the truth about electric cars

[Lady Elanore]

Mate's Taycan with long range battery struggles to get much past 200 miles in the real world during winter. If he takes advantage of the 10-80% quick charge figures (beyond that is always slower as charging rates are seriously reduced as the battery gains charge) he wouldn't even get 200 miles. I simply can't begin to look at EVs until they have better range. I won't even be looking at PHEVs unless I get a deal of the century on one. £560 road tax for a vehicle that I can run on pure electric around town, isn't giving me any incentive to stick with PHEV either.

[Ootohere]

20% of a battery not charged can actually mean it is not only 20% less range you get. 

 

So i am off to do a few hundred miles and was checking out the charger tariff changes. 

The increased price is not so much the issue,  but the most i will probably need where the tariff went from 25 pence a kWh to 59 pence will be 25 kWh. 

£14.75. 

That will maybe get me 100 miles.     Minimum charge is £2.00.     Charging is £1 a minute after 40 Minutes.     

 

South Ayrshire which is free will be 37 pence a kWh from April,  25 x 37 pence £9.35.  Rapid 50 kW charger,   

But they have a Minimum Spend of £5.00 coming in.   

 

That stuffs up if you are a more than half  a charge 20 kWh way with a small battery but want to charge to full before maybe going 100 miles to your next charge. 

 

£30 penalty for staying over 60 minutes between 8am & 10pm. 

Edited 8 March by Rooted

[lol-lol]

43 minutes ago, Rooted said:

20% of a battery not charged can actually mean it is not only 20% less range you get. 

 

So i am off to do a few hundred miles and was checking out the charger tariff changes. 

The increased price is not so much the issue,  but the most i will probably need where the tariff went from 25 pence a kWh to 59 pence will be 25 kWh. 

£14.75. 

That will maybe get me 100 miles.     Minimum charge is £2.00.     Charging is £1 a minute after 40 Minutes.     

 

South Ayrshire which is free will be 37 pence a kWh from April,  25 x 37 pence £9.35.  Rapid 50 kW charger,   

But they have a Minimum Spend of £5.00 coming in.   

 

That stuffs up if you are a more than half  a charge 20 kWh way with a small battery but want to charge to full before maybe going 100 miles to your next charge. 

 

£30 penalty for staying over 60 minutes between 8am & 10pm. 

 

My little EV, and I presume most other EVs, charging beyond 90 % is very slow and regen systems do not work as well as below 90 % so charging, or keeping charged to 90% "only" makes sense to me.

 

Must make more use of preconditioning when day rate lecky drops from 30p per kwh to less than 24p per kwh on the home supply.

 

[Ootohere]

@lol-lol  It was not an issue with the Corsa and certainly is not with the MINI getting from 90% to 100% 

Presumption really matters not a bit, or others experiences, if you drive the cars you just need to try and see.

Different chargers, different weather / ambient temps, you get to know if the little slower is worth more than getting a move on and getting to a charger you can not get on.

Better sometimes where you are than the unknown maybe 2 hours away.  Then do it all again. 

 

When you are getting maybe only 1 mile per 1% you need to have it full.   Well i do. 

Edited 8 March by Rooted

[kodiaqsportline]

The truth about Chinese electric cars?

 

 Chinese cars almost uninsurable

 

 

Or perhaps it's Chinese cars in general.  Way back around 2010, someone in my family reversed in to the passenger door of a chinese MG-F thingy whatever it was called. It was only light damage, no more than a dent. Unless it had damaged the door mechanism, the car was perfectly drivable. The repair cost was almost £8000. Aparently the dealer couldn't repair it due to lack of parts, a door skin couldn't be sourced locally so it took many months to ship from China. So in the meantime the owner of the car ran around in a hired Golf GTi.   Don't you just love the insurance industry !  

[lol-lol]

19 minutes ago, Rooted said:

@lol-lol  It was not an issue with the Corsa and certainly is not with the MINI getting from 90% to 100% 

Presumption really matters not a bit, or others experiences, if you drive the cars you just need to try and see.

Different chargers, different weather / ambient temps, you get to know if the little slower is worth more than getting a move on and getting to a charger you can not get on.

Better sometimes where you are than the unknown maybe 2 hours away.  Then do it all again. 

 

When you are getting maybe only 1 mile per 1% you need to have it full.   Well i do. 

 

Worse I have seen is low 3s miles pet kwh and therefore range is not dipping below 155 miles even with temperature at slightly negative figures.  Charging at these temperature around zero or less than 8c the charging slows to below 20 kws when the battery hits around 70% charge, the range is back over 100 miles so I get going again especially if I am only 75 miles from home I feel I can I can Wang it home.  Up behind an X5 at an indicated 90 he was a bit surprised it was a little city car EV.

 

I keep thinking I would like to run the spy app as I would love to know the battery temp. I expect it is oft only 10c even an hour in to a run.  No battery heater, only Nordic Zoes got that. Cooling for battery comes on when ambient is well over 30c and one rags it. I gave seen vids of them rapidgating when ambient over 40c but that is not common even here in central England.

 

[J.R.]

I love doing all that I can to give them as little of my money as possible, only having insurance when it is a legal requirement and not even then in stupid cases like my tractor, lawnmower and trailers

[Lady Elanore]

I went for a longish walk today and could have left the car to charge at the relatively plentiful charge points at the car park. If I wasn't to casually charge, it would be over 80p/kW!! Or sign up and save a few pence. That explains why most of the chargers are always empty. Dread to think how much it cost to install them all. 

 

The more time goes on, the more I am becoming anti-EVs. It's not any one individual EV, but the whole ethos around them. Overpriced, underserviced, too compromised, falling residuals (in free fall for some marques). Second-hand cars needing battery replacement and that will come one day, will write the cars off. I also hate the minimalist interiors and in many cases horrifically dull styling. At least make an effort, guys. I realise that some EVs are very stylish, the Taycan Cross is stunning, as is the Audi E Tron, but there are a little pricey when new! 

[Ootohere]

Tried a quote on this,   Expensive.  10,000 miles a year.

[Ootohere]

To compare i went for a quote on this.  Brand new & 10,000 miles a year.

[Graham Butcher]

Been there and did a while ago and just way of comparison against your findings on the BYD I did the same cover, less the legal cover and my quote makes yours look cheap. ☹️

 

[lol-lol]

56 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Been there and did a while ago and just way of comparison against your findings on the BYD I did the same cover, less the legal cover and my quote makes yours look cheap. ☹️

 

 

More interested in the quotes for the MG4 which is a high volumes id sales whilst the BYDs are still low volume.

The MG4 Extreme as they are Porsche Taycan, Audi etron beating acceleration for £36.5k.

 

Due my Zoe R135 quote soon and expect it to be well under £500 per year.

 

[J.R.]

Yeah  but (to them) you are a bad risk, you have had a total loss claim recently, I'm surprised it wasn't more ie had not gone up as much as your current insurers stuffed up your premium on the replacement Superb.

 

11 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

That explains why most of the chargers are always empty. Dread to think how much it cost to install them all. 

 

That was my thoughts after several years back, pre Covid most tiny villages in Northern France and probably across most of France ended up with public EV charging points, about the same time that supermarkets started installing them although those are no longer free, like everything in France they cost big, far more than any work done for paying clients would be, funded by the EU and various other national regional and local authorities the Mairies typically pay about 10% but of an already abusively inflated price, they don't mind paying the money for virtue signalling knowing the public purse picks up the other 90%.

 

I have never ever even once seen a vehicle charging at any of these other than the supermarket ones when they were free, I suppose in recent years some must have done though, the price per kw is eyewatering.

 

Plenty on autoroute services many are being completely rebuilt from the ground up, restaurants, seating area everything with the funding coming from them increasing the number of charge points.

 

They have to remain open on a limited basis during the works which makes it even more complicated and the works more expensive, the 10l splash n dash I did last week was at such a job site, only 2 fuel pumps open out of the original 10 or more, toilets in the building and a tiny kiosk with a fridge selling sandwiches and crisps, there was a food truck outside for the lunchtime meals, driving out of the calamity I counted 16 new and functional EV charging points all unoccupied.

 

There will of course be more fuel pumps after the site is finished but understandably not as many as before, another place that was undergoing the ground up rebuild while still functioning is unrecognisable now and a great improvement but I do wonder if in EV ownership stalls or falls whether they will be getting new grants to remove the charging stations and fit more fuel pumps.

[Graham Butcher]

41 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

More interested in the quotes for the MG4 which is a high volumes id sales whilst the BYDs are still low volume.

The MG4 Extreme as they are Porsche Taycan, Audi etron beating acceleration for £36.5k.

 

Due my Zoe R135 quote soon and expect it to be well under £500 per year.

 

Here you go then, MG mg4 extended range, 10,000 miles a year, comp, £1,000 excess.

[Graham Butcher]

50 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Yeah  but (to them) you are a bad risk, you have had a total loss claim recently, I'm surprised it wasn't more ie had not gone up as much as your current insurers stuffed up your premium on the replacement Superb.

 

Well, those prices are well north of my replacement Superb, which I did eventually get down to about £600 with the same parameters.

Edited 9 March by Graham Butcher

[lol-lol]

11 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Here you go then, MG mg4 extended range, 10,000 miles a year, comp, £1,000 excess.

 

Thanks.  MG4 long range is quite a high spec machine, no Extreme but still over 240 hp.  I think the insurance from me would be quite a lot less as worcestershire would be a lower I expect a backwater sort of place.  Most go for standard range I would expect.  Good car in most respects.  Be interesting to see how the fast parcel operators react to any raised insurance costs on the tens of thousands of SAIC Maxus EV vans they have.

 

Do not like their software.  Much prefer Renault's Google software and their offerings on the EV front and half a dozen new Renault EVe to cater for many tastes and insurance will still be cheapish from what I have seen.

 

[Graham Butcher]

10 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Thanks.  MG4 long range is quite a high spec machine, no Extreme but still over 240 hp.  I think the insurance from me would be quite a lot less as worcestershire would be a lower I expect a backwater sort of place.  Most go for standard range I would expect.  Good car in most respects.  Be interesting to see how the fast parcel operators react to any raised insurance costs on the tens of thousands of SAIC Maxus EV vans they have.

 

Do not like their software.  Much prefer Renault's Google software and their offerings on the EV front and half a dozen new Renault EVe to cater for many tastes and insurance will still be cheapish from what I have seen.

 

Why not do a comparable quote to see how cheap it is?

[Lady Elanore]

Mr May makes a good and balanced point or two

 

 

[Ootohere]

Set off this morning. Car at 100% . 104 miles.  Temp never about 4*oC.    Had 76 miles to go.  Right from the start the range dropped to 94 miles.  Then after 5 miles of extra miles with roads closed I the. Needed to do an extra 10 miles.   Instead of diversion I headed very narrow roads I know.  Went to heating off and near dead power to get to Perth.  Then 70 mph to Stirling in sport. Ended doing only 72 miles.  But 1 hour 48 minutes and arrived with 30% battery.    This is why small battery cars might need topped to full.  Diversions, chargers not working like the first one I tried.   Started charger on card.  No tariff showing on charger.  If I am not at 98% I will need to go on the 22 kW AC and charge at a max 11 kW as I am heading v 105 miles to a charger. 

Edited 9 March by Rooted

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well, those prices are well north of my replacement Superb, which I did eventually get down to about £600 with the same parameters.

 

Is that for your Superb which average miles versions are selling at around £16k ?   This is half the value of a new EV which would be around £33k.

 

Did a Compare the market on my current to cars, and I am expecting my quote from LV in the next couple of days and maybe the quote might be in the £1k zone which is only really about what inflation would take the cost too.   My lad, 27, is also on the Zoe insurance.  Last year it was the Arkana mild hybrid that jumped in cost and the EV went down massively, probably due to second hand prices.  So not worries cost of my EV insurance at present though oddly LV did not pop up on the Compare the Market cheapest insurers.

Some companies I would not go with again, Tescos being one of them as they are acting as a broker and I found them absolutely terrible to deal with. Always prefer to deal with a direct Insurer rather than broker.   In summary, not worries, yet, about insuring my BEV or MHEV Renaults.       

 

Product Cover                                                                                                                                                                                            Last year's price    This year's price (2023)

RENAULT ARKANA ICONIC MHEV AUTO VK72***                                                Comprehensive 10 Apr 2023 to 09 Apr 2024          £466.43             £368.72

RENAULT ZOE RIVIERA LTD EDITION RAPIDCHARGE R135 AUTO VK71***     Comprehensive 10 Apr 2023 to 09 Apr 2024          £490.64             £520.07   

 

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, Lady Elanore said:

Mr May makes a good and balanced point or two

 

 

James puts most of the points nicely.

 

He does fail to mention that battery density and the popping up of Superchargers if happening between 20% for battery density and 50% per annum fo new charges so his projection of millions of public chargers is off I think and a couple of hundred of chargers is more like like the mark not millions as he rather ill considered stated.

300,000 this decade is the widely accepted this decade and with the massively increasing range on the long range models, and most ie 90% of the EVs doing their charging at home, a million chargers, logically, will not be needed by 2035, 2040 or ever.

 

The massive amount of UK government help, even from a Conservative Government is massive in both cash and diverse ways of helping the transition to EVs.....

https://www.gov.uk/transport/zero-emission-and-electric-vehicles

 

[Graham Butcher]

36 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Is that for your Superb which average miles versions are selling at around £16k ?   This is half the value of a new EV which would be around £33k.

 

Did a Compare the market on my current to cars, and I am expecting my quote from LV in the next couple of days and maybe the quote might be in the £1k zone which is only really about what inflation would take the cost too.   My lad, 27, is also on the Zoe insurance.  Last year it was the Arkana mild hybrid that jumped in cost and the EV went down massively, probably due to second hand prices.  So not worries cost of my EV insurance at present though oddly LV did not pop up on the Compare the Market cheapest insurers.

Some companies I would not go with again, Tescos being one of them as they are acting as a broker and I found them absolutely terrible to deal with. Always prefer to deal with a direct Insurer rather than broker.   In summary, not worries, yet, about insuring my BEV or MHEV Renaults.       

 

Product Cover                                                                                                                                                                                            Last year's price    This year's price (2023)

RENAULT ARKANA ICONIC MHEV AUTO VK72***                                                Comprehensive 10 Apr 2023 to 09 Apr 2024          £466.43             £368.72

RENAULT ZOE RIVIERA LTD EDITION RAPIDCHARGE R135 AUTO VK71***     Comprehensive 10 Apr 2023 to 09 Apr 2024          £490.64             £520.07   

 

Lol, when I said get a comparable quote, I did of course mean on the MG4 like I did, so you could compare your quote v mine 😁

[lol-lol]

Just now, Graham Butcher said:

Lol, when I said get a comparable quote, I did of course mean on the MG4 like I did, so you could compare your quote v mine 😁

 

It takes so long to do.  Much more interesting with my EV and hybrid is going to cost to insure which is due for its annual quote.

 

 Some have gone for Chinese EVs, UK press has praised them hugely over the past year but thankfully the press are moving to concentration on European cars such as Citroens, Dacias, Peugeots and Renaults though the Polestars, Smarts and Volvos still get some attention.

 

Chinese EVs are not what most EV buyers are interested, unless it is a Chinese RHD TESLA.  I can see, like we saw in motorcycles many years ago, EVs being sold and software locked down to lower horsepowers ie limited to 100, 125, 150 kWs to help keep insurance costs down, sam for hybrids like the new MG3 ie a sub 20k car with more than 200 hp with the EV power being the bigger part.       

 

[Graham Butcher]

35 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

James puts most of the points nicely.

 

He does fail to mention that battery density and the popping up of Superchargers if happening between 20% for battery density and 50% per annum fo new charges so his projection of millions of public chargers is off I think and a couple of hundred of chargers is more like like the mark not millions as he rather ill considered stated.

300,000 this decade is the widely accepted this decade and with the massively increasing range on the long range models, and most ie 90% of the EVs doing their charging at home, a million chargers, logically, will not be needed by 2035, 2040 or ever.

 

The massive amount of UK government help, even from a Conservative Government is massive in both cash and diverse ways of helping the transition to EVs.....

https://www.gov.uk/transport/zero-emission-and-electric-vehicles

 

I think that James is about right really with the charger aspect, each year there are more of us being coerced into the electric family and there is always going to a large portion of those unable to charge at home looking for public chargers. Then there are those do not want or need a longer range car as they only need a small city type of car with a range of approx 100 miles and if and when they partake in a longer trip like Rooted is, will find themselves looking to top up their batteries, who will be competing with those drivers of long range cars looking for their next charge in order to continue their journey. It has been discussed before about filling stations with a dozen pumps can service around 144 cars in an hour so to do the same number of electric cars (not all cars can be charged at superfast speeds) so you would need to cater for approx the same of chargers as car serviced at filling station, i.e., 144 to allow for the slower cars, or those that need a higher charge level. It is not always either desirable to quick top and move to the next less busy hub etc, as there not be one on your route or you can't rely on them working etc.

 

This James May interview is only 4 hours old, so he is talking about current conditions and he has 2 electric cars of his own, so he is living it not, like me observing it from the sidelines.

Edited 9 March by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

9 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

It takes so long to do.  Much more interesting with my EV and hybrid is going to cost to insure which is due for its annual quote.

 

That, if you don't mind me saying so, is BS unless you're a super quick typer, the time it took to type up your reply to me, you could have gone onto the compare the market site and got about 60 plus quotes for a MG4