the truth about electric cars

[Graham Butcher]

@Rooted United we stand, divided we fall and people forget that just how much we rely on each other to keep us all going.

[Winston_Woof]

18 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Strange but that does seem to be the same message that Essex County Council are putting out for the future transport plans for my city. They want more of us to walk or use cycles and those cannot do so to use public transport.

seeing the profile info reminds me.

The boy from Chelmsford did good in Jeddah yesterday with his hybrid Ferrari  

[Stonekeeper]

 

[lol-lol]

5 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

Trust the Tory fan boy to do all he can to support the Cons even in the face of adversity.

 

[EnterName]

41 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Thanks for that, from the lack of response I was beginning to think maybe I had missed a massive elephant in the room and nobody was telling me.

An awful lot of people are quite sensitive to criticism, so can be hesitant to respond to what they think might be a contentious issue.

Doesn't mean they aren't listening.

Do not feel bad towards the people who ignore you or disagree with you, your real enemies are the people who try and silence you.

[EnterName]

45 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Energy and food security. 

There's no such thing in this day and age.

[wyx087]

2 hours ago, Winston_Woof said:

 would you refer to a petrol station as "public refuelling" ??

probably not ;o)

Whilst it is undoubtedly true that the  cost per unit may be higher than on your home tariff at charging points away from home whats the difference ? Aren't these (most of the time) privately owned chargers selling a service/product at a profit?

I would prefer to have a well in my garden and do private refuelling. Alas, I can only refuel via public infrastructure with loads of profit for the middleman and on-going embedded carbon in fuel distribution.

 

2 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/electriccars/article-12671771/True-false-EVs-cheaper-service-maintain-repair.html

Why would ID3 have such expensive tyres?

They use standard 215/55R18 tyres. Michelin CC2 £142 per corner fitted.

 

  

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Destination chargers are not going to be available to millions of people, fact.

 

These service stations are not there just to service long distance driving, for many people they are also their local service station, that is certainly true for those at South Mimms as they are accessible to anybody, not just those on the A1M or the M25. The only ones that you could safely say are primarily for long distance drivers are those at service areas located on Motorways with no local access to the service area.

Destination charging, the clue is in the name. There must be more destination than home the car spends significant amount of time parked, fact. Going to supermarket for 1 hour? graze on its charger. Going to the gym? graze on there. Going to workplace? That's 7+ hours to fully charge.

 

  

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh yes of course, why didn't I think of that? Do you think that perhaps batteries would not available for it, least of all as 2nd hand batteries as per the Leaf battery you provided a link to from Ebay. Electric motors could be rewound at a repair shop, but batteries would be extremely hard to repair/fabricate as batteries are designed to fit each car, its not like you can walk into a shop and purchase a pack 10 AA batteries, pop them into it and be good to go is it? 

 

You could certainly take that 55 year old car to any pump at any service station and fill its tank up, think about it.

55 years old car is compatible with E10? https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e10-petrol-explained

55 years old car is compatible with unleaded? https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/throwback-thursday-1989-switchover-unleaded-petrol

"“There are, however, engines which simply cannot run on unleaded fuel. These are mostly older designs, with inlet and exhaust valves directed on a cast-iron cylinder head – and the lead is needed to lubricate the valves and valve-seats. Without it, they would deteriorate through corrosion and burning. "

 

Battery would, in fact, be plug and play. There's enough will, people are amazing and have made it happen. This is one of the open source project making Leaf battery upgrade as simple as plugging stuff together.

https://github.com/dalathegreat/Nissan-LEAF-Battery-Upgrade

 

 

[Stonekeeper]

 

[Stonekeeper]

 

[wyx087]

 

Leaded petrol. Nasty stuff. But this is an amazing documentary explaining how leaded petrol was allowed to flourish with help from lobbying.

 

Fossil fuel has always had so much lobbying power, it's unreal. The hybrid cars could have arrived 15 years earlier had it not been for the diesel lobbist groups. Full electric cars could have arrived 5 years earlier if all manufacturers got behind Tesla and Nissan Leaf back in 2011.

[Stonekeeper]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

Trust the Tory fan boy to do all he can to support the Cons even in the face of adversity.

 

 

He knows that battery power will not sustain the industry he builds plant for so has successfully found an alternative,

 

The video regarding his research and conclusion is very informative.

 

He backs battery for mini diggers etc that can complete a work day and be recharged in time for next use but excavators and the like would be too heavy and be in down time too long if battery reliant.

Edited 10 March by Stonekeeper

[Graham Butcher]

48 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

Destination charging, the clue is in the name. There must be more destination than home the car spends significant amount of time parked, fact. Going to supermarket for 1 hour? graze on its charger. Going to the gym? graze on there. Going to workplace? That's 7+ hours to fully charge.

Destination charging sounds like a really wonderful thing, doesn't it. Until that is that you actually stop and think about it properly and just gloss over it, I said it before, there are millions and millions of people for whom destination chargers while at work are not available. Many of those don't even have a dedicated parking place. Take most places of work, most have more staff than they have parking spaces so in those places' seniority of positions in the company will, if they are lucky, get a destination charger if space permits the installation of them. Others who work in multi-storey offices, also miss out on the facility, others may not even have space for the owners cars let alone staff cars, so there is no point in banging about destination chargers being the answer.

 

They can form part of the answer in some cases just the same as being able to charge at home is a possible solution for those lucky enough to be able to do that, but many people simply have no access to either option.

[Graham Butcher]

3 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

He knows that battery power will not sustain the industry he builds plant for so has successfully found an alternative,

 

The video regarding his research and conclusion is very informative.

 

He backs battery for mini diggers etc that can complete a work day and be recharged in time for next use but excavators and the like would be too heavy and be in down time too long if battery reliant.

Also remember that much of the really large heavy plant that JCB and others build very will often be spending much of their time miles away from any other structures or any sources of large enough power to charge their batteries overnight, such as motorway construction, other sites like HS2 etc they may also be working 24-hour shifts, so battery is not the ideal power source in such situations, we need diversity and the sooner people wake up to this the sooner can stop point scoring and move on.

[Stonekeeper]

6 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Destination charging sounds like a really wonderful thing, doesn't it. Until that is that you actually stop and think about it properly and just gloss over it, I said it before, there are millions and millions of people for whom destination chargers while at work are not available. Many of those don't even have a dedicated parking place. Take most places of work, most have more staff than they have parking spaces so in those places' seniority of positions in the company will, if they are lucky, get a destination charger if space permits the installation of them. Others who work in multi-storey offices, also miss out on the facility, others may not even have space for the owners cars let alone staff cars, so there is no point in banging about destination chargers being the answer.

 

They can form part of the answer in some cases just the same as being able to charge at home is a possible solution for those lucky enough to be able to do that, but many people simply have no access to either option.

 

 

Even those who are thinking how easy it is for them to charge at home will start having reservations when they have teenage kids with an ev each who all want to be charged by morning.

 

I doubt doing more than two on 7kw chargers overnight will be even possible on a domestic supply when gas is banned from new builds for heating.

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

 

Leaded petrol. Nasty stuff. But this is an amazing documentary explaining how leaded petrol was allowed to flourish with help from lobbying.

 

Fossil fuel has always had so much lobbying power, it's unreal. The hybrid cars could have arrived 15 years earlier had it not been for the diesel lobbist groups. Full electric cars could have arrived 5 years earlier if all manufacturers got behind Tesla and Nissan Leaf back in 2011.

While there is some truth in this, at the time nobody and I mean nobody knew about what was to be discovered many years later that is now coming to the fore, Which is why I think that we're heading down a dangerous slippery slope by acting with speed that we are in the pursuit of just the single solution of electric traction. One day we might just be discover major flaws and dangers that might have been spotted cured by a slower approach.

 

Edit Lead was also added into paint and many other things and even incorporated into millions and millions of buildings as dampproof courses and sealing for porch roofs etc so it is wrong to pin the blame and point fingers solely at petrol.

Edited 10 March by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

7 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

Even those who are thinking how easy it is for them to charge at home will start having reservations when they have teenage kids with an ev each who all want to be charged by morning.

 

I doubt doing more than two on 7kw chargers overnight will be even possible on a domestic supply when gas is banned from new builds for heating.

That is a very good point and also the gas being banned. I had already discovered that in the case of air quality in London is often at its worst in areas of high density housing estates in the Southern areas. even down to in some areas where the official air monitoring stations had been located next door to the exhaust vents from commercial kitchens in fast food outlets etc whereas areas of high volumes of slow moving traffic like the North Circular road had far better readings for air quality. I do think that transport has been singled out as a scapegoat and this will hopefully become increasingly evident when we have higher numbers of BEVs but discover that air quality has not improved. 

[Stonekeeper]

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

That is a very good point and also the gas being banned. I had already discovered that in the case of air quality in London is often at its worst in areas of high density housing estates in the Southern areas. even down to in some areas where the official air monitoring stations had been located next door to the exhaust vents from commercial kitchens in fast food outlets etc whereas areas of high volumes of slow moving traffic like the North Circular road had far better readings for air quality. I do think that transport has been singled out as a scapegoat and this will hopefully become increasingly evident when we have higher numbers of BEVs but discover that air quality has not improved. 

 

Also the re-emergence of burning wood to heat the houses because logs are renewable😂

[Graham Butcher]

25 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Also the re-emergence of burning wood to heat the houses because logs are renewable😂

But that would create smoke and soot and then we would get the re-emergence of smog and god that was deadly enough in its own right. 

[Graham Butcher]

3 hours ago, EnterName said:

This triggered a train of thought. There's an assumption that "fossil fuels" are indeed made from dinosaur fossils, and as the dinosaurs are all gone, use of fossil fuels is causing a finite resource to be depleted, lost forever.

I'm not sure this is correct.

 

But beyond that, there are quite a few ways of making sustainable "fossil" fuels, that don't depend of "fossils". If we put some effort into it, I'm confident we could find more ways, and make the process more efficient.

Rolls-Royce, for one, has renewable diesel, and is quite invested into environmentally-friendly sustainable fuels.

https://www.hydrocarbonengineering.com/clean-fuels/28102022/neste-and-rolls-royce-to-accelerate-the-shift-from-fossil-to-renewable-fuels/

 

I also notice things have gone oddly quiet on bio-diesel lately, though I can't imagine why. I remember when "Power your car from cooking oil!" videos were popular.

Being able to use waste cooking oil as fuel was a great idea. There's not enough of it to be used to power all diesel vehicles, but I reckon about 20% of current diesel vehicles used could be run on it.

Likewise growing crops that can be used as diesel fuel doesn't seem such a silly idea to me, either, though there are doubtless downsides to it, certainly for heavy commercial vehicles, bio-diesel seems to make more sense than EVs.

 

Then again, for the endless stop/start of Amazon delivery vehicles in urban areas, EVs seem to be perfect.

 

It's frustrating that a group of people seem to have got together and determined that EVs are the only way to go, when there are environmentally sustainable alternatives which for some applications, make way more sense.

Those alternatives now getting less development and research than they merit, especially with the infrastructure for distributing them already in place.

It just seems somewhat perverse to me, especially as the public would be reasonably happy to use environmentally-friendly fuels in their existing vehicles.

They did it with unleaded petrol, low-sulphur diesel, adding ethanol to petrol, LPG etc.

 

But back to the original thought, I'll pose a question: When do you think "fossil fuels" stopped forming naturally?

It turns out that McDonalds create their own bio diesel from their used cooking oils.

 

Do McDonald's use recycled cooking oil to fuel your own delivery vehicles? (mcdonalds.com)

[Stonekeeper]

4 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

But that would create smoke and soot and then we would get the re-emergence of smog and god that was deadly enough in its own right. 

 

Environmentally friendly burning 😂 goes down well with the Tesla owners?

 

https://www.burninginspirations.co.uk/why-are-wood-burners-such-a-popular-choice

 

 

[Graham Butcher]

27 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

Environmentally friendly burning 😂 goes down well with the Tesla owners?

 

https://www.burninginspirations.co.uk/why-are-wood-burners-such-a-popular-choice

 

 

Why do I get the feeling that your baiting Tesla owners? 

Edited 10 March by Graham Butcher

[J.R.]

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I would prefer to have a well in my garden and do private refuelling

 

I have one but to date have only refuelled my enemies cars from it!

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

I have one but to date have only refuelled my enemies cars from it!

That must mean water engines don't work then.

[wyx087]

5 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

Even those who are thinking how easy it is for them to charge at home will start having reservations when they have teenage kids with an ev each who all want to be charged by morning.

 

I doubt doing more than two on 7kw chargers overnight will be even possible on a domestic supply when gas is banned from new builds for heating.

Remember, only when you need to drive high mileage daily, you need to use the charge point overnight.

For example, if all your teenagers drives 200 miles daily, then yes, you'd need to have a spare 7 kW charger for each.

 

Otherwise, it's not difficult to recharge 3 or even 4 long range EV's with a single 7 kW charge point. I've managed perfectly fine with my neighbour's new GV60, my MY LR and 1 60 miles Leaf, charged on a single 5 years old charge point for a handful of months.

 

5 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

While there is some truth in this, at the time nobody and I mean nobody knew about what was to be discovered many years later that is now coming to the fore, Which is why I think that we're heading down a dangerous slippery slope by acting with speed that we are in the pursuit of just the single solution of electric traction. One day we might just be discover major flaws and dangers that might have been spotted cured by a slower approach.

On the contrary. Now that we know the problem associated with continued usage of fossil fuel, we must move swiftly to electrify. Just as the world moved swiftly to get rid of lead in fuel.

 

The beauty with electrification is that all the biggest emission during the lifecycle can be controlled and improved centrally: manufacturing, power sources, re-purposing, recycling. As the grid get greener, through more money flowing towards green energy, so will all EV's charging on it.

 

 

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

On the contrary. Now that we know the problem associated with continued usage of fossil fuel, we must move swiftly to electrify. Just as the world moved swiftly to get rid of lead in fuel.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think water is the most abundant potential source of both energy and life sustaining substance in the planet. Think about it for a moment, we are supposed to have melting ice caps and rising water levels and the experts predict that mush of the land as we currently know it, will be underwater if we don't slow down global warming. We know that we can split water to release those gases, we just need to find a quick, safe way of doing that efficiently and by recycling the water we will be using it wisely, and we also know that the end result of hydrogen as a fuel is yet even more water so no harmful emissions. So if we can find a way of splitting water, we stand to reverse or at least arrest global warming, stop the ice caps melting further and also have an abundance of clean power that is self replenishing.

 

If we can find a way of doing that in the car as we use the car, then that would be the ideal solution, we can use the water repeatedly without feeling guilty about it, it is also an inert material to safely transport around the world and relatively easy to do, via existing pipelines, no need for large fleets of road tankers carrying volatile hydrogen, no need for massive storage locations of it either.

 

So whether it be hydrogen, or hydrogen fuel cells or even the water engine, they all ultimately rely on hydrogen, so those re the paths that I think we should be really looking towards for the future of transport.

 

What could be greener, zero waste to dispose off and an everlasting power source.

Edited 10 March by Graham Butcher