Fabia 1.6 CR TDI 90bhp appalling fuel consumption

[xman]

Below is the quote the dealership sent to me from Skoda Technical with regards to the fuel consumption.......

........ Also be aware the MPG figures published in the brochure are figures produced by a independent government department not Skoda.

That is both a lie and a convenient get out.

If it were true then the UK figures would differ from the Czech,German etc figures - which they don't - not even by a little. If I were you I would challenge then to give you a contact or documentation to prove that claim (and follow through) hopefully to embarrass them.... and get some action on this whole farce regarding manufacturers claims.

Edited 29 December, 2010 by xman

[MikeHart]

no mike,

Modern engines are closed loop systems.

You would need to go to college for a while to understand control theory, the maths behind such systems. Engine injectors do not have to be accurately calibrated as the engine ECU uses feedback from the numerous engine sensors. In fact injector characteristics vary considerably in service due to temperature,age, fuel pressures, contamination (internal and external),even the fuel used.

Without closed loop control, your car would have to be tuned every service (or more) as was the case with old fashioned carburetor technology.

Hello,

OK, I get you now. It simply needs to know whether it needs to inject more or less, not the exact amount etc. depending on the feedback from the sensors. Taking the various values from the sensors., it can determine whether it needs to retard/advance ignition, add more or less fuel etc.etc. and by changing this slowly over several cycles, it can continuously adjust. However, the dealers and Skodas talk about it 'learning the injectors' and phrases like this. Seems to me it would learn things really quickly as many millions of minute changes could be make over a single journey. I was told it would take 500 miles to 'learn the injectors'. What can it be learning over that sort of distance?

[MikeHart]

I have a Fabia 1.6TDI 105PS Elegance Estate on order with build provisionally week 9 so should be an 11 plate not 60.

I don't mind if it slips a little as probably easier to sell my car a bit longer after Christmas and (hopefully) brighter warmer weather.

I aim to keep it for 8-10 years so decided diesel rather than petrol as assuming road tax stays £70 year cheaper that covers most of the higher purchase price then I'm trusting the price difference between petrol and diesel does not reach 30% so my fuel cost will be less and eventually the diesel will be more desirable and have a better resale.

If I was only intending to keep 3-5 years petrol would have been the better value choice.

The current deal of discount equivalent to VAT and 2 years free credit for 50% of price makes a new Fabia a bargain but also I was thinking 1.6 engine more refined and economical so went for new rather than looking for a used Fabia 3 1.9 tdi.

I currently have a 10 year old Audi A4 Avant 1.9tdi 115PS.

On my regular journey pattern this returns just over 50mpg by the computer and just under 50mpg by my calculations.

I am hoping once 5000 miles on the clock to be getting nearer to 60mpg from the 1.6 Fabia.

The various comments about running in and the best gears / engine speed for good mpg are interesting.

On my test drive I noted the 1.6 didn't seem quite as happy at say 1500rpm as my 1.9 Audi so can see need to adopt to keeping in 4th below 50mph or so rather than changing up at 35-40mph.

I hope any issues with the ECU software etc are now resolved.

Regarding the DPF my journey is 11 miles each way with 7 on dual carriageway so 60-75mph so I hope that will keep it happy.

Hello,

Not sure about your journey with the DPF. My journey is 32 miles with about 20 being dual carriageway, followed by a couple of miles on a bypass (slowish) and then another 10 miles on dual carriageway. I would have thought the 20 miles of dual carriageway would be enough to do a DPF, but it often isn't and it's still going around the bypass. I can't find any particular rationale as to when it decides to do a regen and it often happens at the end of a journey. Given my experience, I would have thought only 7 miles on dual carriageway would be enough. They do talk about 20 minutes at over 2000rpm. This seems an exageration, but I would have thought 10-15minutes is necessary by my experience. Given this, 7 miles doesn't seem long enough if in 5th at 70mph. Staying at a slower speed and in 4th might be a better bet.

Mike

[MikeHart]

Hi Mike,

With respect to the engine shaking during a regen, I have been speaking with the dealer for a few months about this. The dealer has witnessed this twice now and initially agreed that this was not normal and could not believe no warning lights had come on. They did a diagnostic check and got 'weird' information but because the car stopped doing the regen and went back to normal they put it down to a loose connection. I got the car back and monitored it and the shaking still happened. The car was returned and Skoda remotely re-mapped the ECU, this was early September. They also gave the car an oil change at Skoda's request as the oil level had gone above maximum. The car still shakes, sometimes quite violently and the word now from Skoda is that it is a characteristic of the engine. I see the same thing as you, if you are at speed you do not notice anything but if at idle the car is terrible and I do not believe this is acceptable. The oil level is also rising again.

Going back to the MPG problem it is so variable but even on a good day I still think it is 10 to 15% lower than I expected. Recent long trips of about 60 miles at 70mph gave me an average of 51mpg, the return journey at a steady 65mph gave me 58mpg. Over Christmas on a 100 mile trip travelling at 60 to 65mph I got 61mpg and on the return journey at 65-70mph I got 54mpg. So on a long easy drive it struggles to reach the urban figure.

Below is the quote the dealership sent to me from Skoda Technical with regards to the fuel consumption.

Also having driven a 1.6 CR TDI for 6 months the MPG, comfort and performance were totally different (better) once the car had covered approximately 4000 mls. Also be aware the MPG figures published in the brochure are figures produced by a independent government department not Skoda.

I am currently waiting to hear back from Skoda customer service as the dealership do not know what else they can do. I won't hold my breath.

Interesting comments and things I've heard before. The dealership and Skoda themselves seem completely incapable of diagnosing anything. My dealership have had Skoda on remotely whilst running the car. Everything OK!! My dealer has never seen the DPF shaking, but that's because they've never had it during a regen. How can I guess when one will occur!! I can't believe a car should shake like this during regen even at low revs (1000rpm) and nobody seems to care. The dealership have done everything they can and Skoda aren't interested. My car is now just over 4000miles and still stinks of burning rubber on occasion during regen. The smell (whether just hot or burning rubber) often comes into the cabin due to the ventilation system. Skoda simply ask for it to be checked and aren't interested. The shaking during regen is incredibly variable, which in its own right makes me think it's not normal. Sometimes it's really violent, sometimes not. As Skoda customer service aren't worth anything, I'm thinking of writing to the managing director of Skoda UK and bringing it to his attention. I'm really unhappy, but they have my money......what can I do?

[raisbeck]

No its not! Its a consequence of the regen - during a regen, fuel is injected very late, this remains unburnt with the intention of making it into the DPF where it will ignite and burn raising the DPF temperature to start the regen process.

Inevitably some fuel will wash past the rings and get into the sump - its a well known problem with DPF equipped vehicles and yet another reason why I probably wont buy one.

Going to agree with Xman on this one

The Mazda 6 had this problem. Its fuel getting past the pistons during a regen. The Mazda has a higher mark which indicates oil change required. Usually only a problem if people dont do the miles or get the engine good and hot to burn it off. I had believed this problem was unique to the Mazda

The oil level on my 1.4 TDI DPF is stable. It neither loses or gains any !

[FABTPM]

Interesting comments and things I've heard before. The dealership and Skoda themselves seem completely incapable of diagnosing anything. My dealership have had Skoda on remotely whilst running the car. Everything OK!! My dealer has never seen the DPF shaking, but that's because they've never had it during a regen. How can I guess when one will occur!! I can't believe a car should shake like this during regen even at low revs (1000rpm) and nobody seems to care. The dealership have done everything they can and Skoda aren't interested. My car is now just over 4000miles and still stinks of burning rubber on occasion during regen. The smell (whether just hot or burning rubber) often comes into the cabin due to the ventilation system. Skoda simply ask for it to be checked and aren't interested. The shaking during regen is incredibly variable, which in its own right makes me think it's not normal. Sometimes it's really violent, sometimes not. As Skoda customer service aren't worth anything, I'm thinking of writing to the managing director of Skoda UK and bringing it to his attention. I'm really unhappy, but they have my money......what can I do?

I have been closely monitoring the car since August and making a note of the figures displayed on the MFD at the end of a journey. This has usually been on my return journey from work which is about 13 miles over a variety of roads and traffic conditions. Having noted down these figures and whether the car was running OK I have noticed that the car performs a regen every 250 miles. I therefore was so confident when the car was going to shake for me that I could arrange for the dealer to see it first hand. From my experience it doesn't seem to matter what sort of journeys I have done, the car will do a regen every 250 miles, especially since the ECU was re-mapped. The car usually runs a bit rougher a day or so before a regen, the engine 'hunts' when pulling of the driveway and ironically it's usually more economical.

Had a call from Skoda customer service yesterday who seemed surprised that I was still not happy with the car. They had spoken to the dealer who said the car had no faults (they last saw it in September) and I was happy with it. I soon informed them of the correct information.

Thanks to the other replies concerning the increased oil level, a colleague was sent a safety warning about the oil level increasing on Volvo's as a result of the DPF system. It could be a similar issue on my car. Interestingly his commute is only 2 miles and the Volvo seems to be able to cope with this.

[Guest]

That is both a lie and a convenient get out.

If it were true then the UK figures would differ from the Czech,German etc figures - which they don't - not even by a little. If I were you I would challenge then to give you a contact or documentation to prove that claim (and follow through) hopefully to embarrass them.... and get some action on this whole farce regarding manufacturers claims.

Xman, you are such a laugh!

When I worked in the trade the figures were produced independently of the manufacturer. I understand this is still the case but with some speciality vehicles being tested by their manufacturer. The manufacturers don't even choose the actual cars that go for testing, in most cases the vehicles are just selected at random from the production line by the independant. Since it's a legal requirement to produce these figures it was decided to designate independant organisations to do this, sometimes these are commercial organisations such as or similar to...TUV testing house of Germany, sometimes a government dept.

Anyhoo...why would the Czech and German figures differ?

Notice I said 'usually caused by condensation build up'. DPF's can contribute to raised oil levels as you comment (but is it isn't very common for any make with DPF's), but ALL vehicles get some petrol or diesel in their oil when used on short trips which doesn't normally cause any problems. The main factor causing 'oil rise' in winter especially for diesels is still related to condensation build up on shorter trips and is reckoned to be more of a risk than the DPF related issue for all cars with or without DPF. If the vehicle is doing longer trips then this will not come into the equation. It's all down to how much the vehicle is used and how warmed up it gets and how long it stays warmed up to allow evaporation of the fuel or condensation. It is not a problem for vehicles driven over reasonable commutes or journeys.

Edited 31 December, 2010 by Estate Man

[Porker]

This article Economy testing is quite interesting in the light of this thread.

The second part of it (linked from the bottom of the page of part 1) is also worth a look.

P.

[Guest]

Porker, that's a brilliant article and explains a process thats even more complex than many of us, me included realised. I knew about the programming in 'air resistance' to make it more realistic, but it's one of those processes I've never witnessed being carried out. I missed the chance to see it being done a few years back when a bunch of us were invited to Germany to tour the Opel factory. I had to get back to the uk early and missed the visit to the plant doing the testing. Thanks for that. It says it all!

[Dempsek]

Porker, that's a brilliant article and explains a process thats even more complex than many of us, me included realised. I knew about the programming in 'air resistance' to make it more realistic, but it's one of those processes I've never witnessed being carried out. I missed the chance to see it being done a few years back when a bunch of us were invited to Germany to tour the Opel factory. I had to get back to the uk early and missed the visit to the plant doing the testing. Thanks for that. It says it all!

Very interesting read, reading between the lines it implies some car makers are not fully playing buy the same rules.

So the manual states the 1.6 77kw engine (105 bhp) is capable of 4.2 ltr per 100 km 67mpg on a flat road with one driver and nothing turned on.

Presuming no foul play and an improvement of 8% the car achieves around 62 mpg at test.

It also explains why the eco models have limited options, the greater the weight the sooner the car would coast to a stop and ultimately effect the official CO2 emissions.

[Guest]

In fact...the 8% improvement is quite conservative. In reality, if run in properly most engines improve by nearer 10% and some by much more at 3k. Over the years I've dyno'd loads of cars and bikes and there is a steady improvement in power output and fuel consumption on both petrol and diesel engines, but especially diesel at 5k and above. At 10k I've recorded as much as a 12.5% increase in power output on Ford Mondeo 2lt diesels over what it produced at 1,000 miles.

[threadbear]

Very interesting read, reading between the lines it implies some car makers are not fully playing buy the same rules.

So the manual states the 1.6 77kw engine (105 bhp) is capable of 4.2 ltr per 100 km 67mpg on a flat road with one driver and nothing turned on.

Presuming no foul play and an improvement of 8% the car achieves around 62 mpg at test.

It also explains why the eco models have limited options, the greater the weight the sooner the car would coast to a stop and ultimately effect the official CO2 emissions.

My 1.6 CR 105 now has well over 3000 miles on it and I can easily attain a mid 50`s to 60 mpg on a run......providing it aint too cold!!!!

[tonyfvrs]

Wind can have a considerable impact on mpg, the Fabia is not the most aerodynamic car in the world. Have you had some strong headwinds on your commute?

I have a bit of a theory here.

The manufacturers fuel consumption figures are obtained on a rolling road with a fan to pass enough air to cool the radiator.

So some clever mathematician amongst you should be able to relate this figure to drag factor and produce a theoretical fuel consumption that would be a lot nearer to the real world figure.

My two Honda Civics always came very near to the claimed figures; my Fabia VRS estate is going to get nowhere near the manufactures figure (35mpg so far) driven the same way.

This, I think, is because the Fabia has the aerodynamics of a brick.

I realise that the original poster's problem may be mechanical though.

Tony :wonder:

[raisbeck]

I have a bit of a theory here.

The manufacturers fuel consumption figures are obtained on a rolling road with a fan to pass enough air to cool the radiator.

So some clever mathematician amongst you should be able to relate this figure to drag factor and produce a theoretical fuel consumption that would be a lot nearer to the real world figure.

My two Honda Civics always came very near to the claimed figures; my Fabia VRS estate is going to get nowhere near the manufactures figure (35mpg so far) driven the same way.

This, I think, is because the Fabia has the aerodynamics of a brick.

I realise that the original poster's problem may be mechanical though.

Tony :wonder:

If you look back at the link provided by porker there is a decent description of how they factor in aerodynamics and rolling resistance. It seems fairly well put together info but as with everything on the internet you need to decide for yourself if its 100% accurate. My Greenline has aerodynamic additions to reduce drag and improve mpg. If the whole test was on a rolling road they wouldnt have bothered with the aerodynamic tweaks unless they are factored in to the tests.

Drag is not linear with increasing speed and I suspect even Stephen Hawking would struggle with a mathematical solution.

Try the link, its a good read and so is the other info on the same site. Thanks for that info btw Porker

http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/technical/fuel_economy_testing_part_one.aspx

[FABTPM]

Notice I said 'usually caused by condensation build up'. DPF's can contribute to raised oil levels as you comment (but is it isn't very common for any make with DPF's), but ALL vehicles get some petrol or diesel in their oil when used on short trips which doesn't normally cause any problems. The main factor causing 'oil rise' in winter especially for diesels is still related to condensation build up on shorter trips and is reckoned to be more of a risk than the DPF related issue for all cars with or without DPF. If the vehicle is doing longer trips then this will not come into the equation. It's all down to how much the vehicle is used and how warmed up it gets and how long it stays warmed up to allow evaporation of the fuel or condensation. It is not a problem for vehicles driven over reasonable commutes or journeys.

Just to clarify things, the oil level rose in my car over a 3 month period from June to August, the vehicle had done over 3000 miles when the oil was changed at Skoda's request. The car did not do any journeys where the oil temperature didn't go above 100. I suspect that during this period of time (high ambient temperatures) the increase in oil level was not related to condensation but due to excess fuelling. Around this time the car was sometimes doing a regen twice a week. After the oil change the level was just above half way on the dipstick, it has now done another 3000 miles and it is very close to the maximum again. I am sure this is not normal and it certainly did not happen with my 1.9 TDI so not sure why it should happen with the 1.6 TDI CR.

[raisbeck]

Just to clarify things, the oil level rose in my car over a 3 month period from June to August, the vehicle had done over 3000 miles when the oil was changed at Skoda's request. The car did not do any journeys where the oil temperature didn't go above 100. I suspect that during this period of time (high ambient temperatures) the increase in oil level was not related to condensation but due to excess fuelling. Around this time the car was sometimes doing a regen twice a week. After the oil change the level was just above half way on the dipstick, it has now done another 3000 miles and it is very close to the maximum again. I am sure this is not normal and it certainly did not happen with my 1.9 TDI so not sure why it should happen with the 1.6 TDI CR.

I did find this while browsing for DPF info : Rising oil level

Its going to kick off the supermarket fuel debate again

As previously mentioned, mine does a regen every 120 or so miles. This means it regens every other day on my work commute. Its possible that an engine not fully run in would leak some regen fuel past the rings, but what is described here seems a bit excessive even taking that in to account. After my cars next service (in about 2000 miles) I will more accurately establish the oil level for future reference. Right now its about 5mm off max after 7500 miles since first service.

If anyone checks out that link I posted, I use Esso exclusively Mostly because it happens to be on the way to work and the cheapest around.

Edited 2 January, 2011 by raisbeck

[Guest]

I did find this while browsing for DPF info : Rising oil level

Its going to kick off the supermarket fuel debate again

As previously mentioned, mine does a regen every 120 or so miles. This means it regens every other day on my work commute. Its possible that an engine not fully run in would leak some regen fuel past the rings, but what is described here seems a bit excessive even taking that in to account. After my cars next service (in about 2000 miles) I will more accurately establish the oil level for future reference. Right now its about 5mm off max after 7500 miles since first service.

If anyone checks out that link I posted, I use Esso exclusively Mostly because it happens to be on the way to work and the cheapest around.

Raisbeck, that's one interesting article. I certainly wasn't aware of some of this stuff relating to bio-diesel in the oil. I don't think any of my ex-colleagues (technicians) in the trade have heard of this either. Slight over fuelling is one thing and not usually a problem...but if bio is more stable, not evaporating so easily out of the oil as in years past, then potentially this is something to be aware of. So well done for finding it.

Edited 3 January, 2011 by Estate Man

[Dempsek]

I did find this while browsing for DPF info : Rising oil level

Its going to kick off the supermarket fuel debate again

As previously mentioned, mine does a regen every 120 or so miles. This means it regens every other day on my work commute. Its possible that an engine not fully run in would leak some regen fuel past the rings, but what is described here seems a bit excessive even taking that in to account. After my cars next service (in about 2000 miles) I will more accurately establish the oil level for future reference. Right now its about 5mm off max after 7500 miles since first service.

If anyone checks out that link I posted, I use Esso exclusively Mostly because it happens to be on the way to work and the cheapest around.

Both interesting and a worrying read. I am usually a supermarket fuel person, but since having the Fabia I have been using Shell fuel saver at the same price - I did wonder if the fuel caused my engine problem.

I knew the bio content had moved to 7 from 5% and that most of the sludge build up in a diesel engine is down to the bio content, but was not aware of the oil issue.

You would think the newer engines would be designed with this problem in mined - i.e. spray diesel into the exhaust just before the DPF not in the cylinders.

I have just checked the manual and there is no mention of the problem and what to do, just oil loss not gain and to not over fill.

I wonder if certain makes of car are more prone to the problem than others? If the Greenline's do a regen more often then I would have to presume they are more prone to the problem.

[Guest]

Hi Demsek,

I don't think it's a common problem, if it was everyone would be complaining about it, and there seems to be few who have noticed it. I think it could well be a problem limited to some models or cars that just do very short journeys...that's my take on it! I would not be concerned about it. The bigger concern in my opinion is oil rise due to water content in the oil, particularly with diesels that do very short trips only.

[dibujo]

Are all diesel cars now fitted with a DPF? I can see I'll have to do a lot of research before changing my car this year. I mean sod the emissions just give us the best engines possible.

[raisbeck]

Are all diesel cars now fitted with a DPF? I can see I'll have to do a lot of research before changing my car this year. I mean sod the emissions just give us the best engines possible.

I am afraid so. The introduction and legislation of Euro V emissions specifies among other things the particulate emissions. To meet this ALL new diesel cars must have a DPF fitted to comply.

I knew I was buying a car with a DPF. With my mileage its not an issue and my oil level doesnt rise as others report.

Will the DPF kill the diesel ? Who knows, all I can say is that its no issue on mine at all after nearly 18000 miles. I remember all the doomsaying over the catalytic convertor..........came to nothing.

People have very real issues with some of these DPF engines. Notably the 1.6CR which this posting is originally about although its digressed somewhat. I would take in to account how many diesel cars with DPF are now sold in the UK against how many have problems. Is it greater than would otherwise be if they didnt have a DPF ?

[Boustrophedon]

I have had my Fabia 1.6 CR TDi for about a month now and I am just coming up to the thousand mile mark. Mpg in the mid 50s to low 60s, so not too displeased with that. Performance is excellent, overtaking swift, ride good. Actually I am really chuffed.

I am however concerned with the DPF and the regeneration. I could feel the heat in the car, and the under bonnet temperature was incredible, the plastic cover on the engine was too hot touch, but fair dos it wasn't actually melting or getting soft. I phoned my dealer and they said it was "normal". I would be worried if that happened in the summer.

Should the exhaust pipe, where it exits the turbo have some sort of insulation over it?

So far I have been on holiday and I have not done my commuting run, which is 16 miles each way, half country lanes/ town, half A-road. Given that pattern of use, the comments regarding the DFP on this thread now have me worried. You may wonder why given that mileage, I bought a diesel, the reason being that I can easily add another 250miles at weekends..

'Don.

[raisbeck]

I have had my Fabia 1.6 CR TDi for about a month now and I am just coming up to the thousand mile mark. Mpg in the mid 50s to low 60s, so not too displeased with that. Performance is excellent, overtaking swift, ride good. Actually I am really chuffed.

I am however concerned with the DPF and the regeneration. I could feel the heat in the car, and the under bonnet temperature was incredible, the plastic cover on the engine was too hot touch, but fair dos it wasn't actually melting or getting soft. I phoned my dealer and they said it was "normal". I would be worried if that happened in the summer.

Should the exhaust pipe, where it exits the turbo have some sort of insulation over it?

So far I have been on holiday and I have not done my commuting run, which is 16 miles each way, half country lanes/ town, half A-road. Given that pattern of use, the comments regarding the DFP on this thread now have me worried. You may wonder why given that mileage, I bought a diesel, the reason being that I can easily add another 250miles at weekends..

'Don.

I dont know about the 1.6 CR but my 1.4 PD DPF engine does have heat shields around the DPF area, not actually attached to the DPF or ducting but around it to reflect the heat I guess. Mine usually regens while travelling at some speed and I dont really notice any extra heat or smell. I did get a slight wiff when slowing down in a town section during a regen.

You have had your car for a month and a thousand miles. If the DPF was going to block with your journeys it would have done so by now. I can only offer opinion here but I would say the mileage you state should be sufficient to keep the old soot burner happy. Especially given that you take it for longer runs over the weekend.

Like I said previously, I have had no problems. Many thousands of the 1.6 CR also have no problems. Its easy to find horror stories on the net about DPF issues because nobody ever goes onlne to post " Hey my DPF is working perfectly"

[percymon]

So the manual states the 1.6 77kw engine (105 bhp) is capable of 4.2 ltr per 100 km 67mpg on a flat road with one driver and nothing turned on.

And my Golf will do this at around 65-70mph, air con on or off - steady state running is easy, its all the non uniform use thats killing the economy.

[Boustrophedon]

Quick update, managed 61 mpg on way to work this morning, so well chuffed.