the truth about electric cars

[Graham Butcher]

I just came across this new video. Unlike over here, the ICE cars will become the rich people playthings, while we have the upper class of ICE cars and the best EVs being the playthings of the rich.

 

 

Edited 23 February by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

So?

The best cars & best classic / collector / investor and most expensive cars are right now.

Many of the most expensive BEV,s are just company cars on lease / never never.

 

Actually some people work up to the best and most expensive cars through their hobby and trading and are now in a higher earning bracket or tax band or getting help from their taxes to have these cars.

[Graham Butcher]

7 hours ago, wyx087 said:

What a strange and contradicting advice.

"The general rule of thumb is to plug in and charge whenever you can, but not every time you drive. "

 

My guess is someone who don't understand battery degradation trying to say don't keep doing small cycles at extreme SoC. Don't charge to 100% and drive 10 miles for the day and charge up again, effectively keeping it at extreme SoC.

 

But tests have shown small charge cycles near middle of the voltage range does not accelerate degradation, it is actually preferred charge practice.

(source: https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries)

 

I generally use 65-40% for my 60 miles commute and I do plug it in daily without thinking, just rely on in-car charge limiter and timer to keep it at 65% for my next commute. Bump it up for weekends if needed. It doesn't need overthinking, just make it a habit of plugging in.

Sounds perfectly feasible, I think that a lot of phone batteries suffer because people charge them overnight to 100% so that they last the whole net day and then pop them on charge again at night. Many people complain about their phone having poor battery life after only months of use, and this would explain the reason for it.

[wyx087]

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Hmm, it seems the situation in Ethiopia is not quite as clear-cut as you first thought. Reading those 2 links, it emerges that they are getting sick and tired of continually rising fuel cost for liquid fuel and also that the country is being used as a dumping ground for other people's out of date vehicles that no longer meet the latest standards for most civilised countries and also that most of the 2 million vehicles on their roads are over 20 years old.

 

They have not yet banned the imports, but are seriously considering doing so, according to the articles. They are considering introducing emission testing and vehicles that fail those tests will be banned from further servicing and must be removed from the road.

The bottom article does indeed not say non-EV are being banned.

 

However, the CleanTechnia article does have this quote:

"“A decision has been made that automobiles cannot enter Ethiopia unless they are electric ones,” stated Sime."

 

The below 2 article confirms that no more import license are granted for non-EV from Feb 2024 onwards:

https://research.hktdc.com/en/article/MTYxNzc4NzU5NQ

https://techpoint.africa/2024/02/08/ethiopia-ban-importation-fuel-powered-cars/

 

Expensive importing fossil fuel is certainly a good enough reason to go full EV. Renewable electricity removes all geo-political problems associated with constantly needing to import fossil fuel.

 

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

While researching this on the official website FAQ (bristolballoonfiesta.co.uk) it seems that is a completely free event and only need to pay for car parking at the launch site at Ashton Court, so any figure would be purely guesswork whereas RIAT can tell by how many actual tickets have been sold. Looking at various reports and news coverage of the balloon fest, it seems that the city estimated that the event could see a record 100,000 in spectators over the 3 days in 2024. While clearly not as big as RIAT, but still a big event, but RIAT is just 1 small airfield with extremely limited and poor road access.

Look, I'm not going to get into completely pointless "my event is bigger than yours".

 

But I did take a trip down memory lane, I visited in Aug 2013:

 

 

  

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Sounds perfectly feasible, I think that a lot of phone batteries suffer because people charge them overnight to 100% so that they last the whole net day and then pop them on charge again at night. Many people complain about their phone having poor battery life after only months of use, and this would explain the reason for it.

I use my iPhone 12 mini in the same way as my EV's. I have wireless charger around the house and at office. I see it dip below 50% I pop onto wireless charger for a bit. I try to stay out of 100% area and always above 20%.

 

It's been over 3 years since I got it, 120%-200% daily battery usage, so must be over 1500 cycles by now. Still 86% health and battery lasts more than long enough for me between times away from charger. If I'm heading out for whole day, I'll just bring a small power bank.

 

EV is the same, little and often. Get into habit of plug it in. It's super easy, barely an inconvenience.

[Graham Butcher]

@wyx087I'm just establishing the facts about the events to get the context right so that readers can see the complete picture correctly with the right supporting info, that's fair enough?

With regard to those Ethiopia articles, reading them both, they are claiming to be banning the import of non EV vehicles, but the same articles also suggest that it is not yet a done deal, charging infrastructure does not yet support large scale EV usage, and they hint at the real reason for considering such a ban is less to do with air quality, although they do mention it, but is more to the economics of the country struggling to pay for the liquid fuel which has to be imported. 

I was intrigued to dig further and uncovered some startling facts. 

Looking at the countries' vehicle stock they are, in large part, old, clapped out and poorly maintained like many of the countries in that part of the world.

 

Looking at other sites throws a different light on the real problems of the country, this one for example paints a very interesting picture List of countries and territories by motor vehicles per capita - Wikipedia. Countries by population is also interesting List of countries by population (United Nations) - Wikipedia as is countries by physical size List of countries by area - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

 

The average age of vehicles in Ethiopia is 20 years and almost all are imported as used cars, I guess from more developed countries' scrappage schemes Used Vehicles Survival Rates and Their Impacts on Urban Air Quality of Addis Ababa, Ethiopia (ijert.org) with new vehicles being largely restricted to government and international organisations.

 

Taking just 3 countries as examples, USA, UK and Ethiopia you can see the scale of the problems:-

 

Vehicles per 1,000 people. (195 countries)

USA has 908, UK has 600  and Ethiopia has 10 and the ranks USA - 7th, UK - 36th and Ethiopia - 189th.

 

Land size (197 countries)

USA - 4th, UK - 78th and Ethiopia - 26th.

 

Size of population rankings (197 countries)

USA - 3rd, UK - 21st and Ethiopia - 11th.

 

Given the above results, the public would appear to only have access to other countries scrapped vehicles so are second hand and the most polluting so if they go ahead and ban ICE vehicles being imported, they will still only have access to scrapped EVs from other countries the data would suggest.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if there is any validity to those 2 links you found, this link suggests Ethiopia: Freedom in the World 2022 Country Report | Freedom House that they may not be quite what they seem, it is an oppressive country and may be just posturing for the world stage?

 

Any thoughts

Edited 24 February by Graham Butcher

[lol-lol]

Charging at home to get quite a bit cheaper with big fall in electricity unit price in 35 days time................ 

Should save me about a quid of charging up ie down from a fiver for 200 miles to closer to £4 for a charge up ie back down to 2p a mile for energy as it was getting close to 2.5p per mile.   

 

Down 4.3p per kWh for the single tariff ie down 18% in the Midlands.   Just have to wait a few days to see what the day rate and night rate change to.  Daily charge up to 63p per day, up from 54p, scandalous.  Even worse in SW England at 67p a day ie £245 a year just for the supply of lecky.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/information-consumers/energy-advice-households/get-energy-price-cap-standing-charges-and-unit-rates-region

Electricity standing charges and unit rates paid by Direct Debit, single rate - 

Region	Daily standing charge   January to March 2024	Daily standing charge  April to June 2024	Unit rate  January to March 2024	Unit rate  April to June 2024
North West	51.79 pence per day	51.19 pence per day	28.44 pence per KWh	24.67 pence per KWh
Northern	57.44 pence per day	71.20 pence per day	27.81 pence per KWh	23.36 pence per KWh
Yorkshire	56.00 pence per day	67.44 pence per day	27.79 pence per KWh	23.36 pence per KWh
Northern Scotland	59.38 pence per day	61.10 pence per day	28.48 pence per KWh	24.96 pence per KWh
Southern	49.97 pence per day	63.33 pence per day	28.79 pence per KWh	24.66 pence per KWh
Southern Scotland	62.08 pence per day	63.31 pence per day	28.16 pence per KWh	23.97 pence per KWh
North Wales and Mersey	62.21 pence per day	67.04 pence per day	29.57 pence per KWh	25.42 pence per KWh
London	38.50 pence per day	40.79 pence per day	29.73 pence per KWh	25.72 pence per KWh
South East	47.56 pence per day	56.90 pence per day	29.38 pence per KWh	25.29 pence per KWh
Eastern	44.00 pence per day	49.92 pence per day	29.22 pence per KWh	25.26 pence per KWh
East Midlands	50.69 pence per day	56.00 pence per day	28.02 pence per KWh	23.77 pence per KWh
Midlands	54.36 pence per day	62.73 pence per day	28.12 pence per KWh	23.84 pence per KWh
Southern Western	58.68 pence per day	67.19 pence per day	28.43 pence per KWh	24.21 pence per KWh
South Wales	54.21 pence per day	63.26 pence per day	28.71 pence per KWh	24.51 pence per KWh
Great Britain average	53.35 pence per day	60.10 pence per day	28.62 pence per KWh	24.50 pence per KWh

 

Edited 24 February by lol-lol

[Graham Butcher]

It's about time as well, the wholesale price went down a while ago. I think there is still a good bit more that could be done but regulator stopped short and allowed them more profit. Still I suppose every little bit helps. 

[EnterName]

22 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Here is perhaps another angle that has been overlooked, with ICE we are all used to having to go to a garage to get our fuel, so maybe the lack of home charging for a huge slice of the population is not the dealbreaker? Maybe it is a combination of the higher costs in the first instance, the high cost of using public chargers, the speed of the chargers, and the higher insurance costs?

For me, home charging is a massive benefit of EVs. The prospect of not having to use public charging points would be a big incentive for me.

 

22 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Then there is maybe the fear factor, fear of being locked out of or in if the electrics fail which has been known, fear about the battery life, we all know that batteries do expire after a while, whereas an ICE, if serviced correctly will do hundreds of thousands of miles and not suffer the same degree of degradation in range or power that a battery does.

Concerns over EV longevity is a real concern for people like me, who keep their cars for a relatively long time. Several times I've read of people gushing praise over their new car, only to replace it a couple of years later.

I realise there are a variety of reasons for changing a car, but if I have a decent car, I hang onto it, so I find it odd for people to gush praise over a car they only plan to keep 2-3 years.

The prospect of only having 80% of the range it used to have after a few years ownership does not appeal to me.

[EnterName]

23 hours ago, EnterName said:

But if everyone who wants an EV has one, and if coercion is the only way to get most people to choose an EV over ICE, then there may be some political fallout for the governments doing the coercion.

18 hours ago, wyx087 said:

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/07/ethiopia-banning-non-electric-car-imports/

https://www.arenaev.com/ethiopia_is_ready_to_ban_ice_vehicles_immediately-news-3101.php

 

Ethiopia has completely banned import of all ICE vehicles last month. Simple, straight to the point.

There's that "coercion" I was talking about, though reading the Clean Technica article, it seems Ethiopia has been a bit of a dumping ground for knackered cars from Europeans countries, so the ban might not be as anti-ICE as it seems.

[wyx087]

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Any thoughts

Just like China, without worrying about loosing votes to loud minority, Ethiopia are able to effectively put in forward looking policies.

 

I can't see why you'd doubt the validity of multiple sources. You've done good research but none have disproven that they are continuing to import non-EV's.

 

2 hours ago, EnterName said:

There's that "coercion" I was talking about, though reading the Clean Technica article, it seems Ethiopia has been a bit of a dumping ground for knackered cars from Europeans countries, so the ban might not be as anti-ICE as it seems.

It looks like it's more about the country wanting to get out of that trap and stop importing expensive geopolitically dependent fuel. They are doing it the hard way, banning first, infrastructure after. From Graham's research, looks like it wouldn't be a problem for most people.

 

2 hours ago, EnterName said:

The prospect of only having 80% of the range it used to have after a few years ownership does not appeal to me.

You'd be happy to learn good EV's with high mileage have very low degradation.  (French article in OP though)

https://www.speakev.com/threads/real-life-use-of-ev-400k-km-tesla-m3-taxi.183374/

"taxi Mercedes EQC in Norway. After 240 000 km (150 000 miles) the degradation is only 8%"

 

After 9+ years, notoriously bad degrading battery in Nissan Leaf have 80% health. Modern EV's with thermal management degrade far less.

[lol-lol]

3 hours ago, EnterName said:

For me, home charging is a massive benefit of EVs. The prospect of not having to use public charging points would be a big incentive for me.

 

Concerns over EV longevity is a real concern for people like me, who keep their cars for a relatively long time. Several times I've read of people gushing praise over their new car, only to replace it a couple of years later.

I realise there are a variety of reasons for changing a car, but if I have a decent car, I hang onto it, so I find it odd for people to gush praise over a car they only plan to keep 2-3 years.

The prospect of only having 80% of the range it used to have after a few years ownership does not appeal to me.

 

Of our 3 cars, two hybrids and one pure EV, it is the ones with ICE that worry me fare more both in terms of something expensive going wrong and longevity.

 

I worked on a rolling road for a good while and ICE owners usually have no idea how much horsepower how much hp they have dropped after tens of thousands of miles.  That may not affect the range massively but certainly the acceleration and often oil consumption.  Loses of 10% to 25% were not unusual and trying to explain that 130 hp quoted at the engine with power train losses and losses due to mileage on the engine that they would be lucky to see 100 hp at the rear wheels. If we could up that by 10 or 20% power and toque they should focus on the increase not the disappointing net figure.

 

My Zoe is has air cooling to the battery pack and I can hear the fan kick in if the ambient is up around 30 C plus and I have given the car a bit of a flooring just before but the combination of this ai cooling and not allowing the charging to go above 125A ie 46 kWh, and mostly using the 3.6 kW charger at home, judging by reports by some of the 300,000 other Zoe owners the battery will have only a few percent loss over many year. Zoe has been around for over a decade and there are plenty of high mileage examples.

 

My cars with ICE as well as the hybrid system worry me much more, especially if I have outside manufacturer's warranty.    

Edited 24 February by lol-lol

[Graham Butcher]

53 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Of our 3 cars, two hybrids and one pure EV, it is the ones with ICE that worry me fare more both in terms of something expensive going wrong and longevity.

 

I worked on a rolling road for a good while and ICE owners usually have no idea how much horsepower how much hp they have dropped after tens of thousands of miles.  That may not affect the range massively but certainly the acceleration and often oil consumption.  Loses of 10% to 25% were not unusual and trying to explain that 130 hp quoted at the engine with power train losses and losses due to mileage on the engine that they would be lucky to see 100 hp at the rear wheels. If we could up that by 10 or 20% power and toque they should focus on the increase not the disappointing net figure.

 

My Zoe is has air cooling to the battery pack and I can hear the fan kick in if the ambient is up around 30 C plus and I have given the car a bit of a flooring just before but the combination of this ai cooling and not allowing the charging to go above 125A ie 46 kWh, and mostly using the 3.6 kW charger at home, judging by reports by some of the 300,000 other Zoe owners the battery will have only a few percent loss over many year. Zoe has been around for over a decade and there are plenty of high mileage examples.

 

My cars with ICE as well as the hybrid system worry me much more, especially if I have outside manufacturer's warranty.    

But doesn't the fact most ICE owners don't understand that HP does fade with time prove my point that having such massive HP to start with is not required. There was the EV announced the other day with 1100HP, why so high? 

[lol-lol]

35 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

But doesn't the fact most ICE owners don't understand that HP does fade with time prove my point that having such massive HP to start with is not required. There was the EV announced the other day with 1100HP, why so high? 

 

Massive horsepower is nice in either EVs or ICE cars if you want it and it does not badly affect your insurance.  In the motorcycle world there has been insurance tariffs, particularly in Germany ie one of few countries that one can apply hundreds or a thousand or two horsepower through the accelerator and waft yourself up to 200, 300, 350 kph.

 

As EVs are digital, where as nearly all ICE vehicles are analogue, and I I can only think of the Bugatti Veyron that actually displays the horsepower being deployed, whereas my Zoe and most EVs do this as a matter of routine, and my Zoe will oft display 111 kWs, which is 151 hp, even though the car is rated at 135 hp but it is a bit immaterial, think I would rather display the Nm of torque and the revs the single geared traction motor is revving to.  I would not expect the power to diminish in the way and ICE car does ie leaking piston rings, coking up even when the battery loses a few percent in its capacity due to chemical degradation.

 

EVs sometimes only give peak power for a few of seconds, 5s in the case of the Mach e GT and 2.5 second in the Taycan I gather. 

For Rolling Road tuning, working with race teams and even professional with marine engines producing tens of thousands of horsepower we are interesting in the area under the curve when one does a power versus time or revs and with road vehicles the in optimum gear power from gear change to gear change as this gives the maximum acceleration, with some influence with inertia of parts of course.  It is all about P= T 2 π n under the curve at any millisecond to optimise acceleration.  

 

Lord Nyland experience with the on paper powerful Mustang-e GT with its fleeting power. Grabs the headline but not so impressive to live with.

 

 

 

[EnterName]

10 hours ago, EnterName said:

The prospect of only having 80% of the range it used to have after a few years ownership does not appeal to me.

6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

I worked on a rolling road for a good while and ICE owners usually have no idea how much horsepower how much hp they have dropped after tens of thousands of miles.  That may not affect the range massively but certainly the acceleration and often oil consumption.  Loses of 10% to 25% were not unusual and trying to explain that 130 hp quoted at the engine with power train losses and losses due to mileage on the engine that they would be lucky to see 100 hp at the rear wheels. If we could up that by 10 or 20% power and toque they should focus on the increase not the disappointing net figure.

Apples and oranges, @lol-lol.

I'm worried about range reduction, you're talking about power losses.

Power losses are real, as is MPG loss, but not to the same degree as with EVs. Having sold my old 2006 Mondeo at 14 years old, the MPG was not noticeably different to when it was younger.

My 2010 Fiesta diesel has a long-term MPG of just under 60MPG. That's not bad for a 14 year-old car. I wonder what the range loss on an EV would be after 14 years?

[Ootohere]

^^^ Don't we all wonder, or could some not give a damn if all they do is run a company / fleet / rented car and change it every 3 years or less.

 

With a 14 year old diesel or even a Euro 5 diesel getting good economy then maybe the occasional charge if you need into a LEZ is no big deal.

 

It might be for those with keepers to worry if there are those with an EV, or used buyers, but then they can maybe get 'much cheapness'. 

 

Losing 20% of range or any amount being an issue with an EV is a very good reason not to get one then and nobody is going to make them.

They can just carry on driving what ever they want after 2035 from the millions of non EV,s there will be kicking about and paying what ever it costs to fuel and run them.

Hardly complicated. 

Maybe what is on sale in the way of BEV,s in 10 years  will be less likely to be losing range in the same way that some apparently lose range now. 

Some that is. 

Edited 24 February by Rooted

[lol-lol]

21 minutes ago, EnterName said:

Apples and oranges, @lol-lol.

I'm worried about range reduction, you're talking about power losses.

Power losses are real, as is MPG loss, but not to the same degree as with EVs. Having sold my old 2006 Mondeo at 14 years old, the MPG was not noticeably different to when it was younger.

My 2010 Fiesta diesel has a long-term MPG of just under 60MPG. That's not bad for a 14 year-old car. I wonder what the range loss on an EV would be after 14 years?

 

I think you may not be giving the EV car manufacturers enough credit about thinking ahead on this.  They do do lots of testing pre launch, try to do hundreds of thousands of kilometers to full test a car and in very harsh conditions, much harsher than the UK ie colder and hotter.

 

What EV makers have done, to varying degrees is to have buffers of extra charging capacity.  In my Zoe's case the battery is inferred to be 50 Kwh, the useable capacity is 52 kWh, the actual capacity is 55 kWh.  All controlled by the software. I think most EVs have over the air software reception and this could be amended, buffers released.

Toyota with their BZ4 got things very wrong but reconfigured the software to give much greater range.  The previous model of my Zoe ie ZE40 has actually about a quarter of the cells held in reserve that could be brought online so the range would stay similar to new many years down the years.  Some TESLA also it has been showed are built with far more battery than the owner might think and those reserves of battery cells can be brought online ig owner complains range has gone down by 10% so as if by magic the car regains is estimated full range.

 

Some EVs have just has a duff cell or two replaced and got back much range.  Others have received the battery pack from a new model and suddenly doubled or tripled their range and battery packs are falling in cost like a stone ie 10 or 20% per year.

 

I am far more worried that the price of petroleum spirit I put in my ICE cars is much effected by the whims of people like Putin and the Saudi and Jemmy the Hunt in his budget next week when at least I know the price of lecky is going down big time soon and if I fancy it I can make lots of lecky myself and can fill my EV. Don't think I can do that with oil.   

 

[lol-lol]

Here is a youtube vid of a Zoe, only about eight years old but had very close to original range, cost pittance to run, think he sold it for a grand profit a few weeks later.

 

 

Edited 24 February by lol-lol

[Graham Butcher]

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Massive horsepower is nice in either EVs or ICE cars if you want it and it does not badly affect your insurance.  In the motorcycle world there has been insurance tariffs, particularly in Germany ie one of few countries that one can apply hundreds or a thousand or two horsepower through the accelerator and waft yourself up to 200, 300, 350 kph.

 

Well correct me if I'm wrong, but last time I checked we were in the UK, and the speed limit here was 70mph max so with that in mind why the hell do we need to have that kind of HP or need to have that kind of speed that can be applied in seconds?. If you were hit another car doing speed it would be total carnage, possibly killing one or more people and for what? So you can say it's nice to have that massive HP regardless of if it's an ICE or EV, its not really green, is it?

 

I decided to test the water as far as insurance is concerned and there seems to be no logic in the way it works, I got quotes for the following cars, all 2nd hand, all under £14k, full comp. 1K excess, S&D 10,000 miles a year, car kept on road at home. I looked at Bentley Turbo R , £700 - 9K, Mercedes Benz E55 AMG, 1K-5.5K, Porsche 911, £750 -6.4K, current car, Skoda Superb £530 -5.2K, Tesla Model 3, 1.8K - 10K and a Range Rover Sport 2.4K - 10K. It does however seem that they hate Range Rovers and Electric cars.

[wyx087]

12 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

So you can say it's nice to have that massive HP regardless of if it's an ICE or EV, its not really green, is it?

In what aspect it isn't "green"? Not the colour obviously. But good percentage of grid is renewable and it's improving by the day.  EV have zero tailpipe emissions and very high efficiency compared to ICE. Of course no one is going to go pedal-to-the-metal everywhere all the time, so that burst of power will not affect greatly overall economy.

 

12 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I decided to test the water as far as insurance is concerned and there seems to be no logic in the way it works, I got quotes for the following cars, all 2nd hand, all under £14k, full comp. 1K excess, S&D 10,000 miles a year, car kept on road at home. I looked at Bentley Turbo R , £700 - 9K, Mercedes Benz E55 AMG, 1K-5.5K, Porsche 911, £750 -6.4K, current car, Skoda Superb £530 -5.2K, Tesla Model 3, 1.8K - 10K and a Range Rover Sport 2.4K - 10K. It does however seem that they hate Range Rovers and Electric cars.

You can buy Model 3 for under £15k these days!? Where?

 

Out of interest, what insurance price do you get with this ID3 for £14.5k? 

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202310042665642

Or one of these Hyundai Kona?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?advertising-location=at_cars&fuel-type=Electric&make=Hyundai&model=KONA&sort=price-asc

Expensive insurance might be a Tesla thing.

Edited 24 February by wyx087

[Graham Butcher]

The real problem as I see it, and it was discussed here the other day is how has the battery in the 2nd hand car that you're thinking about buying been treated before in its life, has it been regularly charged to 100% and allowed to drop below 20% or even to almost flat, has it been always charged at superfast DC rates etc. It is a real lottery.

 

Looking at it in real simple terms, the battery is simply the equivalent of a fuel tank and if you have a problem with a tank, it is easy to spot by the fact if you fill it passed the hole, the fuel drips on the ground and a replacement fuel tank is not going to thousands to replace. 

[Graham Butcher]

26 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

In what aspect it isn't "green"? Not the colour obviously. But good percentage of grid is renewable and it's improving by the day.  EV have zero tailpipe emissions and very high efficiency compared to ICE. Of course no one is going to go pedal-to-the-metal everywhere all the time, so that burst of power will not affect greatly overall economy.

 

You can buy Model 3 for under £15k these days!? Where?

 

Out of interest, what insurance price do you get with this ID3 for £14.5k? 

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202310042665642

Or one of these Hyundai Kona?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?advertising-location=at_cars&fuel-type=Electric&make=Hyundai&model=KONA&sort=price-asc

Expensive insurance might be a Tesla thing.

AS to the green bit, bigger HP means bigger engines and thus more emissions with ICE and EV more HP will create more tyre emissions?

 

OK, Model 3 is actually on offer at 15.5k but should be able to get it at 15K or less.

ID3, 1K - 5.7K and Kona comes out at 1.1K - 7K

Edited 24 February by Graham Butcher

[wyx087]

So EV's are about twice more expensive compared to similar power ICE (ID3/Knoa 200 to Superb 150?), probably important to note it's for your quoted situation only, it might be 4x more expensive for others for all we know!

 

 

57 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Looking at it in real simple terms, the battery is simply the equivalent of a fuel tank and if you have a problem with a tank, it is easy to spot by the fact if you fill it passed the hole, the fuel drips on the ground and a replacement fuel tank is not going to thousands to replace. 

It's a rather forced unfavourable comparison based solely on perceived function, not on actual function.

 

The stuff out of fuel tank cannot be directly used without another critical part of the car. The potential difference out of battery can be directly used by many parts of the car. Eg. You can't connect your in-car radiator to it, whereas you can connect PTC heaters to the HV battery. I'd say EV battery + motor is comparable to fuel tank + ICE.

 

Of course, arguing about replacement cost on something that is designed to last for lifetime of vehicle is all academic.

 

Edited 24 February by wyx087
typo

[Graham Butcher]

44 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

So EV's are about twice more expensive compared to similar power ICE (ID3/Knoa 200 to Superb 150?), probably important to note it's for your quoted situation only, it might be 4x more expensive for others for all we know!

 

 

It's a rather forced unfavourable comparison based solely on perceived function, not on actual function.

 

The stuff out of fuel tank cannot be directly used without another critical part of the car. The potential difference out of battery can be directly used by many parts of the car. Eg. You can't connect your in-car radiator to it, whereas you can connect PTC heaters to the HV battery. I'd say EV battery + motor is comparable to fuel tank + ICE.

 

Of course, arguing about replacement cost on something that is designed to last for lifetime of vehicle is all academic.

 

I think it is a fair comparison, forget the fact that you can plug other devices into your EV, if it is so fitted with that feature. 

 

I looked at it as a whole, a means of transporting people from point A to point B, electric motor is comparable to ICE engine, EV battery is therefore comparable to Fuel tank on ICE.

 

A fully charged traction battery, is directly comparable to a full fuel tank, a flat traction battery is again directly comparable to an empty fuel tank, there is no other way to view it, your car is going nowhere without fuel, be it a liquid for the ICE or stored electric for the EV. It is possible to get a Gerry can of liquid fuel and pour into an empty tank, but you cannot walk to a garage and pick up a few KWH and carry it back to your EV, and get that energy into your battery. So in that respect, I'd say that was a far result than being able to plug something into an EV and use its power in a non-motive fashion.

 

Plugging other stuff into an EV is not going to suddenly get your EV car moving again, is it? So the fac that it could be used as a mobile power pack is a possible bonus, but it does sod all for your mobility issues of moving from point A to B does it, so that is just your way of deflecting the point of focus again.

 

Now surely you are not seriously suggesting for a single minute that batteries are going to last the lifetime of the car because that currently is just not going to happen.

Edited 24 February by Graham Butcher

[lol-lol]

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I think it is a fair comparison, forget the fact that you can plug other devices into your EV, if it is so fitted with that feature. 

I looked at it as a whole, a means of transporting people from point A to point B, electric motor is comparable to ICE engine, EV battery is therefore comparable to Fuel tank on ICE.

A fully charged traction battery, is directly comparable to a full fuel tank, a flat traction battery is again directly comparable to an empty fuel tank, there is no other way to view it, your car is going nowhere without fuel, be it a liquid for the ICE or stored electric for the EV. It is possible to get a Gerry can of liquid fuel and pour into an empty tank, but you cannot walk to a garage and pick up a few KWH and carry it back to your EV, and get that energy into your battery. So in that respect, I'd say that was a far result than being able to plug something into an EV and use its power in a non-motive fashion.

Plugging other stuff into an EV is not going to suddenly get your EV car moving again, is it? So the fac that it could be used as a mobile power pack is a possible bonus, but it does sod all for your mobility issues of moving from point A to B does it, so that is just your way of deflecting the point of focus again.

Now surely you are not seriously suggesting for a single minute that batteries are going to last the lifetime of the car because that currently is just not going to happen.

 

An EV's traction battery is both a store for electrical energy and a thermal mass store too.  Particularly when an EV's battery is pre-conditioned before a journey it will acquire thermal mass that can be used to warm the passengers as well optimise its electrical capacity for maximum absorption of electrical energy.  The battery can be used to directly supply the ancillary electrical devices needs such as instrumentation, power steering etc. It does this with about 90% efficiency.  The energy can be bought from renewable sources.

 

A hydrocarbon fuel tank in an ICE car supplied an engine which converts the chemical energy in to kinetic energy which is mostly used for forward motion but also some oth is power is used to drive an alternator to provide electricity to the ever increasing electrical systems though out the car and it does this at around one third efficiency and as a secondary bi-product outputs a lethal cocktail of poisonous gases and particles and then one has to indirectly pay some despote to get some more of the stuff similar to a heroine addict getting some more smack.      

 

Yes they are both energy stores for vehicle propulsion but as technically efficient and environmental solution they cannot be much more different.

 

[lol-lol]

VW ID7 Pro compared quite well to a new Model 3, big battery dual motor version.........

Despite no heat pump in the ID7.

 

Edited 25 February by lol-lol