Gearbox Synchro's

chappers849 · 31-07-2008, 18:59

Quick question. If i wanted to change my 2nd gear synchro, would the gearbox need stripping apart or if a clutch and flywheel change is already being done would there be much more work involved to change it ?
Reason i am thinking about changing it is my 2nd gear is very snatchy and not at all smooth like all the other gears.
thanks

rotodiesel · 31-07-2008, 19:05

5 or 6 speed? The gearbox will have to be removed from the vehicle (a clutch and DMF change might then be opportune) and the gearbox would need to be almost fully stripped to change second gear synchromesh. It's quite a lot of work and the parts are expensive.

Unless there is a major problem here, I wouldn't bother because second gear synchro is useless on these vehicles anyway until the gearbox is hot. Check that the box is correctly filled with the specified lubricant.

If you must have a slick gearbox, buy a Japanese car.

rotodiesel.

Lummox · 31-07-2008, 19:05

Yep gearbox would need to be dismantled and refurbished. There would be more parts to replace than just the syncro.

chappers849 · 31-07-2008, 19:10

ok thanks, was just wondering if it was a good time whilst have the other work done but i guess i won't bother now lol. Is there any adjustment that could be done instead when it is all put back together or will 2nd gear be the same ? Why is it so crap, the rest of the gears are fine. Yes as the box warms up it is better but even then if changing down from 3rd to 2nd you can sometimes catch the gear and it snaggs if you know what i mean ?
thanks

Lummox · 31-07-2008, 19:31

No adjustments will make any difference to one gear even if you could adjust them.

chappers849 · 31-07-2008, 19:36

ok thanks

How much does a re-con gearbox cost ?

Lummox · 31-07-2008, 19:46

Depends on what it needs, couple of hundered at least with the box out.

Bluefox · 31-07-2008, 22:07

This is another common Mk2 Golf problem.

The fix in those boxes was to use Redline MTL (I think) which seemed to do the trick - was slightly thicker than OE.

With this in mind... anyone got the required specs for Superb gearbox oil? Sorry to thread hijack lol

Lummox · 01-08-2008, 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluefox

This is another common Mk2 Golf problem.

Rather different gearbox though, the Golf being transverse.

I would have thought a better oil to use would have been thinner. This means the oil can get in between the syncros and help lubricate them.

Bluefox · 01-08-2008, 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lummox

Rather different gearbox though, the Golf being transverse.

I would have thought a better oil to use would have been thinner. This means the oil can get in between the syncros and help lubricate them.

Yeah, I realise it's a totally different 'box - I'm just thinking there seems to be a pattern with VAG vehicles and second gear crunch.

Perhaps you're right, it is thinner - it does make more sense. It's been a while so I've done anything with a Mk2 so I can't really remember!

chappers849 · 03-11-2008, 23:57

after getting really fed up with my second gear problem especially now as the weather is getting colder, i decided to take to a gearbox specialist.
They have stripped the box down and i have been told that 1st and 2nd gear synchro's have been binding which is causing my problem. I popped down and had a quick look and there is some sort of groove, lip on a part of the synchro ring. They are 3 part synchro's apparently - what ever that means!!
The rest of the box is in great condition and they said nothing wrong with it. They are replacing 1st and 2nd gear/ring.

What has puzzled me is that about 3 months ago i had a new LUK Clutch and Flywheel fitted and they also checked that for me today but said the flywheel has movement in it? Why we were under the car and the flywheel was still attached to the engine you could turn the inner ring a bit to the left and right. They said this wasn't right, so i popped down to GSF and looked at another one out of the box and it kind of did the same thing but was not as stiff but i put that down to the fact that it wasn't covered in clutch dust etc. Does anyone know if this is ok as i just want to put my mind at ease ?
I also noticed that on the clutch plate bearing that there was some wear and i was told perhaps i have been riding the clutch or resting my foot on the pedal which i haven't. Any ideas what could cause this ?
Thanks in advance

Lummox · 07-11-2008, 07:59

Dual mass flywheels should move, they are two parts (hence dual mass) and they move but should be sprung so the turn then you feel a resistance and it returns a little.

chappers849 · 07-11-2008, 17:27

I am so angry, got my car back and same problem!!!! Done some investigation and i think i have been had over

auroan · 07-11-2008, 17:56

Why ?

rotodiesel · 07-11-2008, 19:35

As I said in post 2, second gear synchro is useless when the gearbox is cold. Every manual Superb/Passat I've tried has been like this.

The reason is probably that this transmission contains a helical bevel gear for the final drive (to turn the drive through 90 degrees) which needs a heavier lubricant than non bevel gears in order to maintain the oil film. It's most noticable on second gear because the ratios in any vehicle gearbox are most widely spaced at the lower end of the box and second gear is the first synchroniser you need after moving off. As you move up through the box, the ratios become closer (to match the drag curve) and the synchros have to do far less work - so they don't crunch.

I've never seen a VAG manual box with worn synchromesh given fair use in under 100k miles, so I would tend to doubt the story of the gearbox rebuilder. This transmission is a very old design - I think you just have to live with its limitations.

I learned to drive on a car with no synchromesh at all...

rotodiesel.

chappers849 · 10-11-2008, 20:18

it only gives me grief when coming down through the box now, from 3rd to 2nd. It is alot smoother going from 1st to 2nd. Would that explain it then ?

Bluefox · 11-11-2008, 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotodiesel

I learned to drive on a car with no synchromesh at all...

Showing your age there, Roto?

The second gear syncromesh on (most) VW boxes is indeed pants, and seemingly especially on the Superb's as is well discussed.

I think you're just going to have to live with it

rum4mo · 11-11-2008, 22:56

Yup, on my 4motion Pas It when I pull out onto the main road in the (cold) mornings its 1st then 3rd - luckily I am driving down a hill!

cjb · 11-11-2008, 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluefox

The second gear syncromesh on (most) VW boxes is indeed pants, and seemingly especially on the Superb's as is well discussed.

I think you're just going to have to live with it

That's my experience in 20 years of driving VAG Cars, and even Montego/Maestros with VW boxes. They all crunch slightly 1st-2nd when cold.

cjb · 11-11-2008, 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by chappers849

it only gives me grief when coming down through the box now, from 3rd to 2nd. It is alot smoother going from 1st to 2nd. Would that explain it then ?

You could try double-declutching....

auroan · 12-11-2008, 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by chappers849

I am so angry, got my car back and same problem!!!! Done some investigation and i think i have been had over

so why do you think you've been had over ?

31-07-2008, 18:59	#1
chappers849 Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 88 Members Car: superb Thanks: 14 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gearbox Synchro's Quick question. If i wanted to change my 2nd gear synchro, would the gearbox need stripping apart or if a clutch and flywheel change is already being done would there be much more work involved to change it ? Reason i am thinking about changing it is my 2nd gear is very snatchy and not at all smooth like all the other gears. thanks

31-07-2008, 19:05	#2
rotodiesel Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 669 Members Car: Thanks: 5 Thanked 83 Times in 74 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's 5 or 6 speed? The gearbox will have to be removed from the vehicle (a clutch and DMF change might then be opportune) and the gearbox would need to be almost fully stripped to change second gear synchromesh. It's quite a lot of work and the parts are expensive. Unless there is a major problem here, I wouldn't bother because second gear synchro is useless on these vehicles anyway until the gearbox is hot. Check that the box is correctly filled with the specified lubricant. If you must have a slick gearbox, buy a Japanese car. rotodiesel.

31-07-2008, 19:05	#3
Lummox Cupra Bush King Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Newport Pagnell Posts: 22,435 Members Car: Mk2 Golf GTi 16v and building a 20VT MK2. Images: 2 Thanks: 22 Thanked 747 Times in 627 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's Yep gearbox would need to be dismantled and refurbished. There would be more parts to replace than just the syncro. __________________ www.unit18.co.uk Remapping Service now available, PM for details.

31-07-2008, 19:10	#4
chappers849 Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 88 Members Car: superb Thanks: 14 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's ok thanks, was just wondering if it was a good time whilst have the other work done but i guess i won't bother now lol. Is there any adjustment that could be done instead when it is all put back together or will 2nd gear be the same ? Why is it so crap, the rest of the gears are fine. Yes as the box warms up it is better but even then if changing down from 3rd to 2nd you can sometimes catch the gear and it snaggs if you know what i mean ? thanks

31-07-2008, 19:31	#5
Lummox Cupra Bush King Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Newport Pagnell Posts: 22,435 Members Car: Mk2 Golf GTi 16v and building a 20VT MK2. Images: 2 Thanks: 22 Thanked 747 Times in 627 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's No adjustments will make any difference to one gear even if you could adjust them. __________________ www.unit18.co.uk Remapping Service now available, PM for details.

31-07-2008, 19:36	#6
chappers849 Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 88 Members Car: superb Thanks: 14 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's ok thanks How much does a re-con gearbox cost ?

31-07-2008, 19:46	#7
Lummox Cupra Bush King Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Newport Pagnell Posts: 22,435 Members Car: Mk2 Golf GTi 16v and building a 20VT MK2. Images: 2 Thanks: 22 Thanked 747 Times in 627 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's Depends on what it needs, couple of hundered at least with the box out. __________________ www.unit18.co.uk Remapping Service now available, PM for details.

31-07-2008, 22:07	#8
Bluefox Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Rugby, Warwickshire Posts: 1,080 Members Car: 53-plate Skoda Superb 130 TDI Thanks: 64 Thanked 50 Times in 43 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's This is another common Mk2 Golf problem. The fix in those boxes was to use Redline MTL (I think) which seemed to do the trick - was slightly thicker than OE. With this in mind... anyone got the required specs for Superb gearbox oil? Sorry to thread hijack lol __________________ 2003 Superb Classic TDI 130 - Project Diary - Updated 22/11/08 2006 Fabia vRS - Project Diary - Updated 11/10/08

03-11-2008, 23:57	#11
chappers849 Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 88 Members Car: superb Thanks: 14 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's after getting really fed up with my second gear problem especially now as the weather is getting colder, i decided to take to a gearbox specialist. They have stripped the box down and i have been told that 1st and 2nd gear synchro's have been binding which is causing my problem. I popped down and had a quick look and there is some sort of groove, lip on a part of the synchro ring. They are 3 part synchro's apparently - what ever that means!! The rest of the box is in great condition and they said nothing wrong with it. They are replacing 1st and 2nd gear/ring. What has puzzled me is that about 3 months ago i had a new LUK Clutch and Flywheel fitted and they also checked that for me today but said the flywheel has movement in it? Why we were under the car and the flywheel was still attached to the engine you could turn the inner ring a bit to the left and right. They said this wasn't right, so i popped down to GSF and looked at another one out of the box and it kind of did the same thing but was not as stiff but i put that down to the fact that it wasn't covered in clutch dust etc. Does anyone know if this is ok as i just want to put my mind at ease ? I also noticed that on the clutch plate bearing that there was some wear and i was told perhaps i have been riding the clutch or resting my foot on the pedal which i haven't. Any ideas what could cause this ? Thanks in advance

07-11-2008, 07:59	#12
Lummox Cupra Bush King Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Newport Pagnell Posts: 22,435 Members Car: Mk2 Golf GTi 16v and building a 20VT MK2. Images: 2 Thanks: 22 Thanked 747 Times in 627 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's Dual mass flywheels should move, they are two parts (hence dual mass) and they move but should be sprung so the turn then you feel a resistance and it returns a little. __________________ www.unit18.co.uk Remapping Service now available, PM for details.

07-11-2008, 17:27	#13
chappers849 Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 88 Members Car: superb Thanks: 14 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's I am so angry, got my car back and same problem!!!! Done some investigation and i think i have been had over

07-11-2008, 17:56	#14
auroan Briskoda Staff Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 2,871 Members Car: AUDI A4 B7 2.0 TDI SE Saloon Thanks: 206 Thanked 112 Times in 98 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's Why ? __________________ '05 Audi A4 2.0 Tdi SE - no mods until the warrenty expires ... yeah right... interior light pack, 3 spoke mfsw. '00 Audi A4 2.8 Quattro - Gone.... (bleeding money pit ) Audi A4 2.6 Avant (Breaking - Check out http://shop.ebay.co.uk/merchant/auroan)

07-11-2008, 19:35	#15
rotodiesel Briskodian Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 669 Members Car: Thanks: 5 Thanked 83 Times in 74 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's As I said in post 2, second gear synchro is useless when the gearbox is cold. Every manual Superb/Passat I've tried has been like this. The reason is probably that this transmission contains a helical bevel gear for the final drive (to turn the drive through 90 degrees) which needs a heavier lubricant than non bevel gears in order to maintain the oil film. It's most noticable on second gear because the ratios in any vehicle gearbox are most widely spaced at the lower end of the box and second gear is the first synchroniser you need after moving off. As you move up through the box, the ratios become closer (to match the drag curve) and the synchros have to do far less work - so they don't crunch. I've never seen a VAG manual box with worn synchromesh given fair use in under 100k miles, so I would tend to doubt the story of the gearbox rebuilder. This transmission is a very old design - I think you just have to live with its limitations. I learned to drive on a car with no synchromesh at all... rotodiesel. Last edited by rotodiesel; 08-11-2008 at 00:41.

10-11-2008, 20:18	#16
chappers849 Briskodian Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 88 Members Car: superb Thanks: 14 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's it only gives me grief when coming down through the box now, from 3rd to 2nd. It is alot smoother going from 1st to 2nd. Would that explain it then ?

11-11-2008, 22:56	#18
rum4mo Briskodian Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 738 Members Car: Thanks: 2 Thanked 54 Times in 54 Posts	Re: Gearbox Synchro's Yup, on my 4motion Pas It when I pull out onto the main road in the (cold) mornings its 1st then 3rd - luckily I am driving down a hill!

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Gearbox Synchro's

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