brakes on Estelle 82'

alfcapone · 29-09-2008, 11:02

i just got a hold on an Estell that have been standing under an pine tree for 10 years, it runs great when considering the circumstances actually.

But the brakes...
There is no feeling in the pedal, it goes all the way down before it breakes, just the last bit it starts to manouvre the brakes. Well it stops but its not a great feeling...

I looked over the front calipers and they seem to work properly, but then i found a small 8mm, nut on the top just beside the disc on each side, whats that for?

And Im thinking of overhaul the main brake cylinder, suggestions anyone do you think the gaskets in the cylinder is the main problem here?

KenONeill · 29-09-2008, 13:25

If it's been sat under a tree doing nowt for 10 years, I'd start with new brake fluid, and check the discs for rust.

Also, I'd expect braking more like your 96s than your Activa (Hydropneumatic Citroens have the best brakes of any cars I've ever driven).

alfcapone · 29-09-2008, 15:34

yeah love the brake feeling on the citroen just lay the foot on the pedal and feel the force;-)

Well the brakes on my Saab is great too lovely feeling, but the little estelle... you can press the pedal to the floor before the brakes start to react only the last inch makes a diffrence, that can hardly be fixed with brake fluid.

Do you know what the small nuts are doing right on top of the caliper? They seem to go throu to the area where the pads are placed.

KenONeill · 29-09-2008, 15:56

Totally OT, but I once out-braked a mate's Escort in my BX, using only the handbrake while he used the footbrake, for a bet!

The Estelle was actually over-braked at the front, with the standard 4-pot calipers. Long travel suggests one of these things to me, in the order I remember them:-
1) Brakes need bleeding.
2) High level of water causing fade.
3) Worn-out flexible lines expanding under load.
4) Model dependant. If it relies on the h/b to hold the rear brake adjustment, slack h/b adjustment. If it's more than 6 clicks till the h/b is on hard, start here. It's free, so you've nothing more than 15 minutes of your time to lose.
5) Master cylinder seals.

On a car that's been sat parked up and not worked on for 10 years, I'd check 4 and 3 first, then change the fluid and bleed properly covering 1 and 2 before assuming it was 5.

No idea what the nuts are unless there's nothing else that could be the bleed nipple locations cos I can't see them on the 1 front suspension photo I've got.

alfcapone · 30-09-2008, 05:58

I get every thing but no 4.
h/b = handbrake?
are you saying that if it looks like they adjusted the handbrake by the cable and not by the linings it can mess things up?

I notised that the cables is not adjusted equal LH/RH side when looking under the lid in the rear. RH side was adjusted way more the LH side, and thats not a good sign in any car.
I may have to check the rear brakes just to be shure.
How do i adjust the rear brakes properly at the wheels, is that doable from the out side?
Is there a hole in the drum where i stick in a screwdriver and fiddle with a gear like an VW or is it an outside screw like my saab or a camper?

KenONeill · 30-09-2008, 08:42

I don't own an Estelle!

Some cars (my old ZX was one) used the handbrake adjustment as the sole means of adjusting the clearance on the rear brakes so, when the hb cables stretched, not only did the hb travel increase, so did the service brake travel.

Anyone seen DaveRapid recently?

skorob2007 · 30-09-2008, 10:19

If you are considering removing the rear drums on an earlier estelle, for God's sake get a really heavy duty hub puller - you are going to need it!

alfcapone · 30-09-2008, 10:40

Ok heavy duty, then its like removing the front drivshafts on an Saab 96, almost impossible

I think ill wait for my Haynes book... to save me some trouble

andreiulescu · 30-09-2008, 11:29

you got to take out all the brake fluid. you need to change the master brake cilinder for shure (if to expensive, changing gaskets it is a must). after filling the sistem with new brake liquid, take out all the air from sistem, by unscrewing those small screws from calippers and rear cilinders. also u got to take out brake pads, one by one, and some one to push the brake pedal. the piston from caliper will come out. let it come like about 20 mm maxim. then push it back with a lever or something. this procedure must be done to unblock the pistons. ...10 years it is a long time...

excuse my bad english.

KenONeill · 30-09-2008, 11:36

It's entirely understandable to me. If I might offer one little deviation or addendum, remove one brake pad at a time when unblocking the pistons, and the disc should stop you pushing the pistons clean out of their bores.

andreiulescu · 30-09-2008, 12:10

sorry about that. the point is that the piston should not touch the disk, because it is hard to push it back. 20mm it is ok.

andreiulescu · 30-09-2008, 13:17

better should i stop write?

KenONeill · 30-09-2008, 13:40

Actually, I've had a better idea. Get a piece of wood about the depth of a brake pad without the back plate, say 10mm, and use that to arrest the movement of the pistons. This will leave you space to lever them back into the bores.

alfcapone · 30-09-2008, 16:09

Well id already checked the pistons and the run great.
But to add my version i only remove one pad at the time. And put an crowbar or similar inbetween and then push the pedal till is hits the crowbar and then force it back again with the crowbar with the disc and the other pad as support.
But it should onlu be done with good pads otherwise you might damage the disc.

The interesting thing here is that the pistons dont move if i dont press the pedal all the way down and they only move the last inch of pedal movement. Thats why i suspect the master cylinder.

KenONeill · 30-09-2008, 16:35

Well that's "free play" in the hydraulics for sure, which means big air locks, backs need adjusting, or you're right about the master cylinder. It's just that I'm reluctant to play about with a master cylinder until I know it's not air locks or adjustment.

daverapid · 30-09-2008, 18:16

If I were you I would buy new seals for the master cylinder, calipers and rear wheel cylinders. After standing for 10 years they will have perished to some degree and would most likely lead to brake failure in the future even if you get them working now.

You need to check that the metal brake pipes aren't too corroded too.

Adjusting the rear brakes is not possible externally in the same way as a VW Beetle. You need to remove the drums....to do that you need a VERY STRONG puller. The drum is part of the hub.

Richard Black · 30-09-2008, 23:11

It's even possible there simply isn't enough brake fluid - have you checked level?

82 was the changeover year for Estelle rear brakes, so you may not need that hub puller/slide hammer to get them off. I don't recall either version of Estelle using handbrake cable adjustment _officially_, but IIRC both had the usual crappy 'self-adjust' system at the back which doesn't, and many bodgetastic owners just used the handbrake cable adjustment anyway.

Frankly, if it was going to be me driving it, I'd take the entire brake system to bits and do it methodically. You can't half end up feeling stoopid if your brakes fail on you at any speed above about 1mph, y'know!

alfcapone · 01-10-2008, 06:08

Well this one has been living and then standing the 10 years above the arctic circle in Sweden.
Its wery dry air there so its almost as good as new practically no rust anywhere.
My saab -78 im running now, comes from the same place and i havent toucht the brakes on that one and it had been standing for 5 years...
Exelent charts on the brake check. But i overhauld the clutch cylinders tho.
Yes i know i hear you. I have/will check the brakes and i wont be driving with crappy breakes. But my main issiue so far was
1, get it started ok
2, check why it over heats, aparently a faulty thermostat, runs great without one and no broken topgasket as far as i notice now.
3, the crappy breake feel in the pedal, there i am now.

Thanks you all for the tips and ideas!!
Keep posting

havent got my Haynes book yet so im learning by taking apart for now.

And if you ever own a Alfa spider and sprint, Volvo 480, Citroen GSA and Xantia, jaguar XJ12, Beetle and Saab 96, you know what im talking about. Well basicly you have learnt to DIY...

KenONeill · 01-10-2008, 08:23

(2) Either a stuck closed or part open thermostat (odds on if removing the 'stat stops the overheating) or an airlock with a rear engine, front radiator system.

daverapid · 01-10-2008, 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Black

82 was the changeover year for Estelle rear brakes, so you may not need that hub puller/slide hammer to get them off. I don't recall either version of Estelle using handbrake cable adjustment _officially_, but IIRC both had the usual crappy 'self-adjust' system at the back which doesn't, and many bodgetastic owners just used the handbrake cable adjustment anyway.

All swing axle rear suspension Estelles used rear drums that were integral with the hubs that need a puller to remove them. Only the semi trailing arm cars had seperate drums. An Estelle made in 1982 would have swing axles.

KenONeill · 01-10-2008, 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by daverapid

All swing axle rear suspension Estelles used rear drums that were integral with the hubs that need a puller to remove them. Only the semi trailing arm cars had seperate drums. An Estelle made in 1982 would have swing axles.

Even when the semi-trailing arms came in weren't they officially only on 130s, and possibly some 120 LSEs?

alfcapone · 03-10-2008, 06:04

Well i got my Haynes now and the nuts that ive talked about is aparently the mounting parts for some brakepad holders/spacers on the top and bottom of the brake pad.

daverapid · 03-10-2008, 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by KenONeill

Even when the semi-trailing arms came in weren't they officially only on 130s, and possibly some 120 LSEs?

The Rapid 120, all 130,135,136 models and the [very rare]120LXE had semi-trailing arm rear suspension. Everything else, including the 120LSE had swing axles.

Sorry for being an anorak!

KenONeill · 03-10-2008, 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by daverapid

The Rapid 120, all 130,135,136 models and the [very rare]120LXE had semi-trailing arm rear suspension. Everything else, including the 120LSE had swing axles.

Sorry for being an anorak!

Cheers mate. I asked the question after all.

Tenman · 06-10-2008, 16:58

just been having mucho fun with my brakes on my rapid, to be honest, if its been standing that long I'd look at replacing the lot (cylinders/cables/pipes/shoes/pads/rear brake overhaul kits) before bleeding them properly, brake parts are pretty cheap, you should be able to overhaul the entire system for about 150 UK pounds, it'll work out cheaper that way then buying shed loads of brake fluid because you have to bleed the system umpteen times everytime you think you've fixed it...

29-09-2008, 11:02	#1
alfcapone Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 14 Members Car: Estelle 120 GLS Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	brakes on Estelle 82' i just got a hold on an Estell that have been standing under an pine tree for 10 years, it runs great when considering the circumstances actually. But the brakes... There is no feeling in the pedal, it goes all the way down before it breakes, just the last bit it starts to manouvre the brakes. Well it stops but its not a great feeling... I looked over the front calipers and they seem to work properly, but then i found a small 8mm, nut on the top just beside the disc on each side, whats that for? And Im thinking of overhaul the main brake cylinder, suggestions anyone do you think the gaskets in the cylinder is the main problem here?

29-09-2008, 13:25	#2
KenONeill Briskodian Join Date: May 2006 Location: Normally in Scotland! Posts: 11,213 Members Car: Octavia TDi110 Thanks: 65 Thanked 561 Times in 549 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' If it's been sat under a tree doing nowt for 10 years, I'd start with new brake fluid, and check the discs for rust. Also, I'd expect braking more like your 96s than your Activa (Hydropneumatic Citroens have the best brakes of any cars I've ever driven).

29-09-2008, 15:34	#3
alfcapone Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 14 Members Car: Estelle 120 GLS Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' yeah love the brake feeling on the citroen just lay the foot on the pedal and feel the force;-) Well the brakes on my Saab is great too lovely feeling, but the little estelle... you can press the pedal to the floor before the brakes start to react only the last inch makes a diffrence, that can hardly be fixed with brake fluid. Do you know what the small nuts are doing right on top of the caliper? They seem to go throu to the area where the pads are placed. __________________ Citroen Xantia Activa, two Saab 96 and now an Estelle, when shall i learn...

29-09-2008, 15:56	#4
KenONeill Briskodian Join Date: May 2006 Location: Normally in Scotland! Posts: 11,213 Members Car: Octavia TDi110 Thanks: 65 Thanked 561 Times in 549 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' Totally OT, but I once out-braked a mate's Escort in my BX, using only the handbrake while he used the footbrake, for a bet! The Estelle was actually over-braked at the front, with the standard 4-pot calipers. Long travel suggests one of these things to me, in the order I remember them:- 1) Brakes need bleeding. 2) High level of water causing fade. 3) Worn-out flexible lines expanding under load. 4) Model dependant. If it relies on the h/b to hold the rear brake adjustment, slack h/b adjustment. If it's more than 6 clicks till the h/b is on hard, start here. It's free, so you've nothing more than 15 minutes of your time to lose. 5) Master cylinder seals. On a car that's been sat parked up and not worked on for 10 years, I'd check 4 and 3 first, then change the fluid and bleed properly covering 1 and 2 before assuming it was 5. No idea what the nuts are unless there's nothing else that could be the bleed nipple locations cos I can't see them on the 1 front suspension photo I've got.

30-09-2008, 05:58	#5
alfcapone Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 14 Members Car: Estelle 120 GLS Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' I get every thing but no 4. h/b = handbrake? are you saying that if it looks like they adjusted the handbrake by the cable and not by the linings it can mess things up? I notised that the cables is not adjusted equal LH/RH side when looking under the lid in the rear. RH side was adjusted way more the LH side, and thats not a good sign in any car. I may have to check the rear brakes just to be shure. How do i adjust the rear brakes properly at the wheels, is that doable from the out side? Is there a hole in the drum where i stick in a screwdriver and fiddle with a gear like an VW or is it an outside screw like my saab or a camper? __________________ Citroen Xantia Activa, two Saab 96 and now an Estelle, when shall i learn...

30-09-2008, 08:42	#6
KenONeill Briskodian Join Date: May 2006 Location: Normally in Scotland! Posts: 11,213 Members Car: Octavia TDi110 Thanks: 65 Thanked 561 Times in 549 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' I don't own an Estelle! Some cars (my old ZX was one) used the handbrake adjustment as the sole means of adjusting the clearance on the rear brakes so, when the hb cables stretched, not only did the hb travel increase, so did the service brake travel. Anyone seen DaveRapid recently?

30-09-2008, 10:19	#7
skorob2007 Briskodian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Peterborough Posts: 610 Members Car: Thanks: 37 Thanked 78 Times in 54 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' If you are considering removing the rear drums on an earlier estelle, for God's sake get a really heavy duty hub puller - you are going to need it!

30-09-2008, 10:40	#8
alfcapone Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 14 Members Car: Estelle 120 GLS Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' Ok heavy duty, then its like removing the front drivshafts on an Saab 96, almost impossible I think ill wait for my Haynes book... to save me some trouble __________________ Citroen Xantia Activa, two Saab 96 and now an Estelle, when shall i learn...

30-09-2008, 11:29	#9
andreiulescu Briskodian Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 17 Members Car: skoda s100 1.3 5speed Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' you got to take out all the brake fluid. you need to change the master brake cilinder for shure (if to expensive, changing gaskets it is a must). after filling the sistem with new brake liquid, take out all the air from sistem, by unscrewing those small screws from calippers and rear cilinders. also u got to take out brake pads, one by one, and some one to push the brake pedal. the piston from caliper will come out. let it come like about 20 mm maxim. then push it back with a lever or something. this procedure must be done to unblock the pistons. ...10 years it is a long time... excuse my bad english.

30-09-2008, 11:36	#10
KenONeill Briskodian Join Date: May 2006 Location: Normally in Scotland! Posts: 11,213 Members Car: Octavia TDi110 Thanks: 65 Thanked 561 Times in 549 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' It's entirely understandable to me. If I might offer one little deviation or addendum, remove one brake pad at a time when unblocking the pistons, and the disc should stop you pushing the pistons clean out of their bores.

30-09-2008, 12:10	#11
andreiulescu Briskodian Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 17 Members Car: skoda s100 1.3 5speed Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' sorry about that. the point is that the piston should not touch the disk, because it is hard to push it back. 20mm it is ok. __________________ skodafriends.ro - s100 1.3 5speed

30-09-2008, 13:17	#12
andreiulescu Briskodian Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 17 Members Car: skoda s100 1.3 5speed Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' better should i stop write? __________________ skodafriends.ro - s100 1.3 5speed

30-09-2008, 13:40	#13
KenONeill Briskodian Join Date: May 2006 Location: Normally in Scotland! Posts: 11,213 Members Car: Octavia TDi110 Thanks: 65 Thanked 561 Times in 549 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' Actually, I've had a better idea. Get a piece of wood about the depth of a brake pad without the back plate, say 10mm, and use that to arrest the movement of the pistons. This will leave you space to lever them back into the bores.

30-09-2008, 16:09	#14
alfcapone Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 14 Members Car: Estelle 120 GLS Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' Well id already checked the pistons and the run great. But to add my version i only remove one pad at the time. And put an crowbar or similar inbetween and then push the pedal till is hits the crowbar and then force it back again with the crowbar with the disc and the other pad as support. But it should onlu be done with good pads otherwise you might damage the disc. The interesting thing here is that the pistons dont move if i dont press the pedal all the way down and they only move the last inch of pedal movement. Thats why i suspect the master cylinder. __________________ Citroen Xantia Activa, two Saab 96 and now an Estelle, when shall i learn...

30-09-2008, 16:35	#15
KenONeill Briskodian Join Date: May 2006 Location: Normally in Scotland! Posts: 11,213 Members Car: Octavia TDi110 Thanks: 65 Thanked 561 Times in 549 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' Well that's "free play" in the hydraulics for sure, which means big air locks, backs need adjusting, or you're right about the master cylinder. It's just that I'm reluctant to play about with a master cylinder until I know it's not air locks or adjustment.

30-09-2008, 18:16	#16
daverapid Briskodian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sawston, Cambridgeshire Posts: 881 Members Car: SKODA RAPID 136 Thanks: 20 Thanked 95 Times in 87 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' If I were you I would buy new seals for the master cylinder, calipers and rear wheel cylinders. After standing for 10 years they will have perished to some degree and would most likely lead to brake failure in the future even if you get them working now. You need to check that the metal brake pipes aren't too corroded too. Adjusting the rear brakes is not possible externally in the same way as a VW Beetle. You need to remove the drums....to do that you need a VERY STRONG puller. The drum is part of the hub. __________________ David McKinney TREASURER OF SKODA OWNERS CLUB GREAT BRITAIN www.skoda-owners-club.org.uk

30-09-2008, 23:11	#17
Richard Black Briskodian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: SE London Posts: 216 Members Car: 1993 Favorit Thanks: 1 Thanked 33 Times in 28 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' It's even possible there simply isn't enough brake fluid - have you checked level? 82 was the changeover year for Estelle rear brakes, so you may not need that hub puller/slide hammer to get them off. I don't recall either version of Estelle using handbrake cable adjustment _officially_, but IIRC both had the usual crappy 'self-adjust' system at the back which doesn't, and many bodgetastic owners just used the handbrake cable adjustment anyway. Frankly, if it was going to be me driving it, I'd take the entire brake system to bits and do it methodically. You can't half end up feeling stoopid if your brakes fail on you at any speed above about 1mph, y'know!

01-10-2008, 06:08	#18
alfcapone Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 14 Members Car: Estelle 120 GLS Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' Well this one has been living and then standing the 10 years above the arctic circle in Sweden. Its wery dry air there so its almost as good as new practically no rust anywhere. My saab -78 im running now, comes from the same place and i havent toucht the brakes on that one and it had been standing for 5 years... Exelent charts on the brake check. But i overhauld the clutch cylinders tho. Yes i know i hear you. I have/will check the brakes and i wont be driving with crappy breakes. But my main issiue so far was 1, get it started ok 2, check why it over heats, aparently a faulty thermostat, runs great without one and no broken topgasket as far as i notice now. 3, the crappy breake feel in the pedal, there i am now. Thanks you all for the tips and ideas!! Keep posting havent got my Haynes book yet so im learning by taking apart for now. And if you ever own a Alfa spider and sprint, Volvo 480, Citroen GSA and Xantia, jaguar XJ12, Beetle and Saab 96, you know what im talking about. Well basicly you have learnt to DIY... __________________ Citroen Xantia Activa, two Saab 96 and now an Estelle, when shall i learn...

01-10-2008, 08:23	#19
KenONeill Briskodian Join Date: May 2006 Location: Normally in Scotland! Posts: 11,213 Members Car: Octavia TDi110 Thanks: 65 Thanked 561 Times in 549 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' (2) Either a stuck closed or part open thermostat (odds on if removing the 'stat stops the overheating) or an airlock with a rear engine, front radiator system.

03-10-2008, 06:04	#22
alfcapone Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 14 Members Car: Estelle 120 GLS Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' Well i got my Haynes now and the nuts that ive talked about is aparently the mounting parts for some brakepad holders/spacers on the top and bottom of the brake pad. __________________ Citroen Xantia Activa, two Saab 96 and now an Estelle, when shall i learn...

06-10-2008, 16:58	#25
Tenman Briskodian Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Manchester Posts: 94 Members Car: Rapid 136... in bright yellow Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: brakes on Estelle 82' just been having mucho fun with my brakes on my rapid, to be honest, if its been standing that long I'd look at replacing the lot (cylinders/cables/pipes/shoes/pads/rear brake overhaul kits) before bleeding them properly, brake parts are pretty cheap, you should be able to overhaul the entire system for about 150 UK pounds, it'll work out cheaper that way then buying shed loads of brake fluid because you have to bleed the system umpteen times everytime you think you've fixed it...

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