the truth about electric cars

[J.R.]

7 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

we all know now that they are as good for the planet as was first thought,

 

Speak for yourself!!!

[wyx087]

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Imagine if there was a internet forum around at the time when diesel powered cars became popular and there was a thread called "The truth about diesel cars", we all know now that they are as good for the planet as was first thought, and the same thing could be happening again in the future with electric motive power. I don't have a crystal ball, sadly.

Nice logic.

 

Because ICE to EV is similar to petrol to diesel 🤪  One is complete paradigm shift the other is a lame bait and switch.

One had a rough start and zero lobbying at the beginning. The other was supported by most German brands over Toyota's hybrid electrification, with intense lobbying efforts.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I think the Top Gear statement was in fact a scripted joke and I think it was also mentioned batteries in your TV remote always need replacing, it was just humour that was all it was, deal with it.

Same humour when Taycan man can't use a mapping app?

Same humour when Geoff talks about EV battery fire on a Vauxhall van fire that had nothing to do with electric powertrain?

 

 

[wyx087]

3 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I do on every tankfull, my closest call was a couple of months ago on the autoroute having travelled 100 kms after the "miles remaining" display read zero and then deciding to go one junction further to get to a lower cost filling station, I got 59.8 litres into a 60 litre tank, normally it would be 57 to 58 litres.

 

I've been doing that for close to 20 years and the only surprise I have had is running out of fuel a couple of times when the fuel sender was playing up.

But do you ever base your expected range on quoted range of the vehicle?

 

Yes, battery degrade, unlike fuel tank. But as a whole car, all components wear and degrade over time. My point is EV just degrades differently and don't expect any car to be constant, regardless of fuel source.

[Graham Butcher]

19 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Speak for yourself!!!

Haha, a typo error, and of course I was referring to diesels, and it should read "not as good for the planet as was first thought", which of course I suspect that a man of your calibre, knew that was what I intended 😃 

[J.R.]

8 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

But do you ever base your expected range on quoted range of the vehicle?

Yes I do but by now I know just how many miles to expect from a tankfull according to my journey profiles, local, towing, autoroutes, autoroute towing etc.

 

When I refill the optimistic range showing lets say 650 miles is pretty much spot on if I maintain the same journey profile for the tank of fuel, down to half a tank it remains truthfull at say 325 miles beneath that it starts stealing range to create the "virtual reserve" capacity of 5-7 litres so it will hit zero miles remaining after a further 250 miles and I can safely drive another 60 miles beyond that and most times do.

 

I dont push my luck quite so much with this one being a Common Rail Diesel as running dry could wreck the pumps and injectors.

 

The 60 miles I quoted was for local journeys, if towing or on the autoroute it would be less and I can judge by how much by how fewer miles I did before the display showed zero remaining miles.

 

I always ignore the fuel low warning light, if you fill up when that comes on you will be filling up 8 times instead of 5.

[Graham Butcher]

43 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Nice logic.

 

Because ICE to EV is similar to petrol to diesel 🤪  One is complete paradigm shift the other is a lame bait and switch.

One had a rough start and zero lobbying at the beginning. The other was supported by most German brands over Toyota's hybrid electrification, with intense lobbying efforts.

 

 

Same humour when Taycan man can't use a mapping app?

Same humour when Geoff talks about EV battery fire on a Vauxhall van fire that had nothing to do with electric powertrain?

 

 

Or of course the famous Top Gear stating that all French cars self combust, BMW's grills looking like rabbits teeth etc, all lorry drivers were all fat because they eat at greasy transport cafes etc etc etc.!!!

Edited 18 November, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

4 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Yes I do but by now I know just how many miles to expect from a tankfull according to my journey profiles, local, towing, autoroutes, autoroute towing etc.

 

When I refill the optimistic range showing lets say 650 miles is pretty much spot on if I maintain the same journey profile for the tank of fuel, down to half a tank it remains truthfull at say 325 miles beneath that it starts stealing range to create the "virtual reserve" capacity of 5-7 litres so it will hit zero miles remaining after a further 250 miles and I can safely drive another 60 miles beyond that and most times do.

 

I dont push my luck quite so much with this one being a Common Rail Diesel as running dry could wreck the pumps and injectors.

 

The 60 miles I quoted was for local journeys, if towing or on the autoroute it would be less and I can judge by how much by how fewer miles I did before the display showed zero remaining miles.

 

I always ignore the fuel low warning light, if you fill up when that comes on you will be filling up 8 times instead of 5.

I can also confirm this is true, my car also works in the same fashion and will often show a range between 650 to 680 miles after a fill up because of the cars previous results, on a car that is used more for short city drives, that initial range drops a significant amount and it is calculating based on what mpg you were getting before you filled up. I often can see the predicted range increasing as I drive on a reasonable drive, if the ones prior to filling were short city drives with low mpg figures being recorded. Sometimes I can reach my destination of that was roughly 35 miles away and the range indicated would read far more than it did when I left the forecourt, despite having just driven 35 miles.

 

@J.R. I never realised that your car was a diesel, has id got the ECO setting where it gives you green score with green bars and green leaf? If it has I might send you PM as you might be able to solve something for me.

[J.R.]

No, its a poverty spec with no bells & whistles, no LCD displays of any kind.

 

Less to go wrong.

[Graham Butcher]

@wyx087 Did you ever have a Morris Marina? Thats another thing that the trio on Top Gear used to do, that was to berate the Marina and nearly always managed to drop a piano from a great height onto one as a long standing joke, just as they took the p**s out of Italian cars, slagged off all American cars, caravans and camping holidays etc, how did you feel about those?

[@Lee]

20 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087 Did you ever have a Morris Marina? Thats another thing that the trio on Top Gear used to do, that was to berate the Marina and nearly always managed to drop a piano from a great height onto one as a long standing joke, just as they took the p**s out of Italian cars, slagged off all American cars, caravans and camping holidays etc, how did you feel about those?

Top Gear's never slagged off *all* American cars. 

They've taken the **** out of *some* Italian cars. 

They've also admonished some British cars.

The Morris Marina got away lightly IMO.

It, and it's successor the Ital were truly awful cars hammered together by an underappreciated workforce who were supplied badly made panels and components by an equally underappreciated workforce in and around the West Midlands.

My dad worked for a few of those companies as a toolmaker, a press setter engineer and later a CNC setter operator. 

[wyx087]

8 hours ago, J.R. said:

Yes I do but by now I know just how many miles to expect from a tankfull according to my journey profiles, local, towing, autoroutes, autoroute towing etc.

 

When I refill the optimistic range showing lets say 650 miles is pretty much spot on if I maintain the same journey profile for the tank of fuel, down to half a tank it remains truthfull at say 325 miles beneath that it starts stealing range to create the "virtual reserve" capacity of 5-7 litres so it will hit zero miles remaining after a further 250 miles and I can safely drive another 60 miles beyond that and most times do.

 

I dont push my luck quite so much with this one being a Common Rail Diesel as running dry could wreck the pumps and injectors.

 

The 60 miles I quoted was for local journeys, if towing or on the autoroute it would be less and I can judge by how much by how fewer miles I did before the display showed zero remaining miles.

 

I always ignore the fuel low warning light, if you fill up when that comes on you will be filling up 8 times instead of 5.

Like living dangerously? 

I get the desire to visit petrol station as little as possible. It’s a waste of time and unnecessary distraction. 
 

But all ICE cars I’ve had, I always fill up just before or after fuel light to be on the safe side. I’ve had instances where after fuel light lit, the petrol station was closed. 
 

Whereas with EV, I know my driving profile near home, I am comfortable arriving at very low charge levels and I know I can definitely get a charge at home. 

[wyx087]

7 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087 Did you ever have a Morris Marina? Thats another thing that the trio on Top Gear used to do, that was to berate the Marina and nearly always managed to drop a piano from a great height onto one as a long standing joke, just as they took the p**s out of Italian cars, slagged off all American cars, caravans and camping holidays etc, how did you feel about those?

 

There’s running gag and then there’s misinformation. Top gear at the time had a huge audience, for them to spread mid-information was very damaging to early adoption of EV’s. 
 

Their tune changed in later years, as EV adoption became inevitable. But the damage has been done, “need new battery after a few years” is still mentioned to this day. 

[Ootohere]

This vid is pretty much showing the truth of travelling with a MINI electric.

If i was in a wheel chair it would be the very last EV i would have.   I knew what the short range they have would be like for public charging. Luckily i do not have charging this slow happening.

......................

This week one day i have over 4 hundred miles to do and i really have about 12 hours to do it in. Home to back home.

About 8 hours driving and maybe around an hour in the vicinity of the airport.

250 miles, then a break and near 200 miles back.

Taking the Diesel. I could not care about how much it costs, and even if i had an EV that could do 300 miles on a charge i would take a diesel or a petrol.

No snow forecast mid week, but there is possibly by the end of the week.  Looking forward to getting my MINI out in the snow.

 

..............................

Below.

When you are starting a charge that Orange circle before the car starts charging can be a hold your breath moment.

After a few failures your heart can sink.

If it goes quick to the Yellow charging circle you are not singing yet, it can stop in less than a minute.

The good thing is the predicted to Full / 100% is usually much later than it will actually take, sometimes even 30 minutes or longer than it will be even when a charger is not charging very quick.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 19 November, 2023 by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

Many thanks @Rooted for sharing these videos, the first one was the more informative and showed all the good points and bad points in my view, and for that person, the best option for him with most of his driving being local short trips around home, and he has plenty of time available and only 2 people the car is ideal, they already have another ICE Mini as the main car for long trips. That said however he also said the same things as the "Taycan" man, but without all the drama, and he is truly an independent, doing YT for his pleasure and to help others as with only 781 subscribers he is I doubt not likely to be monetised and if he was, only going to get pennies for his endeavours.

 

Also, I found reading his comments section very enlightening.  The "Taycan" man, he readily admits that he loves the quietness, smoothness of power delivery, regenerative braking, acceleration, and the instant torque available. Instead, he has become a target for EV owners. Has anyone even understood, that he was already a Porsche (ICE) man before getting his Taycan? His channel was the result of his disappointment with the actual realities of living with an EV compared to how it has been portrayed.  His main gripe is that the infrastructure is insufficient and poorly maintained and that EV drivers are treated like 2nd class drivers in regard to protection from the elements etc and the pricing swings massively between suppliers and the need to have so many various account cards /APPs which also rely on network coverage which is also patchy.

 

Yes, I do agree that there is a lot of click baiting going on, especially with "Taycan" man's thumbnails, but in reality that is no different to newspapers, magazines and many other well known and well respected businesses, but nowhere do I see the negative comments about those, it always seems to be totally reserved for those who have not yet brought into the whole EV ethos yet or those that have but have found out that it is not quite as promised. And those negative remarks are mostly from people who already are EV owners or users?

[Graham Butcher]

12 hours ago, @Lee said:

Top Gear's never slagged off *all* American cars. 

They've taken the **** out of *some* Italian cars. 

They've also admonished some British cars.

The Morris Marina got away lightly IMO.

It, and it's successor the Ital were truly awful cars hammered together by an underappreciated workforce who were supplied badly made panels and components by an equally underappreciated workforce in and around the West Midlands.

My dad worked for a few of those companies as a toolmaker, a press setter engineer and later a CNC setter operator. 

While I was working for Crabtree Electrical, there was one colleague who had an Ital as his company and the thing would flood his passengers' footwell when it rained and the dealers could never where the water was getting into the car from. It was a standing joke among other car users in the company that he used to have a wooden apple box, lined with plastic bags, in his car so that his wife could keep her feet dry by placing them inside the box, this was in the 80s and I had Cortina MkV as my company car and I used to think that the box was a leg pull, until I saw the box myself and his car was clearly identified in the carpark as it nearly always had misted up windows.

 

Yep, Top Gear slagged off many cars from all corners of the globe during the reign of the Trio, including Skoda's and Kia and yet they ironically ended up using a Kia Cee'd as their track car for the celebrity challenge spot.  

Edited 19 November, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[J.R.]

Underappreciated workers at Leyland and their suppliers, that made me chuckle.

 

Red Robbo, now there was an underappreciated guy if ever there was one 😄

 

I had a Marina, it didn't have much if anything going for it other than it was very cheap and meant I could drive around in a relatively new car looking (or so I dreamed ) like I had some money which was important to me then.

 

It was no sh*ttier than any of the BL offerings whose instant rusting paid my rent and put me through college from 16 years old without any family support.

 

In fact in hindsight it rusted far less than most of the other models, probably about the only kind thing I could say about them, the president of the owners club was a nerdy schoolmate of mine.

 

1.8 TC's redefined the term "axle tramp" and took it to a whole new level, the only car I have ever seen that could not make any forward progress on a flat and level frosty car park, even when myself the self proclaimed "Mr Traction Control" could not coax it forward, it was like someone had removed the propshaft.

[J.R.]

The 8à's were the period where manufacturers had generally perfected chassis rail and floorpan sealing but not windscreen and door sealing, first thing to do on most of the vehicles was remove the tooling hole bungs (drain plugs) from the floorpan or drill several largish holes.

 

Once they started rusting it was no longer  problem.

 

Skodas with panoramic sunroofs give their owners an authentic 80's experience.

 

Anyone had to drive a car where their heels were sliding around on an ice rink of a flooded footwell?

[Graham Butcher]

34 minutes ago, J.R. said:

the president of the owners club was a nerdy schoolmate of mine.

 

Is he, by any chance, the person that kept writing into Top Gear complaining about their comments and constant destruction of the Marinas 

Edited 19 November, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[J.R.]

I do believe he was.

 

The more of the old banal everyday cars unloved today that are allowed to be scrapped the greater the future value of original unrestored and restored examples will be.

 

I have a friend, a retired French industrialist who has an aircraft museum, he stores my Lotus Elan, he has an enviable car collection worth a lot of money now because of such rarety, the majority of them are vehicles he owned and drove and could not bear to part with including his honeymoon camping holiday vehicle.

 

I suppose he was lucky in having somewhere to store them and not needing to sell them to buy the next vehicle but they were still pretty much valueless when he restored them, he did it through love and nostalgia and it realy pleases me to know that most are now good investments, all of them were everyday vehicles, no exotics although he has bought a few more interesting veicles over the years includin Edith Piaffs hearse!

 

My absolute favorite is an original, patinated and unrestored Amilcar still used regularly and driven very spiritedly.

[Graham Butcher]

Hmm, thanks for this, it's strange how it seems that people with aircraft also seem to love cars and collect them. I have a friend who owns 2 spitfires and a P51 mustang, all are as original, even down to WW2 bullet hole patches, and he has in his hanger a small collection of cars all kept in cocoons with filtered forced air flow to keep them going rusty etc, many of them are in mint condition and worth a fortune today.

[Graham Butcher]

`-

[Graham Butcher]

Was anyone aware of the dangerous design flaw with the Renault Zoe and The Jeep Wrangler 4E plug-in hybrids? I wonder if this flaw has been built-in with some other PHEV, or possibly even with some of the lesser high spec, more budget orientated BEVs.

 

It has to do with using of the battery casing as part of the cars structure and also building in a firemen access panel to the batteries to allow them to be able to get water jets directly onto the batteries to cool them down. It seems that this allows all toxic fumes from a battery when it goes wrong, to directly vent into the cars' interior rather than to the outside, what could possibly go wrong 🙄

 

 

 

[Ootohere]

? Maybe @lol-lolwill be able to tell us how many Death Trap Renault Zoe there are in this world now.  Or in the UK.   All this fire and explosion stuff is a real horror show.  Not.     What is is the Park and Ride rapid chargers at Edinburgh Airport still being out of service.  Thank goodness I am in a diesel.   Not seen any cars on fire or exploding for ages now.  Other than on vids on here. 

[Graham Butcher]

True, I likewise have not seen any for some time, the last car fire I recall seeing as on old VW split screen microbus (petrol) which caught fire while being driven just down the road from me, by the time fire brigade arrived, it was a total loss. Still, all the same, these events are happening and the StachedD is a trained fire officer and is researching these EV fires and if he thinks that although, they don't happen currently, as often ICE cars, when they do, they are far worse and more dangerous, then he ought to be listened to.

Edited 22 November, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[Paws4Thot]

Well, FWIW the last car fire I saw was a V@*xh@11 Firelighter Z@f1r@, and the one before that was a turbo Renault which had a bird build its nest on the turbocharger.