the truth about electric cars

[wyx087]

Most first time Tesla drivers are recommended to use "chill" mode to have the "soft start" feel as you've mentioned. It dampens and delays the accelerator response profile. Feels very chilled driving in this mode, whereas standard mode feels nerves and dart-y. Similarly, there's the Eco mode for Leaf, which maps accelerator in an exponential profile rather than default logarithmic growth profile. I think most EV's with drive mode selection will have that kind of switch, as root alluded to.

 

Improved EV high speed efficiency is indeed very important. Maintaining "70"mph uses up a lot more than driving at 70mph. This is how RSymons efficiency test are getting very good numbers, they drive "at speed limit" but often end up in traffic which drives at optimum ~65mph.

 

Also correctly pointed out by 'Name, burst of acceleration doesn't kill range. It's maintaining the speed against rolling resistance and air that pushes back kills the range. The bigger frontal surface area and drag coefficient the worst it's going to get.

 

 

[Ootohere]

There are so many different EV,s and there are drivers out there that should be made to resit their tests.

A few years ago the amount of Renault Zoe about without lights on in the dark was unreal.  Then the MG EV,s from Motability, Peugoets etc with peole who do not indicate or even get pulled out at junctions.

There are some really old codgers in the top price ev,s that should be off the road, and younger muppets as well.

 

Same with PHEV,s.   It is like New Drivers, or people that have not driven for years get a New EV, maybe a home charger and the world is their oyster.

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, Rooted said:

There are so many different EV,s and there are drivers out there that should be made to resit their tests.

A few years ago the amount of Renault Zoe about without lights on in the dark was unreal.  Then the MG EV,s from Motability, Peugoets etc with people who do not indicate or even get pulled out at junctions.  There are some really old codgers in the top price ev,s that should be off the road, and younger muppets as well.

Same with PHEV,s.   It is like New Drivers, or people that have not driven for years get a New EV, maybe a home charger and the world is their oyster.

 

It constantly surprises me the low level of knowledge. The LED lights that Renault have been using for some years now using about a quarter of the power that the 55/60 watt bulbs car use to use.  The traction battery in the XE50 Zoe has (52x60x60) ie 187 M joules of energy.  The headlamps are probably taking around 30W.  If my maths is correct the traction battery could keep those headlights running for 5 years continuously.  Having the headlights on and, or charging your phone in the car aint going to make any real difference to the range.  The various dash systems probably take more power than this ie the TFT screens, 9 inch Google maps system could easily be a 100W I suppose but one is still talking small beer. 

 

EV's tend to have great displays and when I can cruising along on the Zoe ZE50 the sort of figure I like to see for the motive power usage is 10 to 13 kWh so I know I have about 4 to 5 hours running at that power output perhaps just skimming around the double nickel 55 mph or so and that power usage is 13,000 joules (ie watts) per second to shove the 1.75 tonnes of me through the air, overcome hysteresis tyre rolling resistance (thought to be about a quarter of losses on an EV compared to only a fifth on an ICE cars due to EV's extra weight) and the up hill down dale but I get 90% of that energy back via regen.

 

I think heating is the only major draw, even on a Heat Pump fitted car like the Zoe one might be using 500W or so on a really cold day.  Heated seats are very efficient I think.  Mine did not get fitted ones as it was a victim of the part shortage so I got a couple of pair of heated seat covers sent over from China, £12 each including freight costs via Amazon, even on low ie sub 30W do not need them to have the cabin set at more than 20C so climate control is only using a few hundred watts at most. Lights set on auto, charging phones etc iva the 4 USB ports it has front and back.   Looking forward to the Renault 5 launch in a few days but the Zoe is a hard at to follow, except maybe on looks where the 5 kills it of course.

 

[J.R.]

4 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

power usage is 13,000 joules (ie watts) per second to shove the 1.75 tonnes of me through the air, overcome hysteresis tyre rolling resistance (thought to be about a quarter of losses on an EV compared to only a fifth on an ICE cars due to EV's extra weight) and the up hill down dale but I get 90% of that energy back via regen.

 

90% of what specific energy?

 

How do you get 90% back of the energy used to raise the mass when 25% of it was lost in doing so and another 25ù of the remaining 75% will again be lost?

 

I am not trying to score points, I genuinely would like to know the approx figures, justified ones and not marketing claims, I used to think that coasting downhill was (tyre, transmission, air resistance losses notwithstanding) was cancelling out the extra fuel used on a hilly return journey compared to a flat one but someone on here rightfully pointed out the thermal efficiency of my IC engine and that most of the energy went to heat and not locomotion.

 

I understand that electrical to locomotive (or is it motive?) power transmission is much more efficient, I would like to know what the real savings through regenerative braking etc really are.

[Winston_Woof]

39 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

It constantly surprises me the low level of knowledge. The LED lights that Renault have been using for some years now using about a quarter of the power that the 55/60 watt bulbs car use to use.  The traction battery in the XE50 Zoe has (52x60x60) ie 187 M joules of energy.  The headlamps are probably taking around 30W.  If my maths is correct the traction battery could keep those headlights running for 5 years continuously.  Having the headlights on and, or charging your phone in the car aint going to make any real difference to the range.  The various dash systems probably take more power than this ie the TFT screens, 9 inch Google maps system could easily be a 100W I suppose but one is still talking small beer. 

 

 

Don't most EVs have a 12V subsystem that is charged by the traction battery to power lights , radio etc etc rather then drawing directly from a High Voltage system ?

WOnder what (if any) efficiency losses there are involved there ;o)

[Winston_Woof]

28 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

I understand that electrical to locomotive (or is it motive?) power transmission is much more efficient, I would like to know what the real savings through regenerative braking etc really are.

 which is why trains use diesel-electric rather than driving the traction wheels directly from the diesel engine

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

90% of what specific energy?

How do you get 90% back of the energy used to raise the mass when 25% of it was lost in doing so and another 25ù of the remaining 75% will again be lost?

I am not trying to score points, I genuinely would like to know the approx figures, justified ones and not marketing claims, I used to think that coasting downhill was (tyre, transmission, air resistance losses notwithstanding) was cancelling out the extra fuel used on a hilly return journey compared to a flat one but someone on here rightfully pointed out the thermal efficiency of my IC engine and that most of the energy went to heat and not locomotion.

I understand that electrical to locomotive (or is it motive?) power transmission is much more efficient, I would like to know what the real savings through regenerative braking etc really are.

 

As I understand it the energy recoup is about 90% efficient ie 90% of the kinetic energy is converted to electrical battery energy.  When used back in to motive power it will be another operation of about 90% efficiency so all in all it is about 80% for the in and then back out again.

 

What one does in practice is monitor the actual speed limits and either let the car roll down the hill without any use of pedals ie regen or hopefully wasteful disc brake braking and then jab the gear lever in max regen when one hits the speed limit or in in anticipation of a lower speed limit one can see ahead.  I use freewheelin sometimes ie put the car in neutral down a long hill as that is the least drag on the internal fictions and then dab back in to low or high regen when speed limits near.

 

When I look at the car's internal stats for a full to near empty battery usage the regen'd energy usually is about 10 to 15% of the energy that has been used so a good extension of some 20 miles or so of range due to the regen mechanisms.

 

So flat journeys would be possible to do a bit more range as there would not be that need to regen and redeploy the energy but with both regen and with heat pumps both the hilly terrain and colder temps can be mitigated and it needs to as both hillyness and coldness are quite plentiful in the English Midlands, Wales and Devon where I do most of my driving so I am pleased to drive well engineering products like the Zoe ZE50, the Clio e-tech and even the mild hybrid Arkana with its coasting. 

 

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

Don't most EVs have a 12V subsystem that is charged by the traction battery to power lights , radio etc etc rather then drawing directly from a High Voltage system ?
WOnder what (if any) efficiency losses there are involved there ;o)

 

It is an odd one that EVs have not gone all in on Lithium batteries and still have a lead acid 12v battery which is heavy and not that great at taking charge a 1C and above ie charging in an hour or less.  Just shows what car makers do to keep cost down.

 

I converted my Yamaha R3 to lithium and plan to do the same to my Yamaha Tracer and would like to do the same to my Zoe which is due a check of the lead acid at 3 years ie in about 7 months time. More money but should be OK for longer and sd not needed to provide a cranking current should be happy days probably get away with less than 50 Ah. 

 

[Graham Butcher]

I thought that Tesla had gone with Lithium battery for the car normal electrics and not lead acid, or have I got that wrong?

[Graham Butcher]

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Most first time Tesla drivers are recommended to use "chill" mode to have the "soft start" feel as you've mentioned. It dampens and delays the accelerator response profile. Feels very chilled driving in this mode, whereas standard mode feels nerves and dart-y. Similarly, there's the Eco mode for Leaf, which maps accelerator in an exponential profile rather than default logarithmic growth profile. I think most EV's with drive mode selection will have that kind of switch, as root alluded to.

 

Improved EV high speed efficiency is indeed very important. Maintaining "70"mph uses up a lot more than driving at 70mph. This is how RSymons efficiency test are getting very good numbers, they drive "at speed limit" but often end up in traffic which drives at optimum ~65mph.

 

Also correctly pointed out by 'Name, burst of acceleration doesn't kill range. It's maintaining the speed against rolling resistance and air that pushes back kills the range. The bigger frontal surface area and drag coefficient the worst it's going to get.

 

 

Well that fact alone that there is a "Chill" mode that damps the acceleration etc to a more controllable rate and something akin to the more everyday family car is a massive big nail in the early adoption of electric as a motive power then in my view.

 

I'm guessing that the decision was made to offer the customer the choice of average or blistering performance was a good marketing ploy, but in reality might actually have been a massive mistake as it looks likely to be part of the insurance rise in general for all cars and not just EV's because EVs are not just going to crash into EVs are they?

 

They should have just kept to the traditional sales strategy of having the normal runabout car and hot option at an additional cost, not very well thought through marketing teams. 😒

[lol-lol]

36 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I thought that Tesla had gone with Lithium battery for the car normal electrics and not lead acid, or have I got that wrong?

 

I have read that only the recent Model Ss and Model Xs, both not normally sold in the UK recently as only doing in LHD, aer fitted with Lithium rather than lead-acid 12V.

 

TESLA is moving to 48v architecture for lighting etc so that might be the time to adopt Lithium, or more probably Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for the 12/48v system.

 

All nominal voltages of course as though lead acid is about 2.1v per cell ie 6 cells gives you 12.6 volts, LIthium is 3.6v per cell, so do you use 4 or what, and Lithium Iron Phosphate is a nominal 3.2V spiking up to 3.6v near 100% charge......   Four LiFePO4 cells then for 12.8v nominal.

 

[Graham Butcher]

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

I have read that only the recent Model Ss and Model Xs, both not normally sold in the UK recently as only doing in LHD, aer fitted with Lithium rather than lead-acid 12V.

 

TESLA is moving to 48v architecture for lighting etc so that might be the time to adopt Lithium, or more probably Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for the 12/48v system.

 

All nominal voltages of course as though lead acid is about 2.1v per cell ie 6 cells gives you 12.6 volts, LIthium is 3.6v per cell, so do you use 4 or what, and Lithium Iron Phosphate is a nominal 3.2V spiking up to 3.6v near 100% charge......   Four LiFePO4 cells then for 12.8v nominal.

 

Well according to this video from "Just Get a Tesla" the model Y has 15V Lithium-ion battery rather than a 12V lead acid battery and that battery is supposed to be a "Life Time" battery that costs, wait for it, £2,000.

 

 

[wyx087]

6 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

 which is why trains use diesel-electric rather than driving the traction wheels directly from the diesel engine

Have you read about Nissan e-power? Petrol engine that powers electric motor:

https://www.nissan.co.uk/range/e-power-cars.html

 

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

I have read that only the recent Model Ss and Model Xs, both not normally sold in the UK recently as only doing in LHD, aer fitted with Lithium rather than lead-acid 12V.

All Tesla 3/Y after around 2021 are li-on 15v batteries. My MY has Li-on low voltage battery.

Tesla S/X "raven" I think are li-on, raven powertrain cars are available in UK as RHD.

 

The reason they have low voltage battery in EV is to function as ballast, ensuring there is minimum voltage swing. In micro electronics, think of them as the capacitor we'd put  across power source. The DC-DC inverter stepping down from high voltage battery will do the heavy lifting powering stuff.

 

7 hours ago, J.R. said:

I used to think that coasting downhill was (tyre, transmission, air resistance losses notwithstanding) was cancelling out the extra fuel used on a hilly return journey compared to a flat one but someone on here rightfully pointed out the thermal efficiency of my IC engine and that most of the energy went to heat and not locomotion.

 

I understand that electrical to locomotive (or is it motive?) power transmission is much more efficient, I would like to know what the real savings through regenerative braking etc really are.

Coasting will always be the most efficient way, same in EV where coasting doesn't cost anything in energy conversion.

 

90% is also what I've heard regarding regen braking. This means assuming no other losses, the 9 kWh you put into accelerating the car (with 10 kWh from battery), you'll get 8.1 kWh back into the battery. But there's always other losses, so in the real world, by the time we've put down 9 kWh, many of which would have been used to overcome rolling/air resistance, etc.

 

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

They should have just kept to the traditional sales strategy of having the normal runabout car and hot option at an additional cost, not very well thought through marketing teams. 😒

How else am I going to get the purse string holder to allow me to buy a good performance car

 

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

How else am I going to get the purse string holder to allow me to buy a good performance car

 

What is your top priority here, getting your hands on a good performance car (self first) or putting the planet (allegedly) first? 😄

[Winston_Woof]

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Have you read about Nissan e-power? Petrol engine that powers electric motor:

https://www.nissan.co.uk/range/e-power-cars.html

 

 

a REX (Range EXtender) like the Ampera/Volt & BMW i3

[Ootohere]

Are Nissan really just taking the Pith?

 

It depends really on how many MPG you really can get with the vehicles. 

 

 

PS / EDIT.

The Family size car MPG with a family / airport transport  set up in is relevant.  Not just Rep mode of 1 man or woman and not even a dog in it.

I do wish they would get 400 kg of ballast in the car with them when testing for economy.

 

As for ride / noise / comfort, i want that reported on with a loaded car not some skinny or even overweight person on their own.

& i want the economy of that 5 or 7 seater with the people in and the heating and ventilation having to be used. 

 

 

Hardly comprehensive.  On your Jack Jones.  Motoring journalist / Vlogger mode.

Honest enough though.  

http://youtube.com/watch?v=E6fMchYQ1G8

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 February by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

The Nissan is hardly special though is it, at least I don't think it is. It still is ICE and only achieves at best 53mpg. I can get over 62mpg from my diesel and over 600 miles from it's 60litre tank, is a 2litre engine of 150hp output. Those mpg figures have been achieved with nye on 40 stones of bodies in the car. 

 

It has zero capability of ever being zero emission in town though, despite it being more efficient. 

Edited 17 February by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

10-12 miles a litre so nothing special and just about Average Co2 g/km and that will be kidology from the WLTP regime.

 

This con of 'Electrification' total crap, PHEV / MHEV, Self charge and these are not Range Extenders because it is a generator,  is nonsense is what is stopping the manufacturers getting on with lighter and more efficient vehicles and more efficient BEV.s.

[Graham Butcher]

5 minutes ago, Rooted said:

10-12 miles a litre so nothing special and just about Average Co2 g/km and that will be kidology from the WLTP regime.

 

This con of 'Electrification' total crap, PHEV / MHEV, Self charge and these are not Range Extenders because it is a generator,  is nonsense is what is stopping the manufacturers getting on with lighter and more efficient vehicles and more efficient BEV.s.

Agreed, lighter and more efficient vehicles of both ICE and BEV varieties would be of great benefit all round for everybody. We started down that road a while back, and then everybody decided that they all wanted to have these huge great powerful mud pluggers in cities, which of course we all know is where their capabilities are really needed🙄. Huge great 4x4s and other similar SUV's are just spewing vast amounts of Co2 and other emissions and are wiping out the reductions that others are making by opting for more sensible sized power plants and efficiency. Do these people not understand that we all need to make compromises in order to clean up our act and ensure that our and future descendants have a planet that is capable of supporting them? 

[lol-lol]

5 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Agreed, lighter and more efficient vehicles of both ICE and BEV varieties would be of great benefit all round for everybody. We started down that road a while back, and then everybody decided that they all wanted to have these huge great powerful mud pluggers in cities, which of course we all know is where their capabilities are really needed🙄. Huge great 4x4s and other similar SUV's are just spewing vast amounts of Co2 and other emissions and are wiping out the reductions that others are making by opting for more sensible sized power plants and efficiency. Do these people not understand that we all need to make compromises in order to clean up our act and ensure that our and future descendants have a planet that is capable of supporting them? 

 

Not all SUVs as sprinkling a bit of EV magic on to a turbo-petrol machine can produce some incredible results.

Renault UK asked me to test the Austral when it came out last year and it is an impressive machine not just for the sheer amount of tech in the cabin, anti-collision for cyclist and pedestrians as well as other vehicles put it emissions and fuel consumption for a bid segment D car are remarkable.

Car would slip in to EV only mode at anything south of 80 mph if the conditions are right. It will average over 60 mpg in the combined cycle.

 

UK model just gets the 2 kWh hybrid battery but other countries ie LHD European mainland can get an Austral with a 10 kWh hybrid battery and plug in ability but UK might well not get that tech as it is just for mainstream markets.  Personally looking forward to the prettier Rafela, same D segment platform to Austral and 1.2 turbo with hefty EV assist. 

Renault ask me to the Scenic launch but not too bothered but looking forward to the 5 launch soon.

[wyx087]

21 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

What is your top priority here, getting your hands on a good performance car (self first) or putting the planet (allegedly) first? 😄

Both is achievable with EV

 

21 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

a REX (Range EXtender) like the Ampera/Volt & BMW i3

Yes. But Unfortunately unlike Ampera/i3 REx, the Nissan e-power is 100% fossil fuel powered. No option to plug in.

 

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

The Nissan is hardly special though is it, at least I don't think it is. It still is ICE and only achieves at best 53mpg. I can get over 62mpg from my diesel and over 600 miles from it's 60litre tank, is a 2litre engine of 150hp output. Those mpg figures have been achieved with nye on 40 stones of bodies in the car. 

 

It has zero capability of ever being zero emission in town though, despite it being more efficient. 

In terms of capability it's not special at all. 100% of its energy still comes from combustion and 100% of its energy still produces tailpipe emissions.

 

But the fact it de-couples ICE from wheels mean it has potential to have good EV driving feel. It's about time we de-couple ICE from cars, de-couple the idea that ICE is the soul of the car.

 

Edited 17 February by wyx087
E10 fuel is not 100% fossil fuel. Thanks for correction.

[xman]

2 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

It's still a 100% fossil fuel powered car.

 

Incorrect, using E10 it's 90% fossil fuel powered

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Both is achievable with EV

 

Only at the added expense of everyone's insurance climbing through the roof. The world really does not need the hugely powerful cars that it already has. There are so few opportunities to be able to fully exploit their performance without taking massive gambles not only with your life as the driver, but also gambling with the lives of your passengers as well as all the other road users. Want to experience that type of power, go to a racetrack where you will be among other similar minded folk, speed junkies. 

 

I reserve judgement on if EV cars will be the saviour of the planet, I think we will discover some real horror stories over the years in just the same fashion that are about the impact of fossil fuels, which, we are now really getting to grips with the minimising of fossil fuel damage, and just as we are dramatically reducing the harm that ICE has been doing, we go and destroy that work by introducing larger, heavier vehicles with ever-increasing engine sizes and emissions 

 

 

Edited 17 February by Graham Butcher

[wyx087]

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

Only at the added expense of everyone's insurance climbing through the roof. The world really does not need the hugely powerful cars that it already has. There are so few opportunities to be able to fully exploit their performance without taking massive gambles not only with your life as the driver, but also gambling with the lives of your passengers as well as all the other road users. Want to experience that type of power, go to a racetrack where you will be among other similar minded folk, speed junkies. 

By that logic no road legal high performance cars should ever exist and people should never buy them.

 

Yet here we are, people driving around with all sort of cars.

 

The benefit with EV is that one can experience the power safely from 0 mph to legal speed limit. But I drive around in chill mode and let autopilot do the speed as much as possible. A squirt of power to jump out of blind spots never hurts.

[xman]

7 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

There are so few opportunities to be able to fully exploit their performance

Here's one way