the truth about electric cars

[Graham Butcher]

Yep, I know that was what you're on about. I was talking about the price of the 2ndhand XL1 in response to Jonny Smith saying that they sold for £92,000 or thereabouts when new. Because it is such a rare car, it still commands a high price. I think it was well overpriced in the beginning. Had they kept the price low, they might have sold enough to make a profit and developed it further, their position today might be better. 

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Shock horror, I just spotted this video which I suspected was more of a clickbait video, but doing due care and diligence checking, turns out to be factual. This is something that I had often wondered just what we do once the most cars were EV's, if electricity becomes in short supply for whatever reason, how will the world cope.

 

Switzerland considers a ban on electric vehicle this winter, here's why - World News (wionews.com)

 

Switzerland will BAN electric cars from the roads during power shortages | Daily Mail Online

 

Is Switzerland banning electric vehicles? Here's all you need to know | HT Auto (hindustantimes.com)

 

The truth behind the rumoured EV driving ban in Switzerland - electrive.com

 

Switzerland to Become First Country to Ban EVs | YoCharge

 

 

 

 

Unless they ban the electric plug it is not going to affect EV 'in a terminal sort of way.

One could use the Granny charging method.  

Charge the car via ones solar panels and home batteries .

Electricity is everywhere.

Where as diesel and petrol comes, mostly, from nasty regimes run by despotes.

 

Yes governments want to control spikes which cause brown outs, they are way behind the curve at throttling EV car users drawing massive power.

They need to get a move on a soon thousands of EV trucks will be drawing down electricity on 1 MW truck chargers !!

 

[J.R.]

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

That Taycan while having a low drag coefficient is a very heavy car when compared to say a Tesla or similar car so it uses a lot of power just to keep it moving,

 

A heavy car uses exactly the same amount of power to keep moving as a lighter one, drag coefficient and frontal area make the biggest difference but for the same vehicle the mass makes a de minimus difference to the power consumed to keep moving

 

Getting up to speed, accelerating, driving up hills, all those the vehicle mass influences but not steady speed power consumption other than the de minimus frictional and tyre losses.

[Stonekeeper]

16 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Unless they ban the electric plug it is not going to affect EV 'in a terminal sort of way.

One could use the Granny charging method.  

Charge the car via ones solar panels and home batteries .

Electricity is everywhere.

Where as diesel and petrol comes, mostly, from nasty regimes run by despotes.

 

Yes governments want to control spikes which cause brown outs, they are way behind the curve at throttling EV car users drawing massive power.

They need to get a move on a soon thousands of EV trucks will be drawing down electricity on 1 MW truck chargers !!

 

 

It is already in the regulations that wall boxes must have the ability to remotely control the output to an ev.

 

 

 

Edited 2 November, 2023 by Stonekeeper

[Ootohere]

^^^^ indeed.  But still people put power to their garage, shed ,greenhouse, caravan or motorhome from the supply to the home / property and as @lol-lol said.  Granny charger, I call it the 3 pin lead though as the AC charger is built into the car.      So wall boxes or Smart meters have legislation.   Maybe legislate against heated pools, outside lighting, heaters etc.    Those that have these will not be pleased. 

 

Edited 3 November, 2023 by Rooted

[Stonekeeper]

28 minutes ago, Rooted said:

^^^^ indeed.  But still people put power to there garage, shed ,greenhouse, caravan or motorhome from the supply to the home / property and ad @lol-lol said.  Granny charger, I call it the 3 pin lead though as the AC charger is built into the car.      So wall boxes or Smart meters have legislation.   Maybe legislate against heated pools, outside lighting, heaters etc.    Those that have these will not be pleased. 

 

 

I would expect it will be the 7kw for up to 12 hours at a time that will be controlled.

 

Next step?

 

"Vehicle to grid is the next stage on from smart charging. The idea is that electric vehicle owners will have a smart charging point that can talk to our technology via their energy supplier. EV owners can then automatically charge their car batteries when there is extra renewable power available and offload electricity when there is too much.  

Combining smart charging and vehicle to grid technology means the EV owner simply sets a minimum charge for their battery (enough to get them to work and back, for example) and if the system requires a boost overnight, we can draw electricity from their battery – they will be paid for this of course! 

Once the peak in demand has been satisfied, the charge will be returned. 

This power sharing idea also has the possibility to be used commercially too. Like using electric cars parked at airports or a fleet of commercial vehicles, which are normally parked overnight, to help manage the ups and downs of renewable electricity generation. 

In 2050, our latest Future Energy Scenarios (FES 2021) shows the total electricity demand for road transport in 2050 will be down to 153TWh. One way to think of vehicle to grid charging (V2G) is that it acts as a mini battery, giving power back to grid in times of high demand."

 

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/future-energy/our-progress-towards-net-zero/net-zero-explained/electric-vehicles/evs-and

[Ootohere]

PHEV,s charging at 3.6 kW might well need to be included and excluded from Peak Demand time charging.    But this is very much an issue for England more than the whole of the UK.   National Grid and not enough energy in the right places lots of the times and then when it can be readily available the National Grid does not want it as it does not have the customers for it.   Like into battery storage in properties and vehicles etc.  

[wyx087]

V2G or V2H is the logical next step for EV's, helping the grid when parked.

There should also be a push for home storage to help ease grid demand and prevent black/brown out situations during shortages.

 

He who can store energy has all the power (pun intended 😛 )

 

 

My V2H charger for Leaf is installed, but installer "forgot" to call the charger company to commission it (How TF does that happen!?). So I can only charge and don't have access to the actual V2H part. Plus the muppet forgot to properly secure the cable run for my 7 kW charge point. I'm not taking chances until everything gets checked over in next week's appointment.

 

So now, I can charge my Leaf at 5 kW with the V2H charger (upgrade from 3.3 kW its built-in charger). But my MY is downgraded to granny charging speed to be on the safe side. Luckily granny charging speed is no problem when the car is always parked on the driveway overnight. In fact, I turn it down from 10 amps to 8 amps to be on the safe side.

 

My point is, just plug in at every opportunity and charging speed is never an issue. I can see in a shortage situation, National Grid remotely turn off smart chargers. But I think it is only likely to happen during peak periods. And just like ICE cars, you would never run completely empty.

[wyx087]

Regarding the VW prototype, this video came up in my YT rabbit hole.

 

Essentially, this engineering focused guy managed to get 25% efficiency gain on highway by doing aero mods, some are pretty extreme.

 

 

As I said, it's more about the aero and efficiency gains than tweaking ICE itself.

[lol-lol]

7 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

A heavy car uses exactly the same amount of power to keep moving as a lighter one, drag coefficient and frontal area make the biggest difference but for the same vehicle the mass makes a de minimus difference to the power consumed to keep moving

 

Getting up to speed, accelerating, driving up hills, all those the vehicle mass influences but not steady speed power consumption other than the de minimus frictional and tyre losses.

 

Rolling resistance is an element worth considering and us EV owners are listening out for better ie tyres which absorb less power ie sometimes called hysteresis loss ie the flexing of the tyres, it is what warms it up and as EVs are on average 10 or 15%.

 

A bunch of UK ex military guys ran a Renault Zoe ZE50 for 424 miles on a single charge round Thuxton and then used some low hysteresis tyres ENSO tyres.     Zoe drove over 10% farther.  Yes more of an effect on city driving speeds that motorway speeds of course. 

 

Since EVs spend so little of energy for the car and for servicing tyres is the one place costs are an even more significant place to review for EVs than ICE vehicles.

I like to change tyres at around the 3mm tread depth, one previous employer wanted to run the tyre down to 2 mm, was not happy with that situation.    

But what tyres to get ?  Always gravitate to Michelins but torn with their EV tyre which was OE, Michelin Primacy is mostly OK but I think there is better out there now.  

 

https://www.renault.co.uk/renault-news/renault-zoe-e-tech-covers-475-miles-on-a-single-charge.html  

 

 

 

 

[lol-lol]

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Regarding the VW prototype, this video came up in my YT rabbit hole.

 

Essentially, this engineering focused guy managed to get 25% efficiency gain on highway by doing aero mods, some are pretty extreme.

 

As I said, it's more about the aero and efficiency gains than tweaking ICE itself.

 

Like the Green line Skodas with their under the floor flattening aero work.  Worker to get the Octy up to 228 mph at Bonneville, plus the 600 hp double fuel rack and the turbo turned up to to 11 like a Marshal Amp.

 

 

Edited 3 November, 2023 by lol-lol

[Ootohere]

Michelin Primacy 4 as fitted to many EV,s / PHEV,s to help with range are really quite inappropriate for some weather conditions.

As are many tyres OEM on vehicles as they are sold in the UK.

Tens of thousands or millions will get around on the tyres cars come fitted with pretty well but there are EV & PHEV drivers that should be looking at the tyres the cars are wearing, maybe cars under 3 years old that have not had a MOT examiner or anyone else casting an eye over them to see just how treads are looking.

 

I have seen some EV,s about that i would not want to be taking out in heavy rain, frosts or snow.  These often being the more expensive EV,s on the biggest / widest tyres. 

 

The MINI Electric was delivered on these.

(You can opt for Winter Tyres with a Factory Build but really the sales people knew nothing about that and said they had never been asked or noticed this.)

 

Watching a video of the New Mini Cooper Electrics the presenter said they come on 225 tyres (18",)now and not just 205's.(,17",).  Likely there will be options of 17 or 16 inch rims and all season or winter tyres.  But cars ordered for stock and demonstrators will be on Summer bias tyres. 

 

Edited 3 November, 2023 by Rooted

[wyx087]

Yep. "EV tyres" are pretty much efficiency touring tyres turned up to 11. Great for motorways in good weather, not so great in cold and wet.

 

I've fitted Mitch CC2 on the Leaf now. It'll be our snow car, not going far when snowing anyway. So far feels great to drive in the downpour. I'll doing similar when MY factory tyre reach end of life. Safety over efficiency.

 

Do you store those tyres from the factory? or sell it on as used?

[Ootohere]

I gave  / left the brand new tyres to the fitter to sell or give away. Probably went with the scrap tyres. I would not want my worst enemy taking their nearest and dearest on the crap that was on the MINI.   I have the Primacy 4 from 2020 sitting and could put them on rims and use in summer but they were bl00dy dangerous on the Corsa in the wet. 

Edited 3 November, 2023 by Rooted

[Ootohere]

P1ssed right off.  But PodPoint to the rescue.   Yesterday late BP Pulse Hearthill Services.  3 chargers would not start with my BP Pulse membership card.  Could not read screen in the setting sun, small writing and in French ???.  So tried Phone with credit in another old account. No go.  Called helpline and no answer just a satisfaction survey..  used debit card and charged at high tarrif 10 kWh.  Enough till this morning.  At airport and drop off partner.  Go to Park and Ride, 5 BP Pulse chargers have no power,  charge place Scotland.  Old charger is lit up, plug in and get locked in.  Hit the emergency stop button.    Came out and passed new BP Pulse charger at BP station went round circuit got to it and tried membership card.  No go.  So 5 miles out to a Lidl and PodPoint, going to charge to full on my Credit even though not cheap as heading north and will top in Perth and Kinross at 35 pence a kWh then intend charging Tesla non Tesla in Aviemore.    Alternatives always required incase. Weather or just unreliable EV charging places.   As I came out of airport drop off I see that EV drivers have to press assistance button to get a discounted rate.  

 

PS /EDIT.

18.5 kWh £12.00.   

3.3 miles to kWh through torrential rain in Fife and temp at around 3*oC.    Just 61 miles for £12.00  not good.  

Edited 4 November, 2023 by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

Oh dear, that is not good news is it, so maybe Taycan man was telling the truth about the chargers after all, why I give the benefit of doubt when you can't actually be there, at the same time and verify things, you have to accept what he said as being correct. Good job you were not desperate for a charge at the time and were able to find others to get topped up from.

[fabdavrav]

On 02/11/2023 at 21:06, wyx087 said:

Regarding the VW prototype, this video came up in my YT rabbit hole.

 

Essentially, this engineering focused guy managed to get 25% efficiency gain on highway by doing aero mods, some are pretty extreme.

 

 

As I said, it's more about the aero and efficiency gains than tweaking ICE itself.

 

 

I've been banging that drum for ages....I did a big guide & several smaller one on the mK7 Golf forum, retro fitting lots of underbody aero from the other "eco" versions of the Golf..& even from other VAG cars!

 

 

How to retro-fit skid trays, aerodynamic under trays, & stone guards to a MK7 Golf | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

How to retro-fit the rear window spoiler fins to a Mk7 Golf Estate/Variant/S.W. | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

How to retro-fit the front subframe cover from the VW Tiguan (2016->) | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

How to retro-fit the Mk8 rear suspension aero covers or stone guards to a Mk7 Golf. | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

 

Edited 4 November, 2023 by fabdavrav

[lol-lol]

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh dear, that is not good news is it, so maybe Taycan man was telling the truth about the chargers after all, why I give the benefit of doubt when you can't actually be there, at the same time and verify things, you have to accept what he said as being correct. Good job you were not desperate for a charge at the time and were able to find others to get topped up from.

 

I do not think that most EV drivers with around or above average IQ just rely on any old charging network.  Just like ICE drivers we oft have preference for certain networks so for my high performance motorcycles I prefered Shell petrol and so it is with EV charging networks.  I like Ionity network which seems to be rolling out bigtime, I can see Instavolt have a high reliability ie 99 point something, as do several other networks.  Just to use ZAP MAP and go to any charger listed is not smart.  EV drivers know the networks that are good, much as you might not buy diesel or petrol from unknown named chains or even supermarkets I think EV drivers will tend to go to the charging networks the know to be good for reliability, good charging speed etc.  

 

I have actually been disappointed recently that my little Zoe has been so good at its range ie well over 200 miles and been disappointed I did not need to charge as it was such a pleasant experience ie quick, cheap with the Octopus Electroverse discount and monthly billing on to my household energy bill which is massively in credit.

The change from ICE to EV is evolving at a pace of the middle part of the S curve....

https://www.electriccarscheme.com/blog/celebrating-50000-electric-car-charge-point-milestone  

 

ZapMap recently announced a significant achievement in the UK's electric vehicle (EV) infrastructure, with the country now boasting over 50,000 public EV charging points. The symbolic 50,000th charging station was an ultra-rapid device installed at a service station in Weston-super-Mare.   A growing number of people are making the transition from petrol to electric cars. This is driven by the approaching deadline to phase out petrol cars (2035) and the steady rise in fuel prices over recent years. According to ZapMap, electric cars made up 17% of new car registrations in September 2023.  This post will explore the significance of reaching this 50,000 charging point milestone and provide insights into various methods of charging electric vehicles, along with tips for maximising range with each charge.  The government later introduced a new strategy to improve consumer experience by making more convenient, affordable and reliable charging accessible across the country. It also committed to a £1.6 billion investment to expand the UK charging network, with 300,000 public chargers expected to be available by 2030. 

 

 

 

[Graham Butcher]

I agree, but it did cause @Rooted some problems, and the thing with EV's is that unlike ICE, you can't walk to the nearest charging point and carry a kwh back to your car to enable you drive the car to the car there to do a proper recharge.

[Graham Butcher]

2 hours ago, fabdavrav said:

 

 

I've been banging that drum for ages....I did a big guide & several smaller one on the mK7 Golf forum, retro fitting lots of underbody aero from the other "eco" versions of the Golf..& even from other VAG cars!

 

 

How to retro-fit skid trays, aerodynamic under trays, & stone guards to a MK7 Golf | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

How to retro-fit the rear window spoiler fins to a Mk7 Golf Estate/Variant/S.W. | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

How to retro-fit the front subframe cover from the VW Tiguan (2016->) | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

How to retro-fit the Mk8 rear suspension aero covers or stone guards to a Mk7 Golf. | GOLFMK7 - VW GTI MKVII Forum / VW Golf R Forum / VW Golf MKVII Forum

 

 

Totally agree with you, however, the ICE power plant can still be improved to further increase its efficiency and reduce its harmful emissions, coupled with some of the aero mods would produce significantly better MPG and less pollution at the same time, which cannot be a bad thing can it? Reducing demand for oil so less resources being used up, and less harmful gases produced, the sooner we can climate change under control.

[Ootohere]

@Graham ButcherI have over 65,000 miles of EV charging.  I know pretty much where there will be problems.

I could often just pay a FULL PRICE TARIFF and get a charge,  But then that is crazy prices.    I am not a Business User with Tax Benefits and claiming back VAT.

 

Edinburgh City & the Airport is ridiculous as a Capital City for Visitors / Tourists and anyone really needing rapid charging. 

Charge Place Scotland is ridiculous, hopeless, not fit for purpose.

 

Public Charging can be very expensive, or reasonable or Free.    Free causes issues with the greedy and ignorant.   The Scottish Government / Transport Scotland have Millions spent on the Infrastructure and are TOMMY.     Deaf, Dumb & Blind and probably the only Pin Ball they play is with their Salaries & Expenses.  

 

Too expensive.

 

 

Edited 4 November, 2023 by Rooted

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

I agree, but it did cause @Rooted some problems, and the thing with EV's is that unlike ICE, you can't walk to the nearest charging point and carry a kwh back to your car to enable you drive the car to the car there to do a proper recharge.

 

Yes you can,

Allpower, Ecoflow etc make portable batteries which can supply a granny lead to supply and 3 pin charging lead at 2.4 kWh.  Ecoflow make something similar but my Allpower S2000 pro was about half the price of the Ecoflow.  Can act as backup for home and store for cheap night time lecky to use during day.  Can carry portable solar panels too. 

Bjorn Nyland uses the Ecoflow Delta Pro Max which is similar after he deliberately runs EVs down to zero miles and until they stop, usually do 10, 15 or 20 miles past zero.   

[Ootohere]

Lots of the 7 kW chargers were not working this morning at the Airport and nobody had posted on ZapMap or PlugShare, actually hardly anyone ever does.

I do for every charger i use, working or not working.

 

Looking at chargers for a PHEV driver in the Octavia Section, par for the course for Shell Re-Charge.   I have never ever managed to get one to work. 5 locations i think so far.

 

I would not want to pay 59 pence to charge at 11 kW anyway.  

I have done to get 11 kW when nothing else, actually paid 70 pence a kWh on a 11 kW charger. 

Edited 4 November, 2023 by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

Yes you can,

Allpower, Ecoflow etc make portable batteries which can supply a granny lead to supply and 3 pin charging lead at 2.4 kWh.  Ecoflow make something similar but my Allpower S2000 pro was about half the price of the Ecoflow.  Can act as backup for home and store for cheap night time lecky to use during day.  Can carry portable solar panels too. 

Bjorn Nyland uses the Ecoflow Delta Pro Max which is similar after he deliberately runs EVs down to zero miles and until they stop, usually do 10, 15 or 20 miles past zero.   

Could also carry a small ICE generator with a full tank 🤣

[lol-lol]

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Could also carry a small ICE generator with a full tank 🤣

 

Ooooh, smelly, dirty and noisy.

Edited 4 November, 2023 by lol-lol