mdk1

It just occurred to me, why most of us are having a laugh about still being here, after the experiment started today.
Looking at the machine with all it's pipes and cables,
Given a blank sheet of paper where do you start designing something like this

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philc

It's a hell of a design job, but they knew the theoretical physics involved -and they already had the 27KM tunnel in existence from LHC's predecessor.

Phil

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LouisTsui

yeah truly awesome, really looking forward to the collision part of the experiment.

for those who haven't watched this yet:
YouTube - Large Hadron Rap

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sharkrider

that vid is ace..

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heresmo

Apparently it has taken lots of years and lots of countries collaborating to get this far. I reckon that since they made it and tested it in sections, then:

Person No 1 takes a blank sheet of paper and makes it into paper aeroplane and sends it to Person 2. Person No 2 sends it to Person No 3...

Thus, when paper aeroplane had gone 27Km, they knew it would work Well, assuming that it landed finally in Geneva and assuming that there was a new sheet of blank paper fit travel the 27Km back to source again and the final Person realised that he was the final Person and knew he had to send it back again. I understand that this is how the design came about. I think it was a spoilsport who insisted that the paper aeroplanes be thrown at the same time and thus might collide, hence a new era of technology was born to ensure that they did indeed collide.

Mo

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sinister sheep

does make you wonder what they were thinking of designing it, and the possibiltiy that we could all go bang!?

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Cant beat em join em!!!!

KenONeill

How do you start? With smaller machines. Basic (relatively low) energy cyclotrons are small enough to fit in a room.

Other than "we already had the tunnel" the LHC is that big because the larger the diameter of a cyclotron the easier it is to bend the particle beams round the curve at high speed, like how you need to steer your car less to go round a motorway bend than to get out your space in the supermarket carpark even though you're going faster on the motorway.

Decron

Lady Elanore

OR






Does anyone know if they have found Mr Higgs Bison yet? It would probably be very hungry by now as there doesn’t appear to be any grass in those tubes.



.

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Decron

They haven't started smashing yet, supposed to be in a few weeks time.

gallego1968

It`s an amazing bit of engineering which i`ve tried to understand, can`t wait to see what happens when it`s working properly.

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Clunkclick

If you're a bit behind the curve, like me, you may be viewing this page using an LHC predecessor, the CRT !

Particle accelerator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It must have been a "Hot" topic in the '60s - didn't Len Deighton make reference to its predecessor in the "Ipcress File ", the fictional "proton-proton scattering device".


Nick.

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Basil

Sorry to say - but with all the starving kids and suffering in the world - how can anyone justify spending so much on a machine?
Mankind itself sucks....

Bas

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daiking

In the name of progress

Why go to the moon, why climb everest, why drive fast cars?

Clunkclick

Agree with you.

But there are plenty of other expenditures, with far less potential to yield far reaching benefits to mankind, which, if there was a scale of social and economic priorities, could be "Vired" to this end e.g. footballer's salaries and transfer fees come to mind, or any item of mass consumption e.g. Cosemetics, where UK expenditure is £ 5bn a year, as opposed to £4.2bn over 10 years cost of the LHC.

Cosmetics

I would hazard a guess that there has been and will be technological "Spin-off" (Ha!Ha!) which will directly benefit the mass of humanity and not just the academic physicists and arms industry (Cough !)


Nick

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daiking

'Twas ever thus but we're not going to progress very much further by burning oil alone are we?

Clunkclick

Agreed again.

I suspect that the possibilities exist for technology transfer between the LHC program and the next stage of the Fusion reactor program, currently under construction at Cadarache - particularly in relation to building resistance to the degradation of materials under bombardment by high energy particles.

ITER


Nick

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Basil

Don't get me wrong - I love technology, but shouldn't we sort out mankind's problems first, then move on to other things?
Guess it's totally unrealistic, but still would be great to make a proper change in the way that things are...

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daiking

lol, we're still struggling with fission products.

Clunkclick

Agreed in part, but I think, you're definitely taking the "Glass practically empty" position. We can't deal with car pollution and carbon induced global warming but that hasn't stopped many on this forum owning and running Skodas.

And, it has not prevented the powers that be from committing the UK to renewing some of its fission power generating capacity.

As long as you and I continue with our modern life styles, like thousands of others, and bash our gums on this forum, the energy gap won't get any smaller !

What we do know is that the fission process does work and, overall, despite its concentrated toxicity, quantitively, its less polluting than fossil fuels.

And full-scale fusion, we're told, although 50 to 70 years off, holds the prospect of more power and comparatively less pollution than current systems.

But they are all centralised systems, the supply of which can be controlled to such a level to ensure scarcity - there you go, I've said it !


Nick

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daiking

Sorry, I meant the engineering difficulties in general of containing fission not just singling out dealing with the waste. I work on the periphery of the industry which (whilst not confering me expert status, I'm anything but that) I think indicates my position on the "glass full or empty" front.

I do however think that without the pressure of something like the Cold War to develop this technology, we won't be so quick to press on without considering the consequences. If we haven't learned you don't get something for nothing in this universe, we never will.

I have, mostly, ignored the medie hype regarding this LHC project. Primarily because I realise I don't understand particle physics and also this is a long term job and I don't expect to hear ahything worthwhile any time soon. If the public are expecting immediate results and knock-on effects in their lives they'll be sorely dissappointed. Given the obscurity of the work in realtion to most people, I think it has only been this black hole/end of the world scaremongering that has brought it into the spotlight.

Last but not least, centralisation = control wholly agreed.

Loz

I had heard about this but not seen it. It's brill

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Clunkclick

Obviously, a fair bit of the media hype was inspired by the european body of pure scientists (And of course the self preserving interest of media types ) who have seen their ranks decimated since the post WW2 and Cold War heydays, as Governments have spent an ever decreasing proportion of GNP on pure research - this started in the UK with the "Brain Drain" to the U.S. in the 1960's.

Its a given that it will take longer to achieve the set objectives than in wartime scenario, or one of impending conflict - just look, for example in the military field, at the timeline for Typhoon (Eurofighter) against an earlier innovative wartime design the Mosquito, 25 years to service, against 18 months.

You're quite right, though, human nature is such that only the threat of a good thumping or substantial material loss gets most of the foot-dragging vested and controlling interests to temporarily dismantle the man-made barriers to expediting progress at the upper levels.

Given the outcomes from other Major projects, such as human genome, I wouldn't have thought it would be unreasonable to expect that once the results from full-power operation of the LHC start to become available at the end of next year, that, there will be a building cascade of results, with beneficial consequential discoveries and applications technology. Granted, as this is somewhat more uncharted territory than the Genome, there's bound to be a more extended period of academic cogitation before the ideas are applied. But, with something as fundamental as this, who can say where it will lead ?

Getting back to the original point, in Government budgetary terms, its relatively small potatoes over the period of spend and to set against this, the potential yield to input could be huge.

Nick.

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pittVRS

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mdk1

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Mike.

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