the truth about electric cars

[lol-lol]

36 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Correct, you cannot use just NOX as nox generates extra oxygen while it is being burned, its a sort of supercharger.

 

And bloody difficult to get near to stociometric ratio.

 

[Warrior193]

24 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

There is diesel and DIESEL. 

Diesel is sometimes called heavy oil.

Diesel we used for our generator sets was very different to main engine diesel which we burnt residual oil, diesel. 

Road diesel has a flash point of as low as 52C, which is not really hot just quite warm.

 

Flash point of Diesel can be even lower if contaminated with other fuels - I recall seeing tests where flash point was found to be down to near room temperatures!

[Graham Butcher]

54 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Rubbish, diesel burns at atmospheric temperature when vaporized and exposed to an ignition source, at which point the fire is self sustaining.

 

It was used for heating and lighting long before the Diesel engine was invented and continues to this day.

Yes, well aware of the diesel heaters, some Superb's I think can be specified in certain countries with them, but the diesel needs to be vaporised and leaking diesel from a fuel tank for instance is not, and chucking a lit match into it, the match is more than likely going to be snuffed out by the diesel.

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

There is diesel and DIESEL. 

Diesel is sometimes called heavy oil.

Diesel we used for our generator sets was very different to main engine diesel which we burnt residual oil, diesel. 

Road diesel has a flash point of as low as 52C, which is not really hot just quite warm.

 

Well, the precise flash point can be anywhere between approx 60C to 90C depending on the grade, 52C might be for a specific type of road diesel, like diesel plus?

 

The flashpoint for petrol is minus 43C, so many magnitudes worse.

Edited 15 October, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

Before I kick this into touch, allow me to demonstrate how the DVLA information for the registration number linked to this car at the centre of Luton fire can be misleading everyone into believing it to be a pure diesel and thus not questioning it any further. If the car in the photos and videos for arguments’ sake, was a Tesla then nobody would be questioning it being an electric car that caused the fire, because the car is easily identified, maybe not enough to identify the model, but the make would be clear, fair enough?

 

Well what about this RR then, Auto Trader says its a RR diesel MHEV but DVLA say its a just a diesel, so they clearly list by what they consider to be the vehicles main motive power source.

 

In the case of the Tesla, Auto Trader state an its EV (silly as we all know its an EV) and this time DVLA show it as an electric vehicle.

 

Does this now settle things down again, as it clearly shows there is some element of doubt as to the actual cause of the fire? If those two videos taken on mobile phones had not been taken and shared, showing the fire's actually behaviour, then I would not be questioning it and looking at other possibilities. 

 

So please can we now all return to normal and just accept that at this stage of the process with the fire brigade just stating it was caused by a diesel car is not conclusive proof, which is exactly what I have been trying to point but it seems you all have accepted that it is 100% certain a diesel fire. 

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, Warrior193 said:

Flash point of Diesel can be even lower if contaminated with other fuels - I recall seeing tests where flash point was found to be down to near room temperatures!

But then the diesel Range Rover would not be working would it because the engine would have been destroyed by the mix igniting way too early.

 

A bit like me many years when I had loads of petrol engined cars and when I had my first diesel, my rush one time to fill up, I fill with petrol, I just about drove a few hundreds yards before the car died completely and had to be towed to South Mimms AA service centre, I had much egg on my face trying explain myself.

Edited 15 October, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[J.R.]

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Doubt what I'm saying, check it out with diesel fitters and see how they respond.

 

Its not that I doubt what you said, I know that your words I quoted were rubbish

 

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Diesel only burns when it is in the engine cylinder under the massive compression that diesel engines have to have

 

and were nothing to do with a mechanic checking for a misfire and everything to do with the pool of burning diesel shown in the photos of the car park fire, a fuel which you say can only burn in an engine cylinder under massive compression to support your contention that the flames are from a lithium battery pack.

 

I honestly think you dont know half the time what you are writing or what you have written, even when people quote it directly you go off on some tangent.

n people quote it directly you go off on some tangent.

Edited 15 October, 2023 by J.R.

[J.R.]

double posting

Edited 15 October, 2023 by J.R.

[Graham Butcher]

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

 

Its not that I doubt what you said, I know that your words I quoted were rubbish

 

 

and were nothing to do with a mechanic checking for a misfire and everything to do with the pool of burning diesel shown in the photos of the car park fire, a fuel which you say can only burn in an engine cylinder under massive compression to support your contention that the flames are from a lithium battery pack.

 

I honestly think you dont know half the time what you are writing or what you have written, even when people quote it directly you go off on some tangent.

Not good enough repeating it twice then, thought you'd go for third attempt 

[Stonekeeper]

21 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Before I kick this into touch, allow me to demonstrate how the DVLA information for the registration number linked to this car at the centre of Luton fire can be misleading everyone into believing it to be a pure diesel and thus not questioning it any further. If the car in the photos and videos for arguments’ sake, was a Tesla then nobody would be questioning it being an electric car that caused the fire, because the car is easily identified, maybe not enough to identify the model, but the make would be clear, fair enough?

 

Well what about this RR then, Auto Trader says its a RR diesel MHEV but DVLA say its a just a diesel, so they clearly list by what they consider to be the vehicles main motive power source.

 

In the case of the Tesla, Auto Trader state an its EV (silly as we all know its an EV) and this time DVLA show it as an electric vehicle.

 

Does this now settle things down again, as it clearly shows there is some element of doubt as to the actual cause of the fire? If those two videos taken on mobile phones had not been taken and shared, showing the fire's actually behaviour, then I would not be questioning it and looking at other possibilities. 

 

So please can we now all return to normal and just accept that at this stage of the process with the fire brigade just stating it was caused by a diesel car is not conclusive proof, which is exactly what I have been trying to point but it seems you all have accepted that it is 100% certain a diesel fire. 

Why not just wait for the results of the investigation.

 

I am intrigued that you think the Fire investigators will only have access to the public database for Tax and Mot status.

 

Could they not possibly have access to registration document details?

 

And the ability to talk to the owner?

 

In cases were ev's have caught fire the drivers have been seen to rush to the press with their story, haven't seen that yet either.

 

As i said earlier i am not discounting the hybrid possibility but would now be very surprised if it turned out to be the case

[wyx087]

2 hours ago, Warrior193 said:

Flash point of Diesel can be even lower if contaminated with other fuels - I recall seeing tests where flash point was found to be down to near room temperatures!

That diesel must have been combined with Li-on battery. Surely!

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, well aware of the diesel heaters, some Superb's I think can be specified in certain countries with them, but the diesel needs to be vaporised and leaking diesel from a fuel tank for instance is not, and chucking a lit match into it, the match is more than likely going to be snuffed out by the diesel.

Ah yes, diesel in fuel tank doesn't combust because it wouldn't lit with match, it must mean it's not a diesel vehicle. Great logic

 

25 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Before I kick this into touch, allow me to demonstrate how the DVLA information for the registration number linked to this car at the centre of Luton fire can be misleading everyone into believing it to be a pure diesel and thus not questioning it any further.

So you think the fire dept must have had the same video, didn't question eye witness, didn't seek out and interview vehicle owner, and surely didn't have more evidence than us.

 

As I said, biased. Anything to justify your original baseless assertions.

[wyx087]

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because JLR made a different model of MHEV back in 2013. (full size Land Rover, size is vastly different to what's in the videos). So now you're an expert on car recognition from a small poor definition phone footage, shot from a distance and in a smoky atmosphere. And once again, is not what I was saying either.

Only able to see the size of vehicle is obviously not a full size Range Rover. JLR did not make any other MHEV back then.

Also, it was a petrol hybrid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_Rover

Small SUV Evoque hybrid was introduced in 2018: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_Rover_Evoque

 

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because car interior has pressure building up, despite you previously said EV battery fires vent sideways. Yes EV battery fires do vent sideways and in the front on video, this can be seen happening and if the car interior is already on fire then pressure in side the car would be building up, news flash hot air expands. I have seen plenty of ICE cars where the windows blow out, it happens in all fires, even house fires, get real. So once again you made the false connection that because there is smoke inside the car, that I'm claiming it is an EV?

  So you are saying you purposefully stated hybrid battery under the seat and smoke in cabin in the same paragram. But afterwards you claim there was no connection between battery and smoke inside the car.

15 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes the location of the small hybrid battery is under the floor, the front passenger floor on the left towards the engine bay......... there is smoke coming from beneath the bonnet and also from the cars interior which suggests that pressure was building up inside the car forcing smoke out and also a sign that the windows were about to blow out.

 

Another backtracking in attempt to cover up biases that you can't hide?

[Graham Butcher]

@wyx087 Once again making it up as you go, please read what is written, I went it over a few times to try and make sure it was clear, Oh yes, obviously it's Li-on battery because car interior has pressure building up, despite you previously said EV battery fires vent sideways those are your words and I wrote after those was explaining that the car interior was also on fire. I still have not said anywhere that it was 100% a Li-on fire that caused the major fire, but once again you think I have.

 

I'm beginning to understand why some other members have you on their blocked list 🙄

[wyx087]

You keep saying everything I made up, despite the evidence to the contrary in my previous post.

You keep saying you never said Li-on was the cause, but you made the very original connection despite definitive statement from official source and video evidence that it was a diesel vehicle.

 

Feel free to block me, if you'd rather feed on those youtube conspiracy theory videos.......

[@Lee]

I think we need to explore the possibility that the Range Rover was equipped with an experimental warp core and what happened was a small warp core breach.

It's certainly looks like it opened a rift into a parallel universe for some people.

[Warrior193]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

But then the diesel Range Rover would not be working would it because the engine would have been destroyed by the mix igniting way too early.

 

A bit like me many years when I had loads of petrol engined cars and when I had my first diesel, my rush one time to fill up, I fill with petrol, I just about drove a few hundreds yards before the car died completely and had to be towed to South Mimms AA service centre, I had much egg on my face trying explain myself.

I once had a boat mis-fuelled with petrol (Volvo turbo-diesel) - ended up with estimated 40/60 mix! - engine ran slightly hot at full throttle, but only discovered mis-fuel, after several hours running, when I checked the tank. Fortunately, resulted in no discernible damage to the engine.    

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

Why not just wait for the results of the investigation.

 

I am intrigued that you think the Fire investigators will only have access to the public database for Tax and Mot status.

 

Could they not possibly have access to registration document details?

 

And the ability to talk to the owner?

 

In cases were ev's have caught fire the drivers have been seen to rush to the press with their story, haven't seen that yet either.

 

As i said earlier i am not discounting the hybrid possibility but would now be very surprised if it turned out to be the case

No I don't dispute that at all. I always have said from the start, it is the way that the fire can be seen to behave in the video, that is what made ask "WHAT IF", because the way the fire looked was not what I would have expected, given my firemen experience and training. 

 

In the first interview on film, Andrew Hopkinson Chief Fire Officer said that early indications were that it is wasn't an electric car but he stumbled as he said  that didn't at any other point in the interview. I was happy with that until I saw that leaked video from a mobile phone, and it occurred to me that he like me had his doubts but was convinced by the type of car, i.e., not being an instantly recognisable electric car, and hence why he said what he did.

 

I also said that we need to wait to see the full investigation report, for the true verdict.

[Graham Butcher]

23 minutes ago, Warrior193 said:

I once had a boat mis-fuelled with petrol (Volvo turbo-diesel) - ended up with estimated 40/60 mix! - engine ran slightly hot at full throttle, but only discovered mis-fuel, after several hours running, when I checked the tank. Fortunately, resulted in no discernible damage to the engine.    

Yeah, trouble is with mine, it was more like 80% petrol to 20% diesel, to make it worse I was filling up because I was on my way to Birmingham for a job interview.

[classic]

A good few threads on the Octavia section of Octavia 3 models destroying themselves by fire. No shortage in my experience of jcb fastracs destroying themselves by fire.

All vehicles road, rail, water, air,  whatever have set on fire. If it’s on fire then the diesel tank will eventually go bang, if it’s petrol the tank will eventually go bang, if it’s electric with an x tens of kw battery that will eventually go bang,  jet aircraft will explode. 
Now, horse and carts, they’re pretty safe fire wise.

[Stonekeeper]

 

[Ootohere]

I really am now loosing interest in this 'Truth about electric cars'  which has now gone all 'possibly a hybrid' and such guff.

 

I want to use the term used by the artist formally knows as @KenONeill,   This is supposedly about Scalextric cars.

So they can burn, burn hot, even burn liquid fuel if they are range extenders. 

 

It is how it is and it will be politicians and civil servants that make decisions on parking and storage and all that guff, nobody on here though.

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

You keep saying everything I made up, despite the evidence to the contrary in my previous post.

You keep saying you never said Li-on was the cause, but you made the very original connection despite definitive statement from official source and video evidence that it was a diesel vehicle.

 

Feel free to block me, if you'd rather feed on those youtube conspiracy theory videos.......

Your evidence is flawed, you read to much into it that was not what I meant nor was what I said 😠

 

I said what I did as a result of the definitive statement from official source and video evidence that it was a diesel vehicle, because it was A too early for a definitive statement, they have not had the time to conduct a investigation yet, the structure is not safe to do so. The video showed a car from the Land Rover group of cars, the number plate was not clearly visible beyond all doubt and the fire as I keep explaining and you ignore what I say, did not like a diesel fire.

 

The only conspiracy theory here as far as I'm concerned is coming from you with the amount of energy you're putting into this to make me see it as a diesel fire it appears that you're desperate to get this to be accepted with question to be as stated because it takes any pressure your biased electric basis. 

 

If you think I've got this whole fire thing wrong, then why don't just leave me out on a limb with my thoughts that something is not quite as it seems and wait for the completed report in due course to see if anything changes. I'm pretty sure that others are pretty bored with this now.

 

As to blocking you, I've already said that I haven't blocked anyone yet, and I'm active in many forums and also on the admin team of some and still never blocked or banned anyone from those either. We can all learn from each other, but we have to respect each other as well.

Edited 15 October, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

The BYD Seagull is going in the right direction, too small for me, but has all the over the top bits stripped out to keep the price more affordable and while I don't like the interior, it's very heart warning to the return of some of the buttons and knobs with less touch screen controls take your eyes off the road.

[wyx087]

43 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I said what I did as a result of the definitive statement from official source and video evidence that it was a diesel vehicle, because it was A too early for a definitive statement, they have not had the time to conduct a investigation yet, the structure is not safe to do so. The video showed a car from the Land Rover group of cars, the number plate was not clearly visible beyond all doubt and the fire as I keep explaining and you ignore what I say, did not like a diesel fire.

 

The only conspiracy theory here as far as I'm concerned is coming from you with the amount of energy you're putting into this to make me see it as a diesel fire it appears that you're desperate to get this to be accepted with question to be as stated because it takes any pressure your biased electric basis. 

 

If you think I've got this whole fire thing wrong, then why don't just leave me out on a limb with my thoughts that something is not quite as it seems and wait for the completed report in due course to see if anything changes. I'm pretty sure that others are pretty bored with this now.

Sure, sure, keep going with your back tracking, smear campaign and adding doubt to a clear cut case.

 

You first questioned whether it is hybrid. Then placed doubt into people's head about whether it is a converted EV. Finally, now you are back tracking to say the official statement couldn't possibly be correct, because ....... you know better.

 

Look at the amount of words typed, you are putting in a lot more energy digging your own hole. I've only been pointing out the official statements and your flawed logic. You obviously have an axe to grind, perhaps been listening to too much youtube nutjobs?

 

I'm also very bored with this, and with you. You had my respect right up until this fire incident. You are free to keep digging your hole to justify your own twisted reasoning that it might be an EV. Fell free to continue your smear campaign against logical reasoning and facts.

[Graham Butcher]

13 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Sure, sure, keep going with your back tracking, smear campaign and adding doubt to a clear cut case.

 

You first questioned whether it is hybrid. Then placed doubt into people's head about whether it is a converted EV. Finally, now you are back tracking to say the official statement couldn't possibly be correct, because ....... you know better.

 

Look at the amount of words typed, you are putting in a lot more energy digging your own hole. I've only been pointing out the official statements and your flawed logic. You obviously have an axe to grind, perhaps been listening to too much youtube nutjobs?

 

I'm also very bored with this, and with you. You had my respect right up until this fire incident. You are free to keep digging your hole to justify your own twisted reasoning that it might be an EV. Fell free to continue your smear campaign against logical reasoning and facts.

Oh good grief.

 

I'm done with this now.