visit York then once inside the walls shoot him with a crossbow.. all legal as well apparently...

Babs · 04-08-2008, 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blade404

Easy, just get him to visit York then once inside the walls shoot him with a crossbow.. all legal as well apparently...

I've got a mate with a cross-bow...

I have a cunning plan!

Tomo1971 · 04-08-2008, 22:34

Ill add my two penneth to this.

£455 road tax on a Range Rover HSE costing £60k plus isnt really going to stop a toff buying it is it? Nor is £150 to fill it up. Yet a car that is run by a family man earning an average wage (whether it be a 4x4 or not) could still be taxed £455 a year.

I dont know what, but something does need to be done to address that imbalance. Especially for those whos cars are older and they made the buying choice without todays information (whether that be right or wrong information).

An incentive needs to be offered to persuade the owners (Mr Average earnings man) of the higher taxed cars (over 7 years old) to change, at minimal cost to that owner. This could be paid for by those that insist on buying higher emmission/low economy cars when they dont have a need for them.

Whether or not the global warming thing is a scam or not, the one thing that is fact is that the oil will run out and it will run out soon. These silly tw&ts driving round in 4.0L range rovers, 5.6L Porsches as if they own the world do need to be stopped. You can have a car that is comfortable and respected without using 10 miles to the gallon for the trip inside the M25.

Steve

Babs · 04-08-2008, 22:48

My Dad's 2.0 Mondeo Auto will be £400

It's just f*cking stupid

cheezemonkhai · 04-08-2008, 22:50

Don't you know engine size is proportional to `perceived` penis size and mpg is inversely proportional to `perceived` penis size

FWIW if a 2.0 mondy auto puts out the same as a 911 turbo, then really it's a pretty dirty car and people should be encouraged to exchange the car for a newer model.

I'd think an incentive paid for by a large showroom tax on the new `polluting` cars would do this.

Blade404 · 04-08-2008, 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomo1971

Ill add my two penneth to this.

Whether or not the global warming thing is a scam or not, the one thing that is fact is that the oil will run out and it will run out soon. These silly tw&ts driving round in 4.0L range rovers, 5.6L Porsches as if they own the world do need to be stopped. You can have a car that is comfortable and respected without using 10 miles to the gallon for the trip inside the M25.

Steve

Oil running out... might wanna read this..Sustainable oil and not just take in everything the media say.

As for people driving around in Porsches and Range Rovers well thats down to freedom of choice, who are you or I to dictate what they can/can't do with their money?

Babs · 05-08-2008, 00:09

I'd agree with what Blade says... and that oil argument is irrelevant if the government would put plans for sustainable/renewable sources into practice... but they wouldn't get fuel duty from that, would they?

Captain Scarlet · 05-08-2008, 06:40

Good read that. And as Babs has ssaid the government won't get their fuel duty money , and shockingly might have to reduce their expense accounts.

rurwin · 05-08-2008, 13:34

If anyone is interested, the full report is available here, and it makes even more fascinating reading.

While I would shy away from a £1,800 top rate of VED, they make very good points about disabled and rural people needing subsidies, and that the money received ought to be hypothecated into public transport and environmental research and projects.

ap0gee · 05-08-2008, 13:41

To add to the 'dirty Prius' point, when will the government realise that the greenest car is one that hasn't been built yet? Seeing how making a car damages the environment far more than driving it ever can, where's the logic in incentivising people to get rid of perfectly adequate cars just because they produce a little more CO2 than a new one? And don't even get me started on the electric car farce...

BTW, did anyone see Channel 4's Ofcom-enforced apology over 'The Great Climate Change Swindle'? Seems some of the boffins complained about having their remarks taken out of context. Surely if 'global warming' was as definitely man-made as these people reckon, there wouldn't be any scope for twisting their words (if, of course, that is what happened???)

Sporky McGuffin · 05-08-2008, 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by ap0gee

BTW, did anyone see Channel 4's Ofcom-enforced apology over 'The Great Climate Change Swindle'? Seems some of the boffins complained about having their remarks taken out of context. Surely if 'global warming' was as definitely man-made as these people reckon, there wouldn't be any scope for twisting their words (if, of course, that is what happened???)

Most of them are scientists, not media-savvy politicians. A talented interviewer wouldn't find it hard to get them to say something that, taken out of context, appears to contrary to their true position.

ap0gee · 05-08-2008, 14:00

Maybe. Doesn't make any less convinced that the global warming 'industry' has over-inflated mankind's effect on the planet. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should make an effort to use as few resources as possible and waste / pollute as little as possible for future generations as much as anything else, however I don't think the global warming 'bogeyman' and all the companies that have jumped on the bandwagon are the moral or ethical way of doing it.

At risk of pulling things even further off-topic, I followed a Sky van that declared that Mr Murdoch's spawn was a CarbonNeutral (R) company. I'm sure the offices etc. that are directly run by Sky could be powered 'carbon-neutrally', but do they seriously believe that all the film studios that produce their content, and not forgetting the business of launching and maintaining the communications satellites without which Sky would be nothing produce no more CO2 than is offset by whatever means they offset it. I don't think so! And seeing how there's the little (R) symbol, presumably someone's profiting from supporting Sky claims to be green.

It's all a con...

Babs · 05-08-2008, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ap0gee

It's all a con...

Exactly... so why should we be paying for it?

rurwin · 05-08-2008, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ap0gee

making a car damages the environment far more than driving it ever can

Quote:

Originally Posted by CEO of Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders

The general estimate that we have been using is that around 85 per cent of the lifetime carbon emissions of a vehicle will be in the in use phase. Approximately ten per cent will be in manufacture and five per cent in disposal. We produce an annual sustainability report where we monitor energy use in the production of vehicles manufactured in the UK. Since 2001, energy used in the manufacture has halved.

Granted that energy expenditure is only part of the damage to the environment.

------

Another couple of nice quotes from the report:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Select Committee on Environmental Audit

The tax disc was introduced in 1920, and the tax charged at a graduated rate of £1 per horsepower.

It seems to me that the level is about that now, although the increased power output of cars and the massive inflation in the last 88 years makes it fairly meaningless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Select Committee on Environmental Audit

We were disappointed that the Treasury had not modelled what impact the rebanding of existing cars will have on carbon emissions. Presumably this means the Treasury does not have any idea of what levels of VED will either persuade people to trade in their existing cars sooner than they would otherwise, or choose a more efficient model when they next come to buy a second-hand car. This is particularly surprising given the Exchequer Secretary told us the changes to VED in the Budget were primarily made for environmental purposes.[25] We recommend the Treasury urgently carry out and publish research on the impacts that these and other potential changes to VED would make to the second-hand car market, and resultant carbon emissions.

Ouch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Select Committee on Environmental Audit

21. The Treasury also states that around half of households in the lowest 20% of incomes pay no VED.[18] However, according to the House of Commons Library, there is no comprehensive data on VED rates by income.[19] On 10 July, the Financial Secretary was asked what proportion of the 9.4 million cars that are projected to be taxed more heavily as a result of these changes would be owned by low-income households. She replied: "Clearly, low-income families who have motor vehicles will be among those affected, but I do not have exact figures […]"[20]

22. It is important to ensure that the changes made to VED are not perceived as unfair or regressive. Demonstrating this would help to defend the credentials of VED as a form of green taxation, and defend the concept of green taxes more generally. We recommend the Treasury publish a detailed analysis of the financial effects of VED on different income distributions so that the impact of any future changes to VED can be more easily understood.

23. We welcome the fact that those on higher rate disability benefit are exempt from paying VED, and can have their cars paid for them through the Motability scheme. However, we are concerned that this will leave many people, who do not qualify for the higher rate disability benefit, still having to pay VED; many of this group may need a larger vehicle to accommodate wheelchairs or medical equipment. We recommend that the Treasury urgently reviews the impacts of VED changes on disabled people and their carers, and takes steps to ensure they are not financially disadvantaged. In particular, we recommend the Treasury considers extending the exemption on paying VED to all recipients of disability benefit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Select Committee on Environmental Audit

If we are to make the kind of progress in cutting carbon emissions compatible with our target of holding global warming to 2C, and if we are to cope with the upheavals brought about by increasing oil prices, we need to make step-changes in policy and technology. The obvious implications are that, complementing the use of VED to shift the market towards more efficient cars, the Government should do much more to accelerate the development of new vehicle technology (such as hybrids and fully electric cars); improve public transport nationally; and encourage the growth of car-sharing clubs and schemes, especially for groups that are particularly car-dependent, such as the elderly, disabled, large families, and those in rural areas.

ap0gee · 05-08-2008, 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by CEO of Society of Motor Manufacturers and traders

The general estimate that we have been using is that around 85 per cent of the lifetime carbon emissions of a vehicle will be in the in use phase.

Well, he would say that wouldn't he, as he's banking on people being fooled into buying his members' new 'greener' cars on the pretence that they're helping the environment. I bet that only covers the car factories themselves and doesn't include emissions from ore mining, blast furnaces, petchem production, transport of components and finshed cars...

Quote:

Orig

04-08-2008, 16:34	#1
lozgti Briskodian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: midlands Posts: 5,719 Members Car: Thanks: 10 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Its going too far MPs say green tax on cars must go further \| UK \| Reuters I'm sure there are a few of you who are green To be honest I think we are getting to the stage where we are taking this country back 50 years in time. Lightbulbs that you can't see by. Cars virtually being taken off our roads (except for the very worst 'eco' ones which are everything I despise about modern rubbish cars) What the heck is wrong with the country and indeed the EU?Sick to the back teeth of the green thing which I see as nothing more than a Tax raising ,unprovable myth (That article really miffed me) Last edited by lozgti; 06-08-2008 at 08:41.

04-08-2008, 19:00	#3
Fezboy Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Watford Posts: 2,474 Members Car: Mondeo 2.2TDCI Thanks: 21 Thanked 122 Times in 116 Posts	Re: Its going to far This country is a $T hole What's the point in me working my A$$ off every day for a bunch of overpaid children to come up with new stealth taxes The £110 fine for overfilling your bin - Telegraph I wonder how many people are going to start fly binning __________________ Octavia VRs SOLD** The futures somkey! The futures diesel

04-08-2008, 20:47	#4
Conshine Ho Ho Ho Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Ashford, Kent Posts: 1,904 Members Car: Silver Fabia vRS Thanks: 102 Thanked 56 Times in 56 Posts	Re: Its going to far Gordon Brown drives a Toyota Prius I understand; a car which despite its 'eco' credentials involves one of the filthiest anti eco polluting processes to produce in motor car history. Now people are being shafted by him and Darling because of decisions they made years ago. Talk about double standards. Takes the mick really, it's wrong to tax older cars with this new system. I for one am lucky as I have a Diesel so the tax only goes up £5 which is normal, I feel sorry for the people who have the older cars that just simply can't afford a newer model. __________________ Ben

04-08-2008, 22:10	#7
gadgetman Go Gadget Octy! Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 3,400 Members Car: Thanks: 220 Thanked 117 Times in 110 Posts	Re: Its going to far Makes me mad that the 2 twonks deciding to screw us over dont drive themselves. Darling doesnt even hold a license IIRC. And as we pay for their 5 litre ministerial jags, dont really give a crap. And dont even get me started on photo op cameron who rides a bike, with his MP jag and police protection following behind. Cnuts the lot of them. __________________ Lick the window of life Why not join the Briskoda Last.fm group?

04-08-2008, 22:14	#8
Captain Scarlet Proud new Dad Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Carlisle, Cumbria Posts: 2,871 Members Car: Octavia vRS TDi Thanks: 165 Thanked 159 Times in 150 Posts	Re: Its going to far Really P!££$$ me off this. Don't they realise that cars that'll be in the higher tax bands drive them out off nessecity, ie people who live in the hills where gritters don't go and snow is likely, or familys with people carries. Would they rather they buy two 'green' cars instead and have extra cars on the road? __________________ Running on the fuel of Satan....

04-08-2008, 22:20	#9
Babs Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Newport/Preston Posts: 4,153 Members Car: Skoda Octavia vRS Thanks: 216 Thanked 139 Times in 123 Posts	Re: Its going to far I should re-name the thread I started to "How To Kill Gordon Brown?". Cnut __________________ - Andrew Octavia vRS For Sale / Bosch Rotary Polisher For Sale

04-08-2008, 22:34	#12
Tomo1971 Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Fife, Scotland Posts: 586 Members Car: Octy MkII vRS TDi Thanks: 13 Thanked 37 Times in 36 Posts	Re: Its going to far Ill add my two penneth to this. £455 road tax on a Range Rover HSE costing £60k plus isnt really going to stop a toff buying it is it? Nor is £150 to fill it up. Yet a car that is run by a family man earning an average wage (whether it be a 4x4 or not) could still be taxed £455 a year. I dont know what, but something does need to be done to address that imbalance. Especially for those whos cars are older and they made the buying choice without todays information (whether that be right or wrong information). An incentive needs to be offered to persuade the owners (Mr Average earnings man) of the higher taxed cars (over 7 years old) to change, at minimal cost to that owner. This could be paid for by those that insist on buying higher emmission/low economy cars when they dont have a need for them. Whether or not the global warming thing is a scam or not, the one thing that is fact is that the oil will run out and it will run out soon. These silly tw&ts driving round in 4.0L range rovers, 5.6L Porsches as if they own the world do need to be stopped. You can have a car that is comfortable and respected without using 10 miles to the gallon for the trip inside the M25. Steve __________________ My Car - 2007 Octavia vRS TDI in Diamond Silver-Cruise Control-Parking Sensors-Light Assisit/Auto Wipers-Bluetooth-Jumbo Pack For Work - 2004 Landrover Freelander TD4 Commercial - Owned and run by me Something for Weekend - My Bed

04-08-2008, 22:48	#13
Babs Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Newport/Preston Posts: 4,153 Members Car: Skoda Octavia vRS Thanks: 216 Thanked 139 Times in 123 Posts	Re: Its going to far My Dad's 2.0 Mondeo Auto will be £400 It's just f*cking stupid __________________ - Andrew Octavia vRS For Sale / Bosch Rotary Polisher For Sale

04-08-2008, 22:50	#14
cheezemonkhai Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 15,575 Members Car: Thanks: 111 Thanked 512 Times in 475 Posts	Re: Its going to far Don't you know engine size is proportional to `perceived` penis size and mpg is inversely proportional to `perceived` penis size FWIW if a 2.0 mondy auto puts out the same as a 911 turbo, then really it's a pretty dirty car and people should be encouraged to exchange the car for a newer model. I'd think an incentive paid for by a large showroom tax on the new `polluting` cars would do this. __________________ Cars make CO2 and trees absorb CO2. By driving your car you're feeding a tree and helping the environment.

05-08-2008, 00:09	#16
Babs Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Newport/Preston Posts: 4,153 Members Car: Skoda Octavia vRS Thanks: 216 Thanked 139 Times in 123 Posts	Re: Its going to far I'd agree with what Blade says... and that oil argument is irrelevant if the government would put plans for sustainable/renewable sources into practice... but they wouldn't get fuel duty from that, would they? __________________ - Andrew Octavia vRS For Sale / Bosch Rotary Polisher For Sale

05-08-2008, 06:40	#17
Captain Scarlet Proud new Dad Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Carlisle, Cumbria Posts: 2,871 Members Car: Octavia vRS TDi Thanks: 165 Thanked 159 Times in 150 Posts	Re: Its going to far Good read that. And as Babs has ssaid the government won't get their fuel duty money , and shockingly might have to reduce their expense accounts. __________________ Running on the fuel of Satan....

05-08-2008, 13:34	#18
rurwin Briskodian Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 151 Members Car: Octavia Estate 1.9TDI Elegence Thanks: 5 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts	Re: Its going to far If anyone is interested, the full report is available here, and it makes even more fascinating reading. While I would shy away from a £1,800 top rate of VED, they make very good points about disabled and rural people needing subsidies, and that the money received ought to be hypothecated into public transport and environmental research and projects.

05-08-2008, 13:41	#19
ap0gee ASZ Eternal Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Leafy Chesh-shire Posts: 6,862 Members Car: Black Magic Fabia vRS Thanks: 346 Thanked 366 Times in 317 Posts	Re: Its going to far To add to the 'dirty Prius' point, when will the government realise that the greenest car is one that hasn't been built yet? Seeing how making a car damages the environment far more than driving it ever can, where's the logic in incentivising people to get rid of perfectly adequate cars just because they produce a little more CO2 than a new one? And don't even get me started on the electric car farce... BTW, did anyone see Channel 4's Ofcom-enforced apology over 'The Great Climate Change Swindle'? Seems some of the boffins complained about having their remarks taken out of context. Surely if 'global warming' was as definitely man-made as these people reckon, there wouldn't be any scope for twisting their words (if, of course, that is what happened???) __________________

05-08-2008, 14:00	#21
ap0gee ASZ Eternal Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Leafy Chesh-shire Posts: 6,862 Members Car: Black Magic Fabia vRS Thanks: 346 Thanked 366 Times in 317 Posts	Re: Its going to far Maybe. Doesn't make any less convinced that the global warming 'industry' has over-inflated mankind's effect on the planet. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should make an effort to use as few resources as possible and waste / pollute as little as possible for future generations as much as anything else, however I don't think the global warming 'bogeyman' and all the companies that have jumped on the bandwagon are the moral or ethical way of doing it. At risk of pulling things even further off-topic, I followed a Sky van that declared that Mr Murdoch's spawn was a CarbonNeutral (R) company. I'm sure the offices etc. that are directly run by Sky could be powered 'carbon-neutrally', but do they seriously believe that all the film studios that produce their content, and not forgetting the business of launching and maintaining the communications satellites without which Sky would be nothing produce no more CO2 than is offset by whatever means they offset it. I don't think so! And seeing how there's the little (R) symbol, presumably someone's profiting from supporting Sky claims to be green. It's all a con... __________________