the truth about electric cars

[Ootohere]

Whatever you are manufacturing and selling needs to make a profit unless you are maybe selling financial services or money laundering. 

[Graham Butcher]

It really is beginning to look open warfare on cars regardless of their choice of fuel, I already posted in another thread about London parking charges skyrocketing for EV vehicles, so although they get away with the emission charges, they are going for EV's another way, by charging more for parking permits etc, in some cases by 1800% increase based upon their weight and sheer bulk. Today I came across this video which claims that despite far greater and stricter emission regulations, the level of emissions over the last 12 years, the EU reports that big heavy luxury and the huge rise in the number SUV's, including EV ones are the reason for the levels of pollution not reducing, even though engines for the average family cars becoming way more efficient, is what have said that smaller engined cars actually pollute far less the cars of 12 years ago. So as wealth seems to be massing in the more affluent members of the human race, they are buying far more of the big luxury barges with the 3 litre engines and higher along with the high performance cars, polluting more, while the rest of the population are being squeezed more and in some cases downsizing or switching to EV to escape the ever-increasing LEZ zones being set up across the country and the world.

 

So it seems then after all, that EV's are not as clean as we are being told they, well would have guessed that?

 

Paris has voted to triple parking charges for EV SUV's parking in the city, so a 6-hour parking session will now be costing £192 (225 Euros) for EV SUV's and for normal EV's £64 (75 Euros) for 6 hours parking.

 

 

Paris passes landmark vote to triple parking charges for some SUVs | Regit

 

[Ootohere]

Paris Parking Charges for those Visiting the City Centre and Parking.   

Residents from the City Centre can still have their SUV,s in the City and Parking Permits.  It is aimed at those travelling in from the suburbs and outwith the city.

 

................

HYUNDAI backed UK electric vehicle maker Arrival enters administration.

 

Valued at $21bn in 2021.   Holy taking the total p!$$ out of some people somewhere. 

 Workers lost jobs, someone must have earned out of getting no place fast.

Edited 6 February by Rooted

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

It really is beginning to look open warfare on cars regardless of their choice of fuel, I already posted in another thread about London parking charges skyrocketing for EV vehicles, so although they get away with the emission charges, they are going for EV's another way, by charging more for parking permits etc, in some cases by 1800% increase based upon their weight and sheer bulk. Today I came across this video which claims that despite far greater and stricter emission regulations, the level of emissions over the last 12 years, the EU reports that big heavy luxury and the huge rise in the number SUV's, including EV ones are the reason for the levels of pollution not reducing, even though engines for the average family cars becoming way more efficient, is what have said that smaller engined cars actually pollute far less the cars of 12 years ago. So as wealth seems to be massing in the more affluent members of the human race, they are buying far more of the big luxury barges with the 3 litre engines and higher along with the high performance cars, polluting more, while the rest of the population are being squeezed more and in some cases downsizing or switching to EV to escape the ever-increasing LEZ zones being set up across the country and the world.

 

So it seems then after all, that EV's are not as clean as we are being told they, well would have guessed that?

 

Paris has voted to triple parking charges for EV SUV's parking in the city, so a 6-hour parking session will now be costing £192 (225 Euros) for EV SUV's and for normal EV's £64 (75 Euros) for 6 hours parking.

 

 

Paris passes landmark vote to triple parking charges for some SUVs | Regit

 

 

The electric SUV has to weigh more than two tonnes to get hit with the higher charges and that means certainly the French SUV EV will not get the extra charge as even the big Scenic SUV  comes in at 1952 Kgs even with the huge 87 kWh battery pack.

 

The 60 kWh Skoda might creep under but even the not that large 77 kWh battery packed Skodas and other sister clones will attract the higher tax as they are way weight over 2T.

   

 

[lol-lol]

On 05/02/2024 at 14:47, Rooted said:

Whatever you are manufacturing and selling needs to make a profit unless you are maybe selling financial services or money laundering. 

 

Bit of a narrow article, again, mentioning all the darker issues and not any of the large number of highlights.

 

Dacia have sold bucket loads of Dacia Springs, hopefully at a bit of a profit though I do not know how that is even possible at 13,000 Euros as in Germany.

 

SAIC MG have been a massive success as have the Maxis vans based on what they sell them in Europe and what they sell for in China and elsewhere.

 

Surprised at Polestar but with the European subsidies disappearing and TESTLAs shareprice is something that Elon has said he is not too bothered about if cutting his selling prices and therefore margins is fine for a while if it succeeds in destroying opposition which it appears to be doing with most the American and European legacy car companies.  

 

[Graham Butcher]

57 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Paris Parking Charges for those Visiting the City Centre and Parking.   

Residents from the City Centre can still have their SUV,s in the City and Parking Permits.  It is aimed at those travelling in from the suburbs and outwith the city.

 

................

HYUNDAI backed UK electric vehicle maker Arrival enters administration.

 

Valued at $21bn in 2021.   Holy taking the total p!$$ out of some people somewhere. 

 Workers lost jobs, someone must have earned out of getting no place fast.

How to attract tourism, the French way, lesson 101 tax the hell out of them if they dare to drive to Paris 🙄 The fact residents can still keep their SUV's is just the thin end of the wedge.

 

Not only Arrival, but Polestar is now being ditched by Volvo so they will now become wholly owned by the Chinese group Geely.

[Graham Butcher]

Agreed, but the problem is however, just how reliable are these reports, are they just clickbait, as Ford and others like BMW are all supposed to pull the plug on EV's and reverting back ICE, then there comes reports of both announcing new EV models so what is the real truth?

[Ootohere]

All click bait regardless of the publication

. But then they are there to pass on news, stories, rumours or speculation. 

 

Motability have a lot of EV,s to sell in the next year or 3 in the UK via BCA.

 

Edited 6 February by Rooted

[skomaz]

53 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Elon has said he is not too bothered about if cutting his selling prices and therefore margins is fine for a while if it succeeds in destroying opposition which it appears to be doing with most the American and European legacy car companies.  

 

 

Evidence for the latter please - as per the 'hydrocarbons to burn are a rapidly dying sector' it would be good to see some concrete evidence showing that the European legacy car companies are being 'destroyed' by Tesla...

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, skomaz said:

 

Evidence for the latter please - as per the 'hydrocarbons to burn are a rapidly dying sector' it would be good to see some concrete evidence showing that the European legacy car companies are being 'destroyed' by Tesla...

 

Apologies for delay in responding but on a slow internet at Manchester hotel compared to my fast home connection.

 

VW CEO describes the VAG company as having the roof on fire.  They are some 11B Euros out on their finance and are looking to make savings.  They are laying of 1 in 5 employees, in Europe, over 100,00 employees, EV production line have gone down to single shift whilst TESLA are building new factories, Berlin, Mexico and now have the best selling car in the world whilst VAG and other legacy companies who use to have the number one selling car are now slipping down the sales charts....

 

I will dig out some of these statements which are either from the VW CEO himself or can be seen in the sales charts and news items about cutting down production, job losses etc.
 

[Stonekeeper]

Wolfsburg. The Volkswagen Group increased its deliveries in 2023 by
12 percent to 9.24 million vehicles. All regions contributed to this growth, with Europe
(+19.7 percent) and North America (+17.9 percent) being the main drivers. China, the Group's largest single market, grew by 1.6 percent despite a challenging market environment. The Volkswagen Group expanded its market share in Europe as well as North and South America and thus also increased slightly worldwide. Almost all brands recorded growth, in some cases substantial. SEAT/CUPRA achieved the highest increase in the passenger car segment with a rise of 34.6 percent, while MAN led the way in the truck segment with an increase of 37.1 percent. At the same time, the Volkswagen Group successfully continued its transformation and delivered 771,100 fully electric vehicles. This corresponds to an increase of 34.7 percent compared to the previous year. The share of all-electric vehicles in deliveries rose to 8.3 percent compared to 6.9 percent in 2022.

 

https://www.volkswagen-group.com/en/press-releases/volkswagen-group-posts-solid-growth-in-deliveries-in-2023-and-strong-increase-in-all-electric-vehicles-18057

 

Toyota enjoyed a second successive year of record-breaking new vehicle sales in 2023. 

End-of-year results show group sales – Toyota and Lexus passenger cars and light commercial vehicles combined – reached a new high of 145,142 units, securing a 6.47 per cent market share. 

Toyota passenger cars commanded a new record share of the retail market, at 7.19 per cent with 62,020 sales, while business and fleet car sales totalled 47,395 units, giving the brand 4.56 per cent of the market.  

 

https://media.toyota.co.uk/toyota-sales-surge-to-new-record-in-2023/

 

The latest data shows that Tesla continues to dominate, but its market share is shrinking as competitors roll out new models.

• Since January 2022, for example, Tesla's share of the EV market fell from 72% to 54% — and it will likely slide below 50% in the next month or two, says Tom Libby, associate director of industry analysis at S&P Global Mobility.
• Tesla's Model S sedan, in particular, has been struggling. Registrations for the S plummeted 75% in January 2023, while those of Mercedes-Benz's new EQS sedan quadrupled.

Where it stands: Tesla's Model Y and Model 3 hold the largest market share and are still growing, but rival cars are quickly gaining ground.

• General Motors' Chevrolet Bolt is the most popular non-Tesla EV, with a 10% share — due in part to a $6,000 price cut following a damaging battery recall.
• Volkswagen's ID.4 and Ford's Mustang Mach-E rounded out the top five EVs registered in January by market share.

Reality check: Less than 1% of the 279 million cars and light trucks on American roads are electric.

• Even in California, the country's leading EV market, they represent just 2.6% of all registered automobiles.
• It will take a couple of decades for the slow transition from gasoline to electric vehicles to be complete.

https://www.axios.com/2023/04/05/tesla-ev-electric-vehicle-adoption

[Graham Butcher]

@lol-lolThe same kind of things are rumoured to have been said by the top brass of GM, Ford and others, though. But as always, are they true, because while they all appear to be claim that EVs are the cause and yet I seem to recall reports that all of them are still planning releasing new EV models. So one statement seems to contradict the other?? 

Edited 6 February by Graham Butcher

[Stonekeeper]

2023

 

Tesla are 14th in the world car group ranking for all car sales

 

https://www.focus2move.com/world-car-group-ranking/

 

 

[lol-lol]

6 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lolThe same kind of things are rumoured to have been said by the top brass of GM, Ford and others, though. But as always, are they true, because while they all appear to be claim that EVs are the cause and yet I seem to recall reports that all of them are still planning releasing new EV models. So one statement seems to contradict the other?? 

 

Quite cheap to build a prototype and have plans but reality is having a production line spitting out a few thousand cars a week ie investing the billion dollars in that.

 

ID2 still seems a way off but Renault 5 and citreon e3 are imminent this month or next.

 

Ford, GM and the others, maybe not Hyundai, and making big losses on each ev they sell as the cannot get the cheap batteries or make a car in ten hours like TESLA and BYD do.

 

So what do they do ? Cut back EV production to buy time. Get their government to remove EV subsidies and next step to add extra duties above the ten percent customs tariff for Chinese EVs.

 

[lol-lol]

5 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

2023

 

Tesla are 14th in the world car group ranking for all car sales

 

https://www.focus2move.com/world-car-group-ranking/

 

 

 

Be more interesting to see by sales values as tesla do not make cheap cars yet ?

 

Also to compared these companies market cap ie worth as is TESLA not worth more than the next 4 put together ?

 

[Stonekeeper]

10 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Be more interesting to see by sales values as tesla do not make cheap cars yet ?

 

Also to compared these companies market cap ie worth as is TESLA not worth more than the next 4 put together ?

 

 

In Colorado a Tesla model 3 rwd is £26,299

 

https://insideevs.com/news/692133/cheapest-us-states-buy-tesla-modely/

Edited 6 February by Stonekeeper

[lol-lol]

4 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

In Colorado a Tesla model 3 rwd is £26,299

 

https://insideevs.com/news/692133/cheapest-us-states-buy-tesla-modely/

 

Yes with the subsidies but like when I bought my Zoe in the UK there were subsidies which went to the car dealership and manufacturer so the car,  an LFP model 3 or my Zoe is closer to 35,000 or 40,000 dollars before the subsidies and you taxpayers stump a good few thousand which goes back to the ev manufacturer as well as the reduced after subsidy payment.

US states are adding Federal and State subsidies.

 

When I bought the Zoe it has UK government, Renault UK and local dealer bungs in it. £34K car ended up closer to £25.5 k I recall.

[wyx087]

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

It really is beginning to look open warfare on cars regardless of their choice of fuel, I already posted in another thread about London parking charges skyrocketing for EV vehicles, so although they get away with the emission charges, they are going for EV's another way, by charging more for parking permits etc, in some cases by 1800% increase based upon their weight and sheer bulk.

It is returning to normal pricing, stop receiving discounts. There is no excess surcharge ("charging more") on the vehicle for being an EV.

 

6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Paris has voted to triple parking charges for EV SUV's parking in the city, so a 6-hour parking session will now be costing £192 (225 Euros) for EV SUV's and for normal EV's £64 (75 Euros) for 6 hours parking.

There is no tripling parking charges targetted against EV SUV's.

1.6t for regular vehicles, 2t for EV's.

 

Most traditional automaker cannot compete in this area, must be dedicated EV platforms. Most EV, even mid-sized i4, are over 2t. Whereas the spacious Tesla Model Y comes in under 2t and wouldn't get excess fee.

 

 

4 hours ago, skomaz said:

 

Evidence for the latter please - as per the 'hydrocarbons to burn are a rapidly dying sector' it would be good to see some concrete evidence showing that the European legacy car companies are being 'destroyed' by Tesla...

VW "loosing EV race to Tesla and China": https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/14/business/volkswagen-losing-electric-car-race/index.html

If VW cannot compete...... by numbers only a single VW vehicle in top 10 in 2023 Q1 to Q3: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/electric-vehicle-sales-by-model-2023/

Outside of EV's, 2023 world top selling car is a Tesla Model Y, European legacy car company not in top 3: https://www.best-selling-cars.com/brands/2023-full-year-global-best-selling-car-models-worldwide/

 

But destroyed is perhaps a bit strong. I'd say more of "out competed by Tesla and Chinese in EV segment".

 

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

In Colorado a Tesla model 3 rwd is £26,299

 

https://insideevs.com/news/692133/cheapest-us-states-buy-tesla-modely/

This is after state subsidy before taxes. The retail price is unchanged at $39k plus taxes.

Not quite right to use GBP to invoke comparison with UK cars...... remember UK price for same car is £40k includes VAT.

 

But at same time, it's not expensive either, when mid spec Golf is around similar price. 3 series also starts at £40k and Passat starts at £35k. German cars have expensive optional extras. Post-Covid cars are expensive.

[Ootohere]

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68130432

 

 

Edited 7 February by Rooted

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, Rooted said:

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68130432

 

 

 

Reducing the VAT has got to be the more obvious candidate. Since leaving the EU there has been 3 years of opportunity to reduce VAT rates and change VATable status be very little, bar sanitary towels which UK gov deserves some credit.

 

Just lower VAT on non luxury EVs ie less than £25k say I reckon could spur on EV sales and get those old Diesels etc scrapped.

 

Edited 7 February by lol-lol

[Ootohere]

[skomaz]

39 minutes ago, Rooted said:

 

Now that I quite like the look of...   It's got some nice chunky design vibes going on and if cheap with a decentish range...

[Ootohere]

There are Small Chunky ones coming and the FIAT Panda EV might be a winner & the Renault 4.

Pity that Suzuki have not got an Ignis or Jimny sized EV ready, they showed the Jimny one about a decade back. 

Edited 7 February by Rooted

[wyx087]

I don't think EV need government help to push forward. Reducing VAT or giving grants will only spur the manufacturer to charge more. Remember when £5000 EV purchase grant dropped to £2500, magically most EV/PHEV price dropped by same amount?

 

Besides, even £20k is expensive for many people who only buy second hand at price range £1-5k.

 

Money is far better spent on National Grid and DNO to speed up charging infrastructure installs. Most importantly is making sure on-street chargers cost similar price as private driveway to resolve people that has been disenfranchised. Make plugging in as easy as possible for everyone. Build them and they will come.

[Ootohere]

The National Grid is a private owned thing, owned by overseas investors / shareholders with the profits leaving the UK.

 

BBC 5 Live, Wake up to money had a Dealership Group CEO saying just how Private EV sales are right down and it is Fleet Sales / Lease vehicles and because of BIK etc and Company Cars then the drivers are not customers buying / leasing EV,s for the family.

 

The incentives are for business,s / business users and not for the people wanting to buy / lease personal vehicles.   

The Motor Trade know what they want from the UK Government the only one without incentives for Hard Working or not hard working families buying EV,s.  

 

PS

Less spending on Chargers in the London area might be a good idea until the rest of England gets more Rapid Chargers and not just on Motorways. 

 

...............

Where has Rolls Royce got to with Small Nuclear Modular plants?

Now that Boris has gone.

Edited 7 February by Rooted