Windscreen washer fluid - polycarbonates & methanol?

[docc]

Handbook Yeti warning:

 

 

■ If the vehicle is fitted with a headlight cleaning system, only cleaning products
which do not attack the polycarbonate coating of the headlights must be added
to the windscreen washer fluid.

 

 

Methanol-containing fluids are no longer sold now, I believe, but there are a lot still around - including mine (and I have a fair bit of it!).

 

Does anyone have any knowledge as to whether these fluids (containing usually around 25% methanol) are safe to use with polycarbonates?  My guess (aided by some online research) is that they're fine, but if someone has the definitive answer, I'd appreciate it.

[Llanigraham]

This table:

 

http://www.theplasticshop.co.uk/plastic_technical_data_sheets/polycarbonate_tube_chemical_resistance_guide.pdf

 

shows that polycarbonate is NOT resistant to methanol, and therefore it shouldn't be used.

[sniperkona]

Other chemicals such as Isopropyl Alcohol and Ethanol have very little effect on the surface of the Polycarbonate. We even recommend that our anti-reflective coatings be sprayed with a 70% Isopropyl Alcohol solution to remove fingerprints.from a clever clogs book

[Llanigraham]

But "ethanol" and "methanol" are NOT the same thing, and "docc" clearly states methanol.

 

The link I posted above clearly states that Ethanol is safe, but Methanol isn't.

[docc]

Thanks - probably safer to avoid using any fluids containing methanol (methyl alcohol), then - though there are conflicting online references.

 

Damn - car fully loaded with the stuff now, and no way of getting it out!

 

Just out of curiosity (and this will seem a daft question) how do the headlights actually get washed?  I can't see any outlets for the fluid anywhere near them.

[Huskoda]

Certain models (all with Xenon headlights) have pop up washer jets just infront of the lights. They're easy to spot.

 

Its the rectangle on the bumper at the bottom of this picture:

 

 

They don't really wash as much as spray and soak pedestrians and cyclists.

[docc]

Certain models (all with Xenon headlights) have pop up washer jets just infront of the lights. They're easy to spot.

 

Its the rectangle on the bumper at the bottom of this picture:

 

 

 

They don't really wash as much as spray and soak pedestrians and cyclists.

Thanks - I wondered if it was those, but they looked immovable!

[speedsport]

Thanks - I wondered if it was those, but they looked immovable!

 

They simply push out from the bumper with the pressure of the water. You can pull them forward yourself (but not too far) when cleaning your car, & you'll see the washer jet on the back of 'em.

[Frenchtone]

isn't it a function of contact time, if moving little contact time because of wind/rain etc if stopped possibly a greater risk - regards the fluid loaded pull out filter and try to push a piece of hose pipe down, turn on supply, will dilute(eventually) bottle contents and as such reduce the overall effect, think the effect of methanol would be full strength with immersion as well!

[BobbyG79]

Can't you just use up all the fluid through your rear wiper?

[docc]

isn't it a function of contact time, if moving little contact time because of wind/rain etc if stopped possibly a greater risk - regards the fluid loaded pull out filter and try to push a piece of hose pipe done turn on supply will dilute(eventually) bottle contents and as such reduce the overall effect think the effect of methanol would be full strength with immersion as well!

I'm sure you're right.  The fluid started off as a 25% methanol concentration in the manufacturer's container, and after further dilution with water it's actually around 3% now in the vehicle.  I doubt a 3% concentration is going to create any problems whilst these 3 litres are in the car, but to be sure, I'll wash the headlamps with plain water occasionally.

[Sporky McGuffin]

They don't really wash as much as spray and soak pedestrians and cyclists.

 

 

They are useful when the roads are heavily salted though - before the Yeti I had an Avensis which seemed to particularly attract the stuff; it'd get to the point where on a 27-mile commute back home from work the headlamps would be so coated in salt that it wasn't possible to drive down unlit roads. And that's exactly when you least want to get out to clean them with a bottle of water and a cloth...

[Llanigraham]

Certain models (all with Xenon headlights) have pop up washer jets just infront of the lights. They're easy to spot.

 

Its the rectangle on the bumper at the bottom of this picture:

 

 

They don't really wash as much as spray and soak pedestrians and cyclists.

 

Funny, but I find mine remarkably effective in cleaning the headlights!

[GreenlineIIEstate]

Certain models (all with Xenon headlights) have pop up washer jets just infront of the lights. They're easy to spot.

 

Its the rectangle on the bumper at the bottom of this picture:

 

 

 

They don't really wash as much as spray and soak pedestrians and cyclists.

 

My Black edition does not have Xenons but it DOES have washers.

[Llanigraham]

My Black edition does not have Xenons but it DOES have washers.

 

SE and above spec get washers, no matter what lights are fitted.

[eribaMotters]

Thanks - probably safer to avoid using any fluids containing methanol (methyl alcohol), then - though there are conflicting online references.

 

Damn - car fully loaded with the stuff now, and no way of getting it out!

 

Just out of curiosity (and this will seem a daft question) how do the headlights actually get washed?  I can't see any outlets for the fluid anywhere near them.

Can't you syphon the washer fluid resevoir, or squirt the washers until they run dry.The later should work fine if headlamps are not on as they only get washed if they are on.. [sE spec facelift model anyway]

 

Colin

Edited 9 January, 2015 by eribaMotters

[docc]

Appreciating all the helpful advice on this.  Puzzled now, though (looking for alternatives at a reasonable price) by this data sheet extract from the VW/Quantum product:

 

QUANTUM PREMIUM SCREENWASH CONCENTRATE
1. Identifi cation of the Substance/Mixture and Company/Undertaking
1.1. Product identifi er
Product Name: Quantum Premium Screenwash Concentrate
Product Number: ZGBOOQPSWC100, ZGBOOQPSWC01L, ZGBOOQPSWC05L
1.2. Relevant identifi ed uses of the substance or mixture and uses advised against
Identifi ed uses: All purpose automotive windscreen cleaner.
Uses advised against: This product is not recommended for any industrial, professional or consumer use
other than the identifi ed uses stated above.
1.3. Details of the supplier of the safety data sheet
Supplier: Quantum
Quantum is a registered trade mark of Volkswagen Group United Kingdom Limited. Yeomans Drive,
Blakeland, Milton Keynes MK14 5AN.
Emergency Telephone Number: +44 (0) 1908 601601
2. Hazards Identifi cation
2.1. Classifi cation of the substance or mixture
Classifi cation (1999/45/EEC): Xn;R20/21/22, R68/20/21/22. R10.
2.2. Label elements
Contains: ETHANOL
Labelling: METHANOL
Detergent Labelling: < 5% perfumes
Labelling: See symbol opposite.
Risk Phrases
R10: Flammable

 

 

3. Composition/Information on Ingredients
3.2. Mixtures
2-BUTOXYETHANOL: 1-5%
CAS Number: 111-76-2 EC Number: 203-905-0
Classifi cation (EC 1272/2008) Classifi cation (67/548/EEC)
Acute Tox. 4 - H302 Xn;R20/21/22
Acute Tox. 4 - H312 Xi;R36/38
Acute Tox. 4 - H332
Skin Irrit. 2 - H315
Eye Irrit. 2 - H319
ETHANEDIOL: 1-5%
CAS Number: 107-21-1 EC Number: 203-473-3
Classifi cation (EC 1272/2008) Classifi cation (67/548/EEC)
Acute Tox. 4 - H302 Xn;R22
ETHANOL: 10-30%
CAS Number: 64-17-5 EC Number: 200-578-6
Classifi cation (EC 1272/2008) Classifi cation (67/548/EEC)
Flam. Liq. 2 - H225 F;R11
METHANOL: 5-10%
CAS Number: 67-56-1 EC Number: 200-659-6
Classifi cation (EC 1272/2008) Classifi cation (67/548/EEC)
Flam. Liq. 2 - H225 F;R11
Acute Tox. 3 - H301 T;R23/24/25,R39/23/24/25
Acute Tox. 3 - H311
Acute Tox. 3 - H331
STOT SE 1 - H370
The Full Text for all R-Phrases and Hazard Statements are Displayed in Section 16.

 

http://quantum.thetradepartsspecialists.co.uk/uploads/575/ZGB00QPSWC100,_ZGB00QPSWC01L,_ZGB00QPSWC05L_-_SDS.pdf

 

Since this product contains Methanol, and Methanol is supposed to be incompatible with Polycarbonates, how does that work? 

[Llanigraham]

Pass!

[Paul52]

If I'm reading the table Graham provided correctly this is the effect of Methanol and Ethanol when held in a polycarbonate tube for 6 days at different temperatures. So with an infrequent spray across the headlights is it really going to do any damage? Assuming it's one of the proprietary brands at the recommended concentration and you aren't brewing something up in the shed to your own formula. (And on this forum I'm not sure it doesn't happen!!  ). On the basis of that table I would have thought if it was going to do any damage it would first materialise in the summer in the tubing between the washer bottle and the jets and if that was the case we would be hearing about it by now. I'm a natural pessimist and neurotic but in this case I'd say "Don't worry about it" there far more important things to worry about. Which brings me to tyres.......

[g6zru]

Appreciating all the helpful advice on this.  Puzzled now, though (looking for alternatives at a reasonable price) by this data sheet extract from the VW/Quantum product:

 

QUANTUM PREMIUM SCREENWASH CONCENTRATE

1. Identifi cation of the Substance/Mixture and Company/Undertaking

1.1. Product identifi er

Product Name: Quantum Premium Screenwash Concentrate

Product Number: ZGBOOQPSWC100, ZGBOOQPSWC01L, ZGBOOQPSWC05L

1.2. Relevant identifi ed uses of the substance or mixture and uses advised against

Identifi ed uses: All purpose automotive windscreen cleaner.

Uses advised against: This product is not recommended for any industrial, professional or consumer use

other than the identifi ed uses stated above.

1.3. Details of the supplier of the safety data sheet

Supplier: Quantum

Quantum is a registered trade mark of Volkswagen Group United Kingdom Limited. Yeomans Drive,

Blakeland, Milton Keynes MK14 5AN.

Emergency Telephone Number: +44 (0) 1908 601601

2. Hazards Identifi cation

2.1. Classifi cation of the substance or mixture

Classifi cation (1999/45/EEC): Xn;R20/21/22, R68/20/21/22. R10.

2.2. Label elements

Contains: ETHANOL

Labelling: METHANOL

Detergent Labelling: < 5% perfumes

Labelling: See symbol opposite.

Risk Phrases

R10: Flammable

 

 

3. Composition/Information on Ingredients

3.2. Mixtures

2-BUTOXYETHANOL: 1-5%

CAS Number: 111-76-2 EC Number: 203-905-0

Classifi cation (EC 1272/2008) Classifi cation (67/548/EEC)

Acute Tox. 4 - H302 Xn;R20/21/22

Acute Tox. 4 - H312 Xi;R36/38

Acute Tox. 4 - H332

Skin Irrit. 2 - H315

Eye Irrit. 2 - H319

ETHANEDIOL: 1-5%

CAS Number: 107-21-1 EC Number: 203-473-3

Classifi cation (EC 1272/2008) Classifi cation (67/548/EEC)

Acute Tox. 4 - H302 Xn;R22

ETHANOL: 10-30%

CAS Number: 64-17-5 EC Number: 200-578-6

Classifi cation (EC 1272/2008) Classifi cation (67/548/EEC)

Flam. Liq. 2 - H225 F;R11

METHANOL: 5-10%

CAS Number: 67-56-1 EC Number: 200-659-6

Classifi cation (EC 1272/2008) Classifi cation (67/548/EEC)

Flam. Liq. 2 - H225 F;R11

Acute Tox. 3 - H301 T;R23/24/25,R39/23/24/25

Acute Tox. 3 - H311

Acute Tox. 3 - H331

STOT SE 1 - H370

The Full Text for all R-Phrases and Hazard Statements are Displayed in Section 16.

 

http://quantum.thetradepartsspecialists.co.uk/uploads/575/ZGB00QPSWC100,_ZGB00QPSWC01L,_ZGB00QPSWC05L_-_SDS.pdf

 

Since this product contains Methanol, and Methanol is supposed to be incompatible with Polycarbonates, how does that work?  

You read too much.   I'm a very trusting person, I rarely read labels, I even believe that 99.9 of all known germs are killed by ********' or whatever it was!

I've used Lidl concentrated suitable diluted (all right, I did read that label) on both my Yetis and no problem with light lens, yet!

 

Fred

[crazyj]

Hi Guys,

I'm with Fred and Paul.

I wouldn't worry about it. The table refers to neat solvent. Since water and methanol mix really well and methanol evaporates faster than water the odd bottle full of diluted methanol containing wash isn't going to do much harm.

This disclaimer is to stop a berk putting really concentrated industrial methanol in their washer bottle.

Although I prob would avoid using high methanol washes in the long run as it's hard to second guess the effect of repeated, even fleeting exposure if there is enough in it for years and years. My guess it would eventually leach the light stabiliser and plasticiser additive from the polycarbonate and it would eeevveeennntttuuuaalllyyy go yellow and brittle.

The quantum product's main ingredient is water (over 50%) with the main anti freeze being ethanol with methanol added to stop folk drinking it (plus a glycol and an ether).

I think it has a legal basis; HM Customs and revenue demand that ethanol (and its solutions) is/are 'poisoned' or 'denatured' with something to make it undrinkable or you would pay duty on it. The oldest and cheapest 'denaturant' is methanol. (Hence methylated spirits is ethanol with methanol (plus dye and foul tasting amine) added. )

It is prob ok for vw to recommend the quantum stuff as the methanol is in such low levels.

Funny I have noticed how much screenwash my yeti (inc headlight washers) uses compared to other cars I have had. Before this post I was contemplating making my own wash with the cheap ethanol biofuel you see on ebay.... Prob won't now as I guess it will be really rough mixture with stacks of methanol an all sorts in it... Ah perhaps I am the berk the disclaimer is aimed at? Lesson learned.

Hmmm .

J

Edited 9 January, 2015 by crazyj

[Dinski]

Why not just use some sealant on your headlights next time you clean it, a product like Hellshine abyss will protect the lights for a few months and you will find they stay cleaner a lot longer.

Just a thought....

It works for me.

[fastestlouigie]

The Aldi 5L tubs of screen wash are great. Branded Auto XS (but it's from Aldi), they are £1.99 but occasionally on "offer" even cheaper. I bought my last 5 tubs for £1.29 each! 'Don't know if it's got any Methanol in it though, as there's no ingredients list but it just seems to get my headlights (and windscreen) squeaky clean with no discernable damage. I've been using this since my original screen wash ran out in winter 2013.

[speedsport]

The Aldi 5L tubs of screen wash are great. Branded Auto XS (but it's from Aldi), they are £1.99 but occasionally on "offer" even cheaper. I bought my last 5 tubs for £1.29 each! 'Don't know if it's got any Methanol in it though, as there's no ingredients list but it just seems to get my headlights (and windscreen) squeaky clean with no discernable damage. I've been using this since my original screen wash ran out in winter 2013.

If I lived in a hard water area, I would be more concerned with the fan jets "furring" up when using inferior washer liquid.

VW/Quantum is specifically formulated to retain solids in suspension and not clog up the fan jets. Aldi's Auto XS concentrated additive is similarly stated to be formulated for fan jets.

Not all others are suitable, though how long it would take before you noticed a problem I have really no idea.

 

Thankfully I live in a soft water area - so there's no problem, yet plenty of people around here still buy the stuff for descaling their domestic kettle; the water is so soft they don't scale up in the first place. The power of advertising!

Edited 10 January, 2015 by speedsport

[muddyboots]

 

They are useful when the roads are heavily salted though - before the Yeti I had an Avensis which seemed to particularly attract the stuff; it'd get to the point where on a 27-mile commute back home from work the headlamps would be so coated in salt that it wasn't possible to drive down unlit roads. And that's exactly when you least want to get out to clean them with a bottle of water and a cloth...

 

I find that the Xenon headlights help in this respect, the lenses don't get as warm as those of halogen units, and don't dry the salt on as much.