So I went and bought a Jaaaag

[Lady Elanore]

The little numberplate looks like a staple across a pair of butt cheeks  

 

Why couldn't they have made it 80% the size overall :( I suspect the next M2 will also be a bit lardy :( Might as well go buy a big old Mustang before it's too late to enjoy a great sounding engine. The Mach 1 looks great and from what I've read on some M3/4 forums there might be one or two people jump ship, especially after the lean financial years many of us have had. 

 

[Lady Elanore]

So here is a question... as a petrolhead, definitely not a 'Batthead' (is that a thing or have I have imagined that term for 'leccy powered car owners?) and in this case, not a dervhead, what is most important in a car to an enthusiast? You might have to bear with me a little on this, so probably best get a cup of tea if you intend reading on.

 

over the many years, I've bought cars based on the usual factors, handling, power, soundtrack, looks and interior stuff, but until recently I've been able to mix and match the variation of these factors prevalence as my heart and purse-strings allowed. I have always put acceleration pretty high up in my 'want' category, it's the easiest and most accessible of the kinetic...or fun... factors in a quick car, of course handling is important too and so sometimes I've bought a car that was quick in a straight line, but a little lacking in the handling department (Fiat Uno Turbo ie mk 2-boosted) or handled well but was a tad slow (Fiat X1/9 - but so pretty), but the excess of one factor balanced out the lacking of another, at least in the enjoyment stakes-if not necessarily the nerve shredding understeer of the Uno Turbo  Some cars have looked great, handled well and performed well (Mk1 Clio 16v) or accelerated like a stabbed rat, hung on tenaciously but had the interior like  a 1970s Toyota (Subaru Impreza Turbo Mk1-the interior was less interesting than watching 2 people playing noughts and crosses, 'first to a thousand'). But one thing remained constant, at least in my eyes, most of my fun cars, have had interesting engines.

 

My Beta Coupe had a twin cam when Ford were still churning out the single OHC Escorts, my Clio had a revvy 16v when the 205Gti had an 8v. Of course the Subarus had those interesting Boxers, my Strada 130TC had the twin 40s snorting away when the rest of the world were going to civilised injection, my M135 and M4 have a creamy straight 6 with ...er..."good pick up" to quote a great movie, even my 123D BMW had the worlds first twin turbo 4 cylinder diesel and the first production one to break 100bhp per litre and have an alloy cylinder head (I wasn't going to mention diesel, but it's my thread). Anyhoo, I like a nice engine, but all the ones I would like to own are 6 cylinders and upwards. This has become a big problem. Now that petrol cars are becoming pariahs, small 4 cylinder and 3 cylinder engines are making their way into more and more big cars. Plus all cars are getting bigger with every generation. The new M4 is massive, it is also heavy and really expensive. The new C class only has 4 cylinder engines, no 6 or 8 cylinder versions will appear ever again. The RS5 and RS4 is also big and lardy and no doubt will have a 5 cylinder at best in the next iteration. Basically you will be lucky to have a 4 cylinder engine in a fast, yet small car, that doesn't have some lumpen great battery pack stuffed into it somewhere. It's the future and it's coming to a street near you soon.

 

All this has made me realise that acceleration is not the most important thing for me by a long stretch, after all 'leccy cars are ballistic in a straight line. It's not the level of grip that really matters that much-apart from a safety aspect of course-'leccy cars do tend to have super low centres of gravity. It's the soundtrack and the ability to modulate the cars behaviour with you right foot (other feet are available) that excites me. Lighter weight, at least compared to forthcoming cars, means change of direction is easier and more fun, 'leccy cars have their weight spread out of a long section for the car, so their polar momentum isn't so great, even if the centre of gravity is. There isn't anything wrong with 4 cylinder engines (3 cylinder ones can sound great) and my next car may well be a small 4 cylinder one, but it's not what I want and I can't have what I desire any more, at least on my budget. An A45S is no doubt a fantastic car and one I could easily live with, except it sounds like an electric toothbrush that's been swallowed by a cow...and that cow is standing in the next field. An RS3 goes really well and even doesn't understeer too much these days, but they have killed the soundtrack with filters. There is the Alpine which admittedly is a great looking and handling car, but like the current Boxster/Caymen has a plain old 4 cylinder. I want more in a new car!!! 

 

All this had led me to the odd position of thinking about Mustangs. In a years time my M4 will be gone and although times have been a little tough of late, I am hoping by then I will be in a financial position to get a new car and besides it's nice to fantasise. Normally I wouldn't have dreamt of something so big (which I hate) quite heavy (which I hate) Suspect handling via youtube infamous oversteer (which I don't mind so much as long as I win), rubbish fuel economy (not a fan) dodgy recycled plastic looking interior (it is American) not as quick in a straight line as I would like (scream if you want to go faster) and some unusual choices in design (10 speed auto anyone?). BUT, it has that engine and that engine makes that sound (apparently there is a 2.3 engine, but I believe this is false news and sent to scare us). So finally I have come to my rambling point. The noise an engine makes appears to be the most important thing to my car buying purchase. I am amazed, I thought it would be handling or some such. I am basically the automotive fan equivalent of a McDonald's 'loyalty queen' customer.

 

So if we all had a similar standard Eurobox designed car - and you can assume it does everything quite well and safely - which one option of individuality would you add to it, what is most important to you?  You can only pick one!

• Handling (however you like it)
• Roadholding
• Acceleration
• Braking
• Off-road ability (includes simple 4x4 option for those who live where it snows a lot and it's hilly) 
• Interior quality
• Interior toys
• Exterior looks
• Exterior functionality (think tough Landrover Defender)
• Space (more)
• Weight (less - or more if you want to tow)
• Fuel consumption
• Sound (includes subtle vibrations of engine were appropriate)
• Running costs

[Warrior193]

1 hour ago, Lady Elanore said:

So here is a question... as a petrolhead, definitely not a 'Batthead' (is that a thing or have I have imagined that term for 'leccy powered car owners?) and in this case, not a dervhead, what is most important in a car to an enthusiast? You might have to bear with me a little on this, so probably best get a cup of tea if you intend reading on.

 

over the many years, I've bought cars based on the usual factors, handling, power, soundtrack, looks and interior stuff, but until recently I've been able to mix and match the variation of these factors prevalence as my heart and purse-strings allowed. I have always put acceleration pretty high up in my 'want' category, it's the easiest and most accessible of the kinetic...or fun... factors in a quick car, of course handling is important too and so sometimes I've bought a car that was quick in a straight line, but a little lacking in the handling department (Fiat Uno Turbo ie mk 2-boosted) or handled well but was a tad slow (Fiat X1/9 - but so pretty), but the excess of one factor balanced out the lacking of another, at least in the enjoyment stakes-if not necessarily the nerve shredding understeer of the Uno Turbo  Some cars have looked great, handled well and performed well (Mk1 Clio 16v) or accelerated like a stabbed rat, hung on tenaciously but had the interior like  a 1970s Toyota (Subaru Impreza Turbo Mk1-the interior was less interesting than watching 2 people playing noughts and crosses, 'first to a thousand'). But one thing remained constant, at least in my eyes, most of my fun cars, have had interesting engines.

 

My Beta Coupe had a twin cam when Ford were still churning out the single OHC Escorts, my Clio had a revvy 16v when the 205Gti had an 8v. Of course the Subarus had those interesting Boxers, my Strada 130TC had the twin 40s snorting away when the rest of the world were going to civilised injection, my M135 and M4 have a creamy straight 6 with ...er..."good pick up" to quote a great movie, even my 123D BMW had the worlds first twin turbo 4 cylinder diesel and the first production one to break 100bhp per litre and have an alloy cylinder head (I wasn't going to mention diesel, but it's my thread). Anyhoo, I like a nice engine, but all the ones I would like to own are 6 cylinders and upwards. This has become a big problem. Now that petrol cars are becoming pariahs, small 4 cylinder and 3 cylinder engines are making their way into more and more big cars. Plus all cars are getting bigger with every generation. The new M4 is massive, it is also heavy and really expensive. The new C class only has 4 cylinder engines, no 6 or 8 cylinder versions will appear ever again. The RS5 and RS4 is also big and lardy and no doubt will have a 5 cylinder at best in the next iteration. Basically you will be lucky to have a 4 cylinder engine in a fast, yet small car, that doesn't have some lumpen great battery pack stuffed into it somewhere. It's the future and it's coming to a street near you soon.

 

All this has made me realise that acceleration is not the most important thing for me by a long stretch, after all 'leccy cars are ballistic in a straight line. It's not the level of grip that really matters that much-apart from a safety aspect of course-'leccy cars do tend to have super low centres of gravity. It's the soundtrack and the ability to modulate the cars behaviour with you right foot (other feet are available) that excites me. Lighter weight, at least compared to forthcoming cars, means change of direction is easier and more fun, 'leccy cars have their weight spread out of a long section for the car, so their polar momentum isn't so great, even if the centre of gravity is. There isn't anything wrong with 4 cylinder engines (3 cylinder ones can sound great) and my next car may well be a small 4 cylinder one, but it's not what I want and I can't have what I desire any more, at least on my budget. An A45S is no doubt a fantastic car and one I could easily live with, except it sounds like an electric toothbrush that's been swallowed by a cow...and that cow is standing in the next field. An RS3 goes really well and even doesn't understeer too much these days, but they have killed the soundtrack with filters. There is the Alpine which admittedly is a great looking and handling car, but like the current Boxster/Caymen has a plain old 4 cylinder. I want more in a new car!!! 

 

All this had led me to the odd position of thinking about Mustangs. In a years time my M4 will be gone and although times have been a little tough of late, I am hoping by then I will be in a financial position to get a new car and besides it's nice to fantasise. Normally I wouldn't have dreamt of something so big (which I hate) quite heavy (which I hate) Suspect handling via youtube infamous oversteer (which I don't mind so much as long as I win), rubbish fuel economy (not a fan) dodgy recycled plastic looking interior (it is American) not as quick in a straight line as I would like (scream if you want to go faster) and some unusual choices in design (10 speed auto anyone?). BUT, it has that engine and that engine makes that sound (apparently there is a 2.3 engine, but I believe this is false news and sent to scare us). So finally I have come to my rambling point. The noise an engine makes appears to be the most important thing to my car buying purchase. I am amazed, I thought it would be handling or some such. I am basically the automotive fan equivalent of a McDonald's 'loyalty queen' customer.

 

So if we all had a similar standard Eurobox designed car - and you can assume it does everything quite well and safely - which one option of individuality would you add to it, what is most important to you?  You can only pick one!

• Handling (however you like it)
• Roadholding
• Acceleration
• Braking
• Off-road ability (includes simple 4x4 option for those who live where it snows a lot and it's hilly) 
• Interior quality
• Interior toys
• Exterior looks
• Exterior functionality (think tough Landrover Defender)
• Space (more)
• Weight (less - or more if you want to tow)
• Fuel consumption
• Sound (includes subtle vibrations of engine were appropriate)
• Running costs

I tend to agree with you on the soundtrack - the off-beat of a reasonably big V8 is the best IMO. But my choice would be road-holding (as I'm allowed only 1 choice) - with moderate power oversteer available.

[Lady Elanore]

Not sure you can have both, as your Eurobox would only have standard power :p 

 

I also didn't mention that your Eurobox was RWD as standard, but I think you assumed that anyway  

[Lady Elanore]

The more I think about it, the more I figure my thoughts on things like sound being important, are probably to do with the fact we can't go anywhere without the nanny police watching our every move (which is of course perfectly within the law) the ever diminishing speed limits and roads becoming more difficult to navigate at pace with our every expanding mechanical waistlines. We are a smallish country with small roads, we need smaller cars (with big engines of course). So if I can't go anywhere quickly, my car is too big, it weighs too much to have proper fun, it might as well sound fabulous  

[Warrior193]

I wasn't really thinking Eurobox though, just something that went where it's pointed and can manage a decent corner without slowing to a crawl or disappearing into the scenery - with the Bullett/Vanishing Point soundtrack to go with it.

[Warrior193]

Just now, Warrior193 said:

I wasn't really thinking Eurobox though, just something that went where it's pointed and can manage a decent corner without slowing to a crawl or disappearing into the scenery - with the Bullett/Vanishing Point soundtrack to go with it.

Also don't mind LHD - although you really do need to be able to trust your co-driver when overtaking from 'our' side of the road.

[Lady Elanore]

That's the things though, we will all be driving Lego cars soon (probably not as much as that sounds) and as a bit of a rubbish thought experiment, I was asking what is the one thing that you would keep above all others. I figure as I will be driving slowly and with loads of auto-nanny systems controlling my max speed etc, it might as well sound great 

[Lady Elanore]

1 minute ago, Warrior193 said:

Also don't mind LHD - although you really do need to be able to trust your co-driver when overtaking from 'our' side of the road.

I hadn't thought of LHD, just RWD 

 

I drove a lot of LHD cars over here in the early noughties and it wasn't really a problem. You can certainly make a more elegant exit from your car as it parks against the kerb as standard  

[Warrior193]

4 minutes ago, Lady Elanore said:

I hadn't thought of LHD, just RWD 

 

I drove a lot of LHD cars over here in the early noughties and it wasn't really a problem. You can certainly make a more elegant exit from your car as it parks against the kerb as standard  

I mis-read that - I'll book my visit to SpecSavers!

[shyVRS245]

Just now, Warrior193 said:

I mis-read that - I'll book my visit to SpecSavers!

You will have to form an orderly queue behind the BMW grill designer.

[UndertheRadar]

The 2.3 unit is the St/RS eco boost unit. 
if I was only allowed one, it’s going to have to be comfort. Never thought about it much before I broke my spine, and now it’s at the top of my list. 
funnily enough, I had a roof vented RA years ago with the 280bhp boxer engine and factory seam welded body. Hated the interior, but what a noise!!

[Lady Elanore]

There is no 2.3 unit I tell you, it's a conspiracy along with the moon landing. Only 5.0V8 is available. "la la la la la la la la la la la la..." fingers in my ears "la la la la la la la..." 

 

 

I've gone la-la 

[UndertheRadar]

That V8 your buying has a really good sized boot. I was able to fit 2 small children in it and get it closed in the Ford showroom. 
probably as well I know the salesmen (saleswomen also available) and now that I think of it, maybe a bit weird they want to know how many bodies you could fit in it. 😂

My favourite V8 noise is always going to be the Merc 63 unit though. 

[Lady Elanore]

I think I prefer the non turbo sounds of V8s. I spent a lot of time in the old RS4 with the 4.2 V8 and it sounded tremendous. Likely as not I'll end up in a eurobarge next year and wave goodbye to silly cars, but I live in hope. It's a shame the M2 isn't coming out sooner, although who knows if that will get a straight 6  I'm on the verge of giving up on cars as anything more than transport I fear. George Clooney loves M4s btw, he told me so last night  

[skomaz]

Two comments...

 

There's a V8 Mustang near us that I saw regularly on the way home from work (when I was actually working in our office) and it did sound great (I used to wind down the window for a listen).  I've always liked big V's and my daughter could identify a TVR from noise alone when she was little   

 

A small capacity 3 pot can sound really nice too - my swift is only a one litre triple but has a real nice sound to it when you put your foot down - almost like a 6 (which isn't surprising given it's basically half one).

 

So...   I get the noise bit!

 

 

[UndertheRadar]

14 minutes ago, Lady Elanore said:

I think I prefer the non turbo sounds of V8s. I spent a lot of time in the old RS4 with the 4.2 V8 and it sounded tremendous. Likely as not I'll end up in a eurobarge next year and wave goodbye to silly cars, but I live in hope. It's a shame the M2 isn't coming out sooner, although who knows if that will get a straight 6  I'm on the verge of giving up on cars as anything more than transport I fear. George Clooney loves M4s btw, he told me so last night  

Generally when I see one of those NA units, it’s cause it needs rings. 😩

[Gaz]

1 hour ago, UndertheRadar said:

if I was only allowed one, it’s going to have to be comfort.

 

Have to agree - comfort (i.e. interior quality).  Any beautiful soundtrack, or impressive handling enjoyment is going to be very short-lived if it's too uncomfortable to live with.

 

Gaz

Edited 24 February, 2021 by Gaz_

[Lady Elanore]

I like triples, they do sound a bit like a straight 6 with extra "grrrr".

 

I haven't spent much time in electric cars but so far I hate them. I hate the bland Tesla interior and the lack of actual switchgear particularly. BMW are still the best out there in that regard (compared to their direct German competitors) but often get called out for a lack of innovation. If something is right, then why change it?

 

Electric cars also seem to lack soul, almost certainly because of the slight whine and lack of mechanical engine noise. People like steam locos because of the fact the engine was a living breathing thing (I have learnt not to call it a steam train). People love the Spitfire because of its engine sound (ok and also it's looks etc). People love muscle cars mainly because of their sound (they are generally awful to drive, until recently at least). Perhaps I'm overthinking it, but the push to electrification has made he wonder about this quite a bit and imagine what I will miss most in the next decade or so. We may well have attractive cars, great handling and roadholding, more performance than an overacting Clarkson, but the sound will be gone. Sure you can simulate the sound and many manufacturers current do to some extent, but the vibrations and slightly nonlinear way that an 'ice' car vibrates and responds is something that can't be simulated properly. Planet killers? maybe, life enhancers? definitely.

[bspman]

16 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

 I'm on the verge of giving up on cars as anything more than transport I fear.

 

I feel like I'm nearing this point now. It's just too much hassle. The limits around here are 20mph and there's usually a lot of traffic. It was a different story when I drove lots of twisty country roads.. but I'm local now.. and in retrospect going for a mk2 VRS was a silly idea. 

Should've just bough a people carrier

[Aspman]

I think it's more complex even than that. It's only recently I've become solvent enough to consider some nice motors.

And sitting in and driving lots of different cars it's funny the cars that give you the tingle that says "yeah I like this" and different cars do it in different ways.

 

Bike gave me the tingle like nothing else but they also terrified me. My ZXR400 would rev to 14k and do 0-60 in 4 sec with only 65hp, it howled and would take corners at speed that my brain couldn't cope with. I still love bikes but I wouldn't get a fast one, I'd last an hour.

 

My 335d was all about acceleration and heft. Also in some ways that car felt a little dangerous, it always felt like there was a gap between power and handling that made the car feel like it would quite like to kill you in fast corners. But the acceleration made me giggle maniacally the first time I drove it. It felt insane. The rest of the car was nice if a little uninteresting.

 

When I drove a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, it was again hilarious, it really felt like you could drive over anything in that car, it was a Tonka Toy for the road but it never felt like it was usable every day. It was rough round the edges, loud and wobbly. Fun for a short trip but it felt like it would be agony on a long one.

 

The RaRo isn't that fast, but saying that its 0-60 is about the same as my old VRS, but there was something about it that gave the tingle in the same way as the 335d, but it wasn't acceleration. I have had it offroad or at least down some tracks that would wreck a normal car, it is great fun in those conditions.

 

So i think it's more intengible, some cars just have it. I have to say I'd love a mustange but I think I'd find the interior a bit low rent. I did look carefully at a Rouche Mustang (750hp) but a pregnant partner and access to back seats killed that idea. Just the same as looking at an M4 comp had to go. M3s were overpriced in comparison.

I did lookmat an M5, that did give the tingle, but the depreciation was just too much to bear.

 

The RaRo will also tank in value but it fills all my needs right now whilst being a very nice place to be while driving, and it gives the tingle.

Edited 25 February, 2021 by Aspman

[PetrolDave]

17 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

I think I prefer the non turbo sounds of V8s. I spent a lot of time in the old RS4 with the 4.2 V8 and it sounded tremendous.

Especially when fitted with a non-resonated Milltek exhaust and with an MRC remap

[Lady Elanore]

Funnily enough it had a Miltek. Extraordinarily loud. Sounded like a really cross dinosaur 

[Ootohere]

@Lady Elanore not all EV,s make the whine or noise  that some have been landed with.  Even under hard acceleration.    There are times I need to shoo away people standing Infront of my car in car parks because I have started it and want to move and am not keen to roottoot at them.  As far as the traffic light grand Prix it is good sitting there making no noise and just put traction control off then accelerate away letting the big bore exhaust car in  the next lane as you leave then catching the pedestrians attention and catching you up at the next lights.  My car has no pedestrian warning noise up to 15 mph as supposedly required by law.

Edited 25 February, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[Lady Elanore]

I get why we need electric cars and I know I'll have to drive one full time one day, but I will miss the mechanical nature of ICE cars. Is digital sound better than analogue? Is film photography superior to digital? I guess it's a personal thing. When I am ruler of the earth all electric cars will have to make a noise like the Jetsons flying car. i actually would like that  Maybe it could be first implemented for low speed driving, ie for car parks and moving around junctions where pedestrians sometimes cut in as the stagger across the road