the truth about electric cars

[Graham Butcher]

15 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

IIRC car manufacturers are required to make key components (whatever that means) for 10 years after the end of production - how critical that is depends entirely on the meaning of "key components".

 

BTW Skoda stop updating sat nav maps only 5 years after the particular infotainment system is no longer used in production, so clearly they don't regard being able to find your destination as critical!

Yes, I understand that, but if need be an after market sat nav is pretty inexpensive, I use one all the time, despite the built-in being up-to-date with its maps because the after market offers far more useful features like speed camera alerts, red light cameras, accident black spots speed limits, toll roads, congestion zones, live traffic updates and also alerts if the speed limit is exceeded, etc.

 

Critical parts that would prevent the car from being used for its core function as a means of transport such as in ICE, coil packs, ECU's etc as these parts all talk to each other and have the ability to brick a modern car in EV's the main controls are all electronic, speed controllers, inverters etc will be largely dedicated to the vehicle model and not interchangeable. Electric motors would not be an issue as these can be rewound.
 

[Graham Butcher]

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

There wasn't any problem back in 2019 with Fully Charged Live, where many attendees drove early shorter range EV's. It isn't going to be any problem now with more rapid charging hubs everywhere and more LR EV's.

 

Tell me are those hundreds of cars all driving to/from exact same destination?

There is a vast difference in the number of attendees, 2019 Fully Charged Live at Silverstone had 10,000 people, the 2023 Royal International Air Tattoo at FAR Fairford had over 200,000.

[Paws4Thot]

25 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

There is a vast difference in the number of attendees, 2019 Fully Charged Live at Silverstone had 10,000 people, the 2023 Royal International Air Tattoo at FAR Fairford had over 200,000.

Bets that the EV bromantics either don't know or won't believe this?  

[Ootohere]

@Stonekeeper Audi do not do an A3 electric, but whatever.   Not ideal are they from whoever.   Not to worry though if you do not have one or have to wait while they get charged up as you do not have a BEV.    @Paws4Thot considering the Airshow turn out was discussed before and the lack of EV charging available but the park and ride was, why would anyone not believe the attendances?     You are like at school back in the day I think.   Sticking your oar in shouting fight.  Snotty wee thing.  

 

Edited 22 February by Rooted

[Winston_Woof]

2 minutes ago, Rooted said:

@Stonekeeper Audi do not do an A3 electric, but whatever.   Not ideal are they from whoever.   Not to worry though if you do not have one or have to wait while they get charged up as you do not have a BEV. 

Well they do do an A3 PHEV ;o)

https://www.audi.co.uk/uk/web/en/models/a3/a3-tfsi-e.html

[Ootohere]

20 miles EV range towing if lucky.  More like 10.  Electric hybrids are not Electric cars.  Octavia or Passat PHEV, or Mild hybrids.     Electric cars are BEV,s.    The nissan e-power is not an Electric car either with a petrol generator.  

Edited 22 February by Rooted

[Winston_Woof]

4 minutes ago, Rooted said:

20 miles EV range towing if lucky.  More like 10.  Electric hybrids are not Electric cars.  Octavia or Passat PHEV, or Mild hybrids.     Electric cars are BEV,s.    The nissan e-power is not an Electric car either with a petrol generator.  

They are a form of EV in the same way that ICE are divided by number of cylinders ;o)

Same goes for vehicles with REX like the e-power,I3 Ampera etc, they are still types of EVs


So are hydrogen fuelled vehicles

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

There is a vast difference in the number of attendees, 2019 Fully Charged Live at Silverstone had 10,000 people, the 2023 Royal International Air Tattoo at FAR Fairford had over 200,000.

I've no idea about FCL numbers. I agree it wouldn't be as much as airshow.

Although the RIAT official website says the numbers are across 3 days:  https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/event/royal-international-air-tattoo

Quote

The Royal International Air Tattoo (RIAT) regularly attracts hundreds of thousands of aviation enthusiasts across three days.

 

But got to remember are all 200,000 people travelling at the same time to/from same area? Are all 200,000 people your neighbours?

If half drives north and half drives south, that's half the amount of vehicle needs charging. Then there will be further diversification in recharging needs because people's journey distance would be different and people's cars will be different.

 

All this can't-do attitude and unreasonable requirements sounds exactly like someone without any real world experience and don't want to change.

[wyx087]

11 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

They are a form of EV in the same way that ICE are divided by number of cylinders ;o)

Same goes for vehicles with REX like the e-power,I3 Ampera etc, they are still types of EVs


So are hydrogen fuelled vehicles

Personally, I only class vehicles EV if they are solely driven by electric motors.

 

So ICE REx, hydrogen fuel cell and of course battery.

 

I think parallel EV are worst of both worlds. It's bad as EV due to poor range, it's bad as ICE due to added weight. Might as well go for 1999 Prius level hybrid so at least there's no pretending.

[Winston_Woof]

3 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Personally, I only class vehicles EV if they are solely driven by electric motors.

 

So ICE REx, hydrogen fuel cell and of course battery.

 

I think parallel EV are worst of both worlds. It's bad as EV due to poor range, it's bad as ICE due to added weight. Might as well go for 1999 Prius level hybrid so at least there's no pretending.

However many PHEVs can be driven in EV only mode for those shorter journeys but with an ICE for the odd longer trip.

Sure they are a compromise but................

REX suffer from the same compromise, ie having to lug an ICE around as well as batteries 

[Ootohere]

Electrified.   The Hydrogens do or will help manufacturers with the first registrations of zero emission vehicles.   They are included.   Electrified ICE are not.  Helps with the Annual fleet average C02 though.  Kidology.  

Edited 22 February by Rooted

[Stonekeeper]

41 minutes ago, Rooted said:

@Stonekeeper Audi do not do an A3 electric, but whatever.   Not ideal are they from whoever.   Not to worry though if you do not have one or have to wait while they get charged up as you do not have a BEV.    @Paws4Thot considering the Airshow turn out was discussed before and the lack of EV charging available but the park and ride was, why would anyone not believe the attendances?     You are like at school back in the day I think.   Sticking your oar in shouting fight.  Snotty wee thing.  

 

 

I thought it was am A3 as it passed the window of our Caravan but it must have been this, i didn't pay any attention to it after i heard the range.

 

 

[Ootohere]

@Winston_Wolf, sorry @Winston_WoofLong and short.  It is not a Battery Electric Vehicle when it needs liquid fuel to charge the battery via an engine in board.    Hydrogen powered engines are different things.   But then if the hydrogen is produced from coal, oil or gas fired power station,s electricity it is a nonesense.  Like BEV,s from dirty electric.  All a con. 

Edited 22 February by Rooted

[Stonekeeper]

41 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

Well they do do an A3 PHEV ;o)

https://www.audi.co.uk/uk/web/en/models/a3/a3-tfsi-e.html

 

It definitely wasn't a phev because i asked if it was fully electric first before we got into where he had driven it from. he did say it was over £70,000 though because i remember thinking how much diesel the extra cost would buy

[Stonekeeper]

2 minutes ago, Rooted said:

@Winston_Wolf, sorry @Winston_WoofLong and short.  It is not a Battery Electric Vehicle when it needs liquid fuel to charge the battery via an engine in board.    Hydrogen powered engines are different things.   But then if the hydrogen is produced from coal, oil or gas fired power station,s electricity it is a nonesense.  Like BEV,s from dirty electric.  All a con. 

 

 

Maybe someone could build a hydrogen powered car with a 30kw battery that you can also plug in?

 

 

 

We would need more than 11 hydrogen refilling stations though.

 

JCB are looking at a fleet of hydrogen delivery vehicles to fuel plant.

[wyx087]

May be a Q4 etron?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401175642280?sort=price-asc&twcs=true&advertising-location=at_cars&make=Audi&model=Q4 e-tron&postcode=al2 1bx&fromsra

 

Similarity is uncanny!

[Graham Butcher]

19 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

May be a Q4 etron?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401175642280?sort=price-asc&twcs=true&advertising-location=at_cars&make=Audi&model=Q4 e-tron&postcode=al2 1bx&fromsra

 

Similarity is uncanny!

Yeah, you could say the same with most of the BMW's today as well, they are ugly.

[Stonekeeper]

26 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

May be a Q4 etron?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401175642280?sort=price-asc&twcs=true&advertising-location=at_cars&make=Audi&model=Q4 e-tron&postcode=al2 1bx&fromsra

 

Similarity is uncanny!

 

They could have re-badged them to Q4 later

 

The car wow video is a 19 plate not sure if it was smaller?

 

the Q4 was not launched until June 21  for that 71 plaate

[Graham Butcher]

Nice try with the RIAT shuttle bus, apart from one small detail, there are only 2 bus routes, 1 from Swindon and the other from Cheltenham oh and the frequency is every 20 mins, so that's 3 an hour, they are double-deckers with a seating capacity of 60-80 depending on the model, so working with the max of 80, that's only a maximum of 480 people per hour, journey time of approx 30 mins on a good day and having spent much time sitting in the jams leading into Fairford, that can easily triple the time of those buses. Gates to the show ground open at 7:30am and flying starts at 10:00am and the first shuttle bus departs from both locations at 6:45am.

 

So if you're really into military aircraft and flying, you would want to get just as the gates open, so you have time to get into the queues for the ticket checks and body scanning and the baggage checks, including any photographic gear you may take. Those queues are really long and take some time to process and if its raining (usually does) you are getting soaked while standing in the queues at the 3 entrance booths. So how many people do you think the buses could safely carry to the show before the flying actually starts and also remember, that once through the checking and searching stages, you then have about 20 to 30-min walk to reach the crowd line and on that path, you have to walk through the static show aircraft and trade stands?

 

I venture that most of the people at the show will have driven there, and I'm a regular there so have first-hand experience.

Edited 22 February by Graham Butcher

[Winston_Woof]

1 hour ago, Rooted said:

@Winston_Wolf, sorry @Winston_WoofLong and short.  It is not a Battery Electric Vehicle when it needs liquid fuel to charge the battery via an engine in board.    Hydrogen powered engines are different things.   But then if the hydrogen is produced from coal, oil or gas fired power station,s electricity it is a nonesense.  Like BEV,s from dirty electric.  All a con. 

I totally agree , its is not a Battery Electric Vehicle  when it needs liquid fuel to charge the battery via an engine in board.

Its an Electric Vehicle with a range extending liquid fuelled engine however it is still an Electric Vehicle

[Winston_Woof]

41 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Nice try with the RIAT shuttle bus, apart from one small detail, there are only 2 bus routes, 1 from Swindon and the other from Cheltenham oh and the frequency is every 20 mins, so that's 3 an hour, they are double-deckers with a seating capacity of 60-80 depending on the model, so working with the max of 80, that's only a maximum of 480 people per hour, journey time of approx 30 mins on a good day and having spent much time sitting in the jams leading into Fairford, that can easily triple the time of those buses. Gates to the show ground open at 7:30am and flying starts at 10:00am and the first shuttle bus departs from both locations at 6:45am.

 

So if you're really into military aircraft and flying, you would want to get just as the gates open, so you have time to get into the queues for the ticket checks and body scanning and the baggage checks, including any photographic gear you may take. Those queues are really long and take some time to process and if its raining (usually does) you are getting soaked while standing in the queues at the 3 entrance booths. So how many people do you think the buses could safely carry to the show before the flying actually starts and also remember, that once through the checking and searching stages, you then have about 20 to 30-min walk to reach the crowd line and on that path, you have to walk through the static show aircraft and trade stands?

 

I venture that most of the people at the show will have driven there, and I'm a regular there so have first-hand experience.

can I just point out the irony of discussing "green" EVs  whilst being parked up watching hundreds of KG of avtur or avgas being burnt off ;o)

Edited 22 February by Winston_Woof

[Graham Butcher]

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I've no idea about FCL numbers. I agree it wouldn't be as much as airshow.

Although the RIAT official website says the numbers are across 3 days:  https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/event/royal-international-air-tattoo

2019 FCL show was held over 3 days, 7th, 8th and 9th June, with 10,000 visitors so was clearly not in the same league even as RIAT. Also the figures you quoted for RIAT were for 2022 and it gets bigger every year.

 

Fully Charged LIVE 2019 - Fully Charged Show

[wyx087]

36 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

can I just point out the irony of discussing "green" EVs  whilst being parked up watching hundreds of KG of avtur or avgas being burnt off ;o)

The Eastbourne beach airshow I went to last year says 99% of emissions came from people travelling to/from airshows. Given a large enough audience, the actual show emission will be insignificant.

 

However, as they say, every little helps.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Also the figures you quoted for RIAT were for 2022 and it gets bigger every year.

RIAT official website talked about 2023, click into the link. Although I didn't quote any numbers, only the wording from official website.

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Nice try with the RIAT shuttle bus, apart from one small detail, there are only 2 bus routes, 1 from Swindon and the other from Cheltenham oh and the frequency is every 20 mins, so that's 3 an hour, they are double-deckers with a seating capacity of 60-80 depending on the model, so working with the max of 80, that's only a maximum of 480 people per hour, journey time of approx 30 mins on a good day and having spent much time sitting in the jams leading into Fairford, that can easily triple the time of those buses. Gates to the show ground open at 7:30am and flying starts at 10:00am and the first shuttle bus departs from both locations at 6:45am.

 

So if you're really into military aircraft and flying, you would want to get just as the gates open, so you have time to get into the queues for the ticket checks and body scanning and the baggage checks, including any photographic gear you may take. Those queues are really long and take some time to process and if its raining (usually does) you are getting soaked while standing in the queues at the 3 entrance booths. So how many people do you think the buses could safely carry to the show before the flying actually starts and also remember, that once through the checking and searching stages, you then have about 20 to 30-min walk to reach the crowd line and on that path, you have to walk through the static show aircraft and trade stands?

 

I venture that most of the people at the show will have driven there, and I'm a regular there so have first-hand experience.

I could keep arguing with my own numbers and say it's entirely a non-issue because reasons. But I won't because I don't have first hand experience with that particular airshow.

 

I would hope the same could be applied to EV ownership experience in this thread and people would stop with "I'd only get EV if it has a billion miles range" or "there's no where to charge".

[Graham Butcher]

42 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

can I just point out the irony of discussing "green" EVs  whilst being parked up watching hundreds of KG of avtur or avgas being burnt off ;o)

Yes you can, and I'd like to state that I'm not discussing "green" EVs. I'm merely pointing out why, for me, with the current range of affordable EVs, they are not suitable for me personally, although others appear to have other agendas 

 

Equally however, can I just point out that also said the following :

 

"I totally agree , its is not a Battery Electric Vehicle  when it needs liquid fuel to charge the battery via an engine in board.

Its an Electric Vehicle with a range extending liquid fuelled engine however it is still an Electric Vehicle" 

 

Which for the folk here is a red flag to a bull simply because it still burns liquid fuel and therefore has tailpipe emissions, which they would like to banish to the history books.

[Stonekeeper]

6 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes you can, and I'd like to state that I'm not discussing "green" EVs. I'm merely pointing out why, for me, with the current range of affordable EVs, they are not suitable for me personally, although others appear to have other agendas 

 

 

 

 

My situation is the opposite The EVS that are suitable are un-affordable