the truth about electric cars

[Graham Butcher]

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Now  you are refusing to give evidence you've previously referred. Me thinks everything you say is unreliable and have a hidden agenda. At least Geoff's motive is clear: views.

 

If you think politics has not affected the way news gets reported, then where have you been for the last 4 to 5 years?

 

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Why else would you keep harping on about the 2014 Range Rover diesel fire at Luton airport and coming up with multiple justifications for Li-on battery fire?

 

Head in sand time again then, or you incapable of reading and understanding the written word? I'm not justifying a Li-on fire at all, I'm looking at all possibilities, including CNG or LPG or just a simple Nitrous Oxide boost kit gone wrong. You really are demonstrating a lack of how diesel burns, just how difficult it is to set it on fire with a naked flame, a spark won't do it. Google it and learn something.

 

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

You really think people will convert a 2014 range rover to electric, when there's much better and cheaper IPace out there?

Yes I do and even older cars, you have posted links before to a YouTube channel called Electric Classic Cars, do ever actually watch any of them?

Watch this one,  (411) Classic car electric conversion shop tour - YouTube and you will see many normal cars being converted to electric, even though there are many newer and better cars that already are electric. I can also give you many other links if you require more proof. I like cars of all types, petrol, diesel, CNG, LPG and electric, it's one of my hobbies and I have always been into cars even before I left school, so please don't insult my intelligence. 

 

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

You looked at evidence and overnight, you became an expert in how stuff burns? Flames were being subjected to a pressure source..... hum, I wonder if diesel cars have a high pressure fuel line......

 

So it's true, then you can't read. I'm a trained fireman of internal fire dept for English Electric Valve Company (now called Teledyne E2V) and Marconi, are you a trained fireman?

 

And yes, diesel engines do have a high pressure fuel line, but only from the injector pump to the injectors and that pipe is made from thick walled steel and is therefore unlikely to break or leak. 

 

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Your bias is so blind, you would come up with ANY theory as long as it is against EV's. The location of hybrid battery are under the floor. NOT in engine bay:

https://www.landrover.com/landrovermagazine/hybrid-evoque-so-what-mhev

Allow me to reiterate I like cars of all types, petrol, diesel, CNG, LPG and electric, so your theory about me being biased is a load of BS. I admit that I don't like the fact that people are/were

not being allowed a free choice of power plant, from 2035. I also don't like the fact that it will create a 2 tier system, i.e, those can home charge and those that cannot, so the two will have vastly different running costs, and I admit that I'm not convinced that overall, taking everything into account that are the savour of the planet. So once again you have demonstrated that you have not read or understood what I have been saying, instead you automatically take anything I say as being totally anti EV, when I'm clearly not.

 

Yes the location of the small hybrid battery is under the floor, the front passenger floor on the left towards the engine bay. Do yourself a favour and revisit the link you posted from "X" and watch it again on a full sized screen and there is smoke coming from beneath the bonnet and also from the cars interior which suggests that pressure was building up inside the car forcing smoke out and also a sign that the windows were about to blow out.

 

Also, this link that you supplied https://www.landrover.com/landrovermagazine/hybrid-evoque-so-what-mhev actually refers to the new MEHEV introduced in 2021, and according to the earlier "X" link you also supplied, the registration quoted was E10EFL which happens to a 2014 registered car so clearly not a 2021 MEHEV is it? Land Rover did make a Hybrid Range Rover in 2013, therefore it could in fact be a hybrid after all. 

 

I seem to recall that you have consistently denied that any EV's played a part in the fire on board the Freemantle Highway, even though photographic evidence shows that they were involved in the fire. Even to the point that when a YT channel announced after the ship reached port, that no EVs were in the fire. So when you posted on the 18th August this link https://cleantechnica.com/2023/08/17/a-ship-carrying-electric-cars-is-on-fire-we-must-run-and-tell-the-king/ and then this statement "So the uncontrollable fire on the ship had nothing to do with EV's.", nailing your colours to the mast of EVs were not part of the fire. How do you account for this (413) Fremantle Hwy: Mercedes EV battery burns ONE MONTH later | Auto Expert John Cadogan - YouTube there also other videos showing similar. I said at the time that we would have to wait for the full report to be released to learn what actually did cause the fire. I also said then that I never stated EV's started the fire, but some did get burned in the fire and made it harder to put out, but you, of course, chose to ignore that as well.

 

And for the avoidance of doubt about the type of fire that started the Luton fire, I'm not claiming it was this or that, just looking at possibilities that might account for the appearance of the fire coming from the Range Rover and like it not it is a fact that Range Rover did make a Diesel Hybrid, and they have had hybrids since 2013 and if that engine was running and witnesses heard it running and maybe that is why the Fireman said it was a diesel, but it does not mean it was a pure diesel. Neither does it rule it that it might have been a LPG either, because they can be fitted with a switch on the dashboard to switch from diesel to LPG and back again, equally it could have been converted to electric, we really do not know, none of us were at the time it all kicked off.

 

Edited 15 October, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

A small point regarding diesels and LPG.   The diesels were not converted like petrols to run on petrol or LPG or like i had just LPG and no need to start on petrol.

The LPG was used at about 25% with the diesel to boost the power. 

[Graham Butcher]

2 hours ago, toot said:

A small point regarding diesels and LPG.   The diesels were not converted like petrols to run on petrol or LPG or like i had just LPG and no need to start on petrol.

The LPG was used at about 25% with the diesel to boost the power. 

Correct, also LPG has less energy than diesel. I think you have to warm the engine up as well before introducing the LPG?  It is a popular choice with farmers, and I believe that Jeremy Clarkson and also Harry Metcalfe both have or have had Range Rovers running on LPG.

[lol-lol]

16 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Correct, also LPG has less energy than diesel. I think you have to warm the engine up as well before introducing the LPG?  It is a popular choice with farmers, and I believe that Jeremy Clarkson and also Harry Metcalfe both have or have had Range Rovers running on LPG.

 

And all internal combustion engines have an efficiency less than have of electric battery/motors !!

Edited 15 October, 2023 by lol-lol

[Graham Butcher]

3 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

And all internal combustion engines have an efficiency less than have of electric battery/motors !!

Yes that is also true. 😉

[Ootohere]

As to LPG.   110 octane in the UK.

Hence why used even in V8,s for racing like Morgans & there are countries where the engine capacity can not be modified so Classic 3.5 V8 engines run on LPG.

http://v8engines.com

 build such engines. 

[wyx087]

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

You really are demonstrating a lack of how diesel burns, just how difficult it is to set it on fire with a naked flame, a spark won't do it. Google it and learn something.

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

And yes, diesel engines do have a high pressure fuel line, but only from the injector pump to the injectors and that pipe is made from thick walled steel and is therefore unlikely to break or leak. 

Diesel doesn't burn that way to your knowledge when not under pressure, it must mean it isn't a pure diesel vehicle, because all cars are mode equal. I think your head is in the sand because you are in denial.

 

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes the location of the small hybrid battery is under the floor, the front passenger floor on the left towards the engine bay. Do yourself a favour and revisit the link you posted from "X" and watch it again on a full sized screen and there is smoke coming from beneath the bonnet and also from the cars interior which suggests that pressure was building up inside the car forcing smoke out and also a sign that the windows were about to blow out.

 

Also, this link that you supplied https://www.landrover.com/landrovermagazine/hybrid-evoque-so-what-mhev actually refers to the new MEHEV introduced in 2021, and according to the earlier "X" link you also supplied, the registration quoted was E10EFL which happens to a 2014 registered car so clearly not a 2021 MEHEV is it? Land Rover did make a Hybrid Range Rover in 2013, therefore it could in fact be a hybrid after all. 

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because JLR made a different model of MHEV back in 2013. (full size Land Rover, size is vastly different to what's in the videos)

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because car interior has pressure building up, despite you previously said EV battery fires vent sideways.

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery under the seats on fire because nothing else in the cabin is flammable.

 

Well done, you've been very logical in your extremely biased analysis.

 

8 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I seem to recall that you have consistently denied that any EV's played a part in the fire on board the Freemantle Highway, even though photographic evidence shows that they were involved in the fire. Even to the point that when a YT channel announced after the ship reached port, that no EVs were in the fire. So when you posted on the 18th August this link https://cleantechnica.com/2023/08/17/a-ship-carrying-electric-cars-is-on-fire-we-must-run-and-tell-the-king/ and then this statement "So the uncontrollable fire on the ship had nothing to do with EV's.", nailing your colours to the mast of EVs were not part of the fire. How do you account for this (413) Fremantle Hwy: Mercedes EV battery burns ONE MONTH later | Auto Expert John Cadogan - YouTube there also other videos showing similar. I said at the time that we would have to wait for the full report to be released to learn what actually did cause the fire. I also said then that I never stated EV's started the fire, but some did get burned in the fire and made it harder to put out, but you, of course, chose to ignore that as well.

Referencing social media (youtube) again, for argument that supports your view. Also you are now an expert in car shapes. Is that where your "main stream media cannot be trusted" view come from?

[Graham Butcher]

@wyx087 You really love to put your own spin on whatever I say, you are beyond help, so once again, show me I said it must be an EV fire. All I said is that it looks like other EV fires. The operative word in play is "Looks". 

 

So in your mind then if someone said to you that you looked like David Beckham, that must mean that you ARE David Beckham 🤣🤣🤣. Get a grip will you? 

[wyx087]

41 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087 You really love to put your own spin on whatever I say, you are beyond help, so once again, show me I said it must be an EV fire. All I said is that it looks like other EV fires. The operative word in play is "Looks".

58 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because JLR made a different model of MHEV back in 2013. (full size Land Rover, size is vastly different to what's in the videos)

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because car interior has pressure building up, despite you previously said EV battery fires vent sideways.

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery under the seats on fire because nothing else in the cabin is flammable.

Wait, so pointing out the biased logic you used is putting my spin on stuff you say?

I'm sorry, I didn't realise you are so sensitive to being reasonable. 🤪

 

41 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

show me I said it must be an EV fire

You are going around in circles trying to find any evidence to justify your suspicion that it is Li-on battery fire.

 

Regardless if your evidence is unrelatable (2013 Land Rover MHEV, no smaller car had been electrified in 2014), baseless (could be converted) or just plain silly  (Casting EV battery fire doubt and then backtracking and add other possible reasons) 

 

You need to get a grip, it's diesel car self-combusted. You don't like it because it doesn't conform to those extremely biased youtube "personalities" to which you are subscribed.

 

Edited 15 October, 2023 by wyx087

[wyx087]

Speaking of problem with diesel vehicles:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2023/10/14/diesel-spillage-from-lorry-causing-long-delays-on-m6-northbound/

 

I hope electric HGV's won't be spilling their electricity all over the motorway 

[lol-lol]

8 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Speaking of problem with diesel vehicles:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2023/10/14/diesel-spillage-from-lorry-causing-long-delays-on-m6-northbound/

I hope electric HGV's won't be spilling their electricity all over the motorway 

 

The feedback of the TESLA semi, as they call it in the US, seeming to prove the ICE Truck experts yet again stuck in the past and as with cars it is increasingly looking like it will cost many truck manufacturers their business being so slow to adopt electrification. 

 

There are none so blind than those that can see.  

 

Tesla now recruiting for energy roll out in the UK.  The only worry is that TESLA will be running up against the competition authorities which is sa shame when one gets penalised for being so good and allows mediocrity to continue.   I hope Skoda, Octopus and Gridserve etc do manage to survive but against the might of TESLA is it difficult to see how.   

 

Sounds like Skoda is shrinking rapidly in China, where half the profits come from as failing to compete against TELSA, SIAC etc.    EU to cry foul and saying state owned company infringing EU Anti-Dumping rules not too far away it may be ?

 

[J.R.]

10 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I'm looking at all possibilities, including CNG or LPG or just a simple Nitrous Oxide boost kit gone wrong.

 

For someone who sermonises that all others have closed minds I am surprised that you did not include WMD in your possibilities!

 

"A simple nitrous oxide kit........................."

 

Good point there must be hundreds of those amongst the parked cars, laughing gas is not something anyone reading this topic will need.

[Paws4Thot]

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087 You really love to put your own spin on whatever I say, you are beyond help, so once again, show me I said it must be an EV fire. All I said is that it looks like other EV fires. The operative word in play is "Looks". 

 

So in your mind then if someone said to you that you looked like David Beckham, that must mean that you ARE David Beckham 🤣🤣🤣. Get a grip will you? 

You are arguing with one of the 10 members I have blocked, just saying...

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Speaking of problem with diesel vehicles:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2023/10/14/diesel-spillage-from-lorry-causing-long-delays-on-m6-northbound/

 

I hope electric HGV's won't be spilling their electricity all over the motorway 

If that was petrol on the M6 motorway, the open lane would be closed as a single spark would ignite the petrol, just saying the obvious. That fast lane is still open because there is zero chance of the diesel catching fire. It is however extremely slippery.

[Graham Butcher]

36 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

For someone who sermonises that all others have closed minds I am surprised that you did not include WMD in your possibilities!

 

"A simple nitrous oxide kit........................."

 

Good point there must be hundreds of those amongst the parked cars, laughing gas is not something anyone reading this topic will need.

Oh so clever, have you never heard of nitrous oxide (laughing gas) being used to boost an engines' performance then. Adding NoS nitrous oxide to boost power gains. (carref.com), Big Power With Nitrous—300-500hp at the touch of a button (dieselworldmag.com), 

 

In case you or anyone else is going to claim that it is illegal to use it on road going cars, then, you might want to read this from the experts before making such a claim? Are Wizards of NOS Nitrous Oxide Systems legal on road cars? (noswizard.com) Adrian Flux, one of the Briskoda recommended insurance companies, is also referenced in that link as one of the insurance companies helping with getting laughing gas injection on road cars legalised.

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because JLR made a different model of MHEV back in 2013. (full size Land Rover, size is vastly different to what's in the videos)

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because car interior has pressure building up, despite you previously said EV battery fires vent sideways.

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery under the seats on fire because nothing else in the cabin is flammable.

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because JLR made a different model of MHEV back in 2013. (full size Land Rover, size is vastly different to what's in the videos). So now you're an expert on car recognition from a small poor definition phone footage, shot from a distance and in a smoky atmosphere. And once again, is not what I was saying either.

 

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because car interior has pressure building up, despite you previously said EV battery fires vent sideways. Yes EV battery fires do vent sideways and in the front on video, this can be seen happening and if the car interior is already on fire then pressure in side the car would be building up, news flash hot air expands. I have seen plenty of ICE cars where the windows blow out, it happens in all fires, even house fires, get real. So once again you made the false connection that because there is smoke inside the car, that I'm claiming it is an EV?

 

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery under the seats on fire because nothing else in the cabin is flammable. Again, this is your interpretation, not mine, I refer you to the statement above. 

[lol-lol]

5 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh so clever, have you never heard of nitrous oxide (laughing gas) being used to boost an engines' performance then. Adding NoS nitrous oxide to boost power gains. (carref.com), Big Power With Nitrous—300-500hp at the touch of a button (dieselworldmag.com), 

 

In case you or anyone else is going to claim that it is illegal to use it on road going cars, then, you might want to read this from the experts before making such a claim? Are Wizards of NOS Nitrous Oxide Systems legal on road cars? (noswizard.com) Adrian Flux, one of the Briskoda recommended insurance companies, is also referenced in that link as one of the insurance companies helping with getting laughing gas injection on road cars legalised.

 

NOX has to have extra fuel injected at the same time as just NOX will only lean out the engine and blow it up.

[Graham Butcher]

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Diesel doesn't burn that way to your knowledge when not under pressure, it must mean it isn't a pure diesel vehicle, because all cars are mode equal. I think your head is in the sand because you are in denial.

🙄 Diesel only burns when it is in the engine cylinder under the massive compression that diesel engines have to have, in order to heat the air up to such a high temperature so that when the injector spays the fuel into the hot air, it combusts. If you have an engine misfire on a diesel engine, then the way mechanics detect which cylinder is misfiring, is to loosen the injector fuel pipe at each injector in turn and listen to see if the engine note changes. If it does change, then that cylinder is deemed OK and move onto the next one until there is one where the note does not change, that is the cylinder with the problem. Now you may not realise but when you loosen the injector pipe that a lot of diesel is sprayed under high pressure around the outside of the engine, but it doesn't catch fire. 😝

Edited 15 October, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

12 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

NOX has to have extra fuel injected at the same time as just NOX will only lean out the engine and blow it up.

Correct, you cannot use just NOX as nox generates extra oxygen while it is being burned, its a sort of supercharger.

[J.R.]

18 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh so clever, have you never heard of nitrous oxide (laughing gas) being used to boost an engines' performance then.

 

Of course I have, I have worked with it several times. Why ask a dumb question instead of addressing my sarcastic assertion that hundreds of the vehicles in the car park would (not) have been so equipped?

 

22 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

In case you or anyone else is going to claim that it is illegal to use it on road going cars, then, you might want to read this from the experts before making such a claim?

 

You just get funnier and funnier with your projection 😀

 

Am I allowed to not read it and not make the claim which I was never going to make anyway?

[J.R.]

7 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Diesel only burns when it is in the engine cylinder under the massive compression that diesel engines have to have,

 

Rubbish, diesel burns at atmospheric temperature when vaporized and exposed to an ignition source, at which point the fire is self sustaining.

 

It was used for heating and lighting long before the Diesel engine was invented and continues to this day.

[Graham Butcher]

2 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Of course I have, I have worked with it several times. Why ask a dumb question instead of addressing my sarcastic assertion that hundreds of the vehicles in the car park would (not) have been so equipped?

 

 

You just get funnier and funnier with your projection 😀

 

Am I allowed to not read it and not make the claim which I was never going to make anyway?

So sorry, I misunderstood what you were trying to convey. Yes I agree it is not something that you come across very often, but that equally does not mean that is not even remotely possible, does it?

[Graham Butcher]

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

 

Rubbish, diesel burns at atmospheric temperature when vaporized and exposed to an ignition source, at which point the fire is self sustaining.

 

It was used for heating and lighting long before the Diesel engine was invented and continues to this day.

Doubt what I'm saying, check it out with diesel fitters and see how they respond. I have seen it done many times, and never once has a diesel engine caught fire while checking for a misfire.

[Ootohere]

More sensibly priced EV,s with more range has been a 'simply clever' move.     It is VW Group that seems to be dragging it,s heals.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-67115975

 

[lol-lol]

19 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Doubt what I'm saying, check it out with diesel fitters and see how they respond. I have seen it done many times, and never once has a diesel engine caught fire while checking for a misfire.

 

There is diesel and DIESEL. 

Diesel is sometimes called heavy oil.

Diesel we used for our generator sets was very different to main engine diesel which we burnt residual oil, diesel. 

Road diesel has a flash point of as low as 52C, which is not really hot just quite warm.